Woman's Survival

In my opinion, women are equal in life but not in function.

While I agree with this basic premise I also think that in some arenas women are more than equal by the very discriminatory system which is in play in this social structure.

Some laws are based on "the law of the reasonable man", ie, what would a reasonable man do in this same circumstance?

I have never heard of this law or premise. However I dont believe this premise sanctions murder..no matter who is doing it or what the circumstances. I am also not sure that in this case the term reasonable man..does not mean men as in the family of men...meaning both women and men. Otherwise you leave it open to the double standard which I am so often trying to put light upon.
Also Whitewave..I dont see this as an action of a perfectly reasonable woman. In the arena of woman hood it is quickly going downhill..as evidenced by the decline in female morality in the last five to seven years. Most people dont notice it but I can see the trend declining quickly...into a pitfall. The events in Texas where that woman drowned her children (5 as I recall)is textbook as was the reaction of the courts. I knew this would wax worse and worse back when that woman in South Carolina ,or was it Georgia, drowned her two children in the back of her car and tried to blame it on someone else. As I recall this womans name was Smith...dont recall the first name.
Are all women like this ..no they are not but it is becoming more and more obvious...to the point it cannot be covered up politically anymore.

I do agree that women tend to be more manipulative to accomplish thier goals...however I disagree that men are more competitive. To me women are no less competitive ..they just often use different tools to get the results they desire.

The need of some men to physically subdue another human being and exert their will in the most dehumanizing manner has nothing to do with wanting or getting basic needs met.

I dont entirely ...again....agree with this statement since I also see women doing this very thing and using different tools to accomplish this to get basic needs met at the expense and labor of men. It is in fact physical/psychological subdueing another person. It is also to me...when I see men who have lived under this system..without being able to think it through or vocalize it for what is is...dehumanizing. This is why I often say..what a dumb bunch of men in this country. Many of these men are complaining in my company at work..but they are way to dumb to see it for what it is. They are complaining that they are tired of coming in second or third place ..while turning over huge amounts of thier time and labors with no relief in sight. In short they are complaining about being dehumanized. None of the women in their lives are intrested in this complaint ..they just want the goodies to keep coming.
But it is not possible in this social structure to dehumanize a man..only women can be dehumanized.....everyone knows this. The moral and ethical crime of the lowest type is to dehumanize a woman..not a man..impossible to dehumainize a man..especially in a partriarchial society..yes??? Everyone knows it is a Patriarchial society we live under yes.....not!!!! Understand yet about disposability and expendability??

A woman may be willing to barter the comforts of her lap for the comforts of your watertight roof but that is still "substance for substance" or "value for value".

I have a problem with this concept. A big problem.!! I did not elaborate on this in my previous post. I dont consider this value for value. It is not possible to me. Nor substance for substance. In normal times or survival situation X.
The whole line of thinking here is based on the concept that the women has all the value in her lap and the man has no value in his lap. Her sexuality has all the value in the marketplace and his sexuality has no value in the marketplace. Therefore it is incumbant on a man to try out eagerly for a womans sexuality/approval. A man begins from a position of being way behind from the starting gate. With most men I would agree with you ..because the innate stupidity of most men in this arena is ...really ..really dumb.

I have learned over time that if I must work and produce for a woman and her kids to my extinction or for sex...it is dehumanizing. To come in constantly second place or further back when producing first fruits is dehumanizing. I require first fruits from a woman..and sex is not it..understand???

I dont have a problem with this either unless women try to apply this to me. Most men will plod on and on and on and on ad nauseum without ever figuring out this angle or reality. Hey.......how about those LA Lakers???

I have played this buisness out with different women and found out what it means psychologically. It covers much more area than most men can even imagine in the female psyche. Dating older women helped to clarify much.

Our functions in life are greatly determined by our physical abilities. Our attitudes and behaviors are very much determined by our functional capacities. For example: as a man, your attitude toward sex will be very much different than a womans' because you don't have the ability to get pregnant, miscarry, die in childbirth, get knocked up and abandoned, lose your good figure (marketability) due to "baby fat", etc. Therefore your behavior in that regard will be different than a womans'.

My attitude twords sex and sexuality is different from many of the men I know. It is also different from many of the women I know.

I dont worry about those items in the list of things that women are wont to worry so much about because they are not paramount to me and my psyche. I am not that intrested in taking on alot of a womans insecuritys to the detriment of myself or my labors/life. I prefer women who are secure in themselves...and not looking to a man to take on a career in thier insecuritys..children or no children. I call this High Maintenance.
I prefer women who can be a help meet ..not a help yourself meet.
The facts I know are that a woman who can take care of herself and her children is a woman who can come to a man for love only. The very thing so many women complain is in fact drastically missing from their lives. But do they in fact come to a man for this...love only??? I mean in good times or in Situation X. Think this through carefully.
Do you see most women with money marring down the economic ladder or marrying up the economic ladder. How about in Situation X...will there be any difference?? It will still be the man with the most "P word."

Potential.

Nothing new here...normal times or Situation X.

Nothing new in Situation X either ...in that I dont think most men will be any smarter than in todays "normal times."

I do however agree with you on one thing here..

She better hope she's got more than that to work with or she will become a party favor. A woman who can pull her own weight in the area of manual labor and has a variety of skills upon which to draw (first and foremost-self defense) has a much better chance of surviving (even in peace times).

I think that it is great that you have taught your daughters such skills...even self defense.
I love a good meal prepared by a woman who cares and a peaceful quiet relaxing atmosphere in which to savor it. A good foot and back rub are great too after a days work. A rare commodity in the marketplace for a man now days...who knows the difference.

Gotta go now...been up all night working 12 hour shifts. Back again tonight for more of the same.
Thanks for your post.
Orangetom

How to Quote

[edit on 2-2-2007 by worldwatcher]

The whole line of thinking here is based on the concept that the women has all the value in her lap and the man has no value in his lap. Her sexuality has all the value in the marketplace and his sexuality has no value in the marketplace. Therefore it is incumbant on a man to try out eagerly for a womans sexuality/approval. A man begins from a position of being way behind from the starting gate.

Frankly, this is a flip-flop from the 'traditional' patriarchal way of viewing women and their (general) value...

Feminism has switched it, which is a nice change. But I don't think it's correct overall. Value should be placed equally. Yes, females have the kids, but we can't have kids by ourselves!

I prefer women who are secure in themselves...and not looking to a man to take on a career in thier insecuritys..children or no children. I call this High Maintenance.

While I agree that no one should have to take on someone else's insecurities to the detriment of themselves, I cannot say that I have EVER encountered anyone who was completely and absolutely secure. (So happy hunting.)

I think there's a marked difference in whether someone turns to you for support, or uses you as a crutch. In learning to handle insecurities, we need support. Every single person has to learn how to deal with their insecurities while being supported, and every single person has to learn to support someone while they learn how to deal with their insecurities. (give and take - the foundation of social relations)
But if someone depends on you to handle their insecurities, then, you're right, it can become a detriment and it is not healthy to either party.

Considering your response in context:

For example: as a man, your attitude toward sex will be very much different than a womans' because you don't have the ability to get pregnant, miscarry, die in childbirth, get knocked up and abandoned, lose your good figure (marketability) due to "baby fat", etc. Therefore your behavior in that regard will be different than a womans'.

I dont worry about those items in the list of things that women are wont to worry so much about because they are not paramount to me and my psyche.

I'm not entirely sure that your argument, as related to the original quote, is valid.

As a single man, no, they are not paramount to you. You're a man!

And yes, a woman should be secure in understanding that these things might very well happen.

However, if you were seriously involved with a woman, then this 'list of things that women are wont to worry about' should at least be someplace in your focus. No, not necessarily paramount, but you _cannot_ deny them either. As her partner, you have to help her feel secure (ensure security) about these things, right?

I.e.: If my man were not at least conscious about the chances of me getting pregnant, as well as the consequences and risks therein, then I'd consider him utterly insensitive. I do NOT ask that he be constantly aware of these chances and make them the focal point of his life. But he'd darn well better be aware of them...

While you may be secure that you wouldn't get a lady pregant and scram, that is a very real worry for her. (all support gone in a matter of seconds) We'd all like to think that we're secure with our partners, but we cannot deny the very real possibility of being abandoned... (And for a man or woman to be abandoned to care for a newborn by themselves, that is a serious situation!)

I do not consider my consciousness about the chances as an insecurity, but rather an admittance of reality.

Likewise, in sit x, you'd better be aware of this list -- because having a kid in such circumstances is a serious situation. Having a child and the woman dying in childbirth would be even worse.
Unless, of course, you and your partner were celebate so as to avoid these issues, then, obviously, this list becomes null and void.

I have learned over time that if I must work and produce for a woman and her kids to my extinction or for sex...it is dehumanizing. To come in constantly second place or further back when producing first fruits is dehumanizing. I require first fruits from a woman..and sex is not it..understand???

No, I do not understand.

Maybe I'm completely missing what you're saying, so please take my words with a grain of sugar.

If you're with a woman who has kids (not your kids), then in her mind, her kids _should_ take first place. I might be alone on this, but whenever I have kids -- they come first. (And, if you accept them as your children, the same mindset should follow.)

Now, if you're talking about a woman _using_ you for a paycheck (financial security), taking the money without emotional compensation, that's a different kettle of fish. Indeed, she would properly be classified as a 'money whore', or, for short, a whore -- which is dehumanizing in its own right. (So, in the end, both of you would be dehumanizing each other, and yourselves for allowing it to happen.)

I love a good meal prepared by a woman who cares and a peaceful quiet relaxing atmosphere in which to savor it. A good foot and back rub are great too after a days work. A rare commodity in the marketplace for a man now days...who knows the difference.

'Tis equally rare for a woman who knows the difference.



And as far as potential... meh. Everyone has the potential to do anything. Potential is not a very good meter of the person's inherent worth.

I've got the potential to build a house. Goody, and yay me.
But, what good does that potential do if I don't ever utilize it to build a house?

I'd rather choose the one who has the potential, and then works towards actualizing that potential.

[edit on 1-2-2007 by Diseria]

Everyone’s life experiences are different, important and valid. I have learned much from the experiences of others which is why I share my own. We are not shaped by any one experience, but by the collection of all experiences.

Dark Elf, this is re-affirming, and I whole-heartedly agree.

The thought/curiosity I had (which prompted me to write my original question) that perhaps the edge of the willingness to be almost 'agro' about self-defense was sharpened because of military service.

Obviously being 'agro' about self-defense is not necessarily related to military service. However, military service might heighten that sense, almost knocking it out of wack. (Truthfully, I think I've seen too many movies involving characters who've taken their war experiences too far, or the experiences themselves have permanently warped them...)


I do not mean my explanation as a 'I did not believe you' or 'questioning your integrity' anything of that sort. In fact, I wouldn't have asked if I had any doubt of your integrity!

As always, I hold you in high regard. *humbly bows*

But, I do like exploring all facets of people, and I've no personal reference regarding military service. (I tried to join the marines when I was 17, but they refused me because of my migraines. Since that point, I've never tried to enlist again because I simply do not want the knowledge and possible experiences that they're offering... chaulk it up to too many movies, I guess... )



Your re-telling of the sacrifice of children is enlightening... I've heard the same story, but always with the follow-up comment: They did it because the soldiers would never suspect a little kid... Which is true, but not the entire truth.
Sacrificing a child in that regard is no small price... and it gives me a lot more respect for those people. Maybe it wasn't the most correct way of going about stating their message, but damn if it wasn't a powerful and forceful means! (a tale from such a point of view deserves to be written...)


Thank you for answering me.

OT,
When I read your responses I can't help wishing we were at Barnes and Noble or someplace where we could swap philosophical beliefs all day over latte's and oversized cookies. You sound like you've had some hard lessons but that they've made you stronger. I admire that as I do from all the posters here on this thread. What a great bunch of people!

One aspect of the survival scenario I'd like to see considered for discussion is the one in which teotwawki DOESN'T occur in an obvious, definitive event/moment. Out moment to "bug out" may occur gradually, with us noticing that the water is getting near the boiling point but still we cling to hope until it's too late to save ourselves. I look around at the political climate, the microchipping cropping up in credit cards and passports, the daily erosions of our once treasured freedoms, the damned "greeter" at wallyworld that won't let me leave before insisting on checking my bag against my receipt and I think: how much worse does it need to get before it's time to take a stand? Will I wait "one more year" until I'm more financially ready to "bug out"? What if gun confiscation starts in 6 months? And WITHOUT PRIOR NOTICE? Just bang on your door at 3:00 am and shout, "Throw out your weapons and no one gets hurt".

Two days ago my son came home from school and when I asked how his day went he said, "well we got our fingerprints taken today". I was livid! I specifically called and spoke to the principal, emailed his teacher and wrote a note to say that I did NOT want my child fingerprinted. They poofed that off and did it anyway. What happened to my parental rights? When did MY child become the ward of the state? I don't recall a specific moment in time when I was no longer the voice of authority in my child's life. But apparently it has come and gone and I am just the "guardian" of "state property". Most people I've complained to about this indignity have just shrugged their shoulders and said, "what's the big deal"? Am I the only one that thinks we need to be in "survival mode" even now?

Whitewave,

That's, really, the peak of the debate. Do we pack up and leave, or stay? What if teotwawki never happens? What if it happens the next day?

Truly, one of the few times I really wish I were psychic...

The only 'solution' that I've come up with is to move out to a farm. May not be the best option, depending on how the shtf, but at least I'd have a homestead, crops, and be the # away from people's immediate reactions...

Of course, this assumes that banks will give me a loan to buy the lot, and that I'll find a good job to cover my butt in the mean time... I've got about $90k worth of student loans to pay back (60k my parents took on that I intend to pay back in full) - Do I pay? Why work and pay if the sky's gonna fall? ...then again, what if it never does?





I'm guessing that your son goes to a public skool... since I haven't heard of this crap happening in private skools. (Not to say that it doesn't go on... I just haven't read any articles about it.)

Skools have been pushing the limits, as far as I'm concerned. (In fact, in light of this skool=parent crap, I've decided to home-skool my kids... besides that, at least I know they'll friggin' learn something!) Then again, the states and even the feds have been pushing and breaching the limits of parents...

A reaction to parents not living up to their responsibilities? A working 'the state knows better than you do' model? Is it an attempt to mitigate the problems of individuals over the well-being of the student body? (...that last one kinda scares me. It's supposed to be a good theory, but it doesn't work when the logic is twisted...)

Did you find out what the purpose was for the fingerprinting in the first place? _That_ will tell you more than anything... nevermind the lack of reaction from the faculty. (what have other parents said?)

According to hoil and toil, the new ID cards will be coming out in 2008. I'm not sure how I feel about them, frankly... but the worst part is that I don't know to what extent this will be 'just the beginning'... If we passively accept this, what else will they do? ...more correctly, what else will we, the people, allow them to do to us?

I was told that the fingerprinting was for my child's "protection". (isn't the loss of all our freedoms for our own good?) My retort was that having his fingerprints on file does NOT protect him from kidnappers, child molesters, the boogey man, unabombers, etc. It MAY help to identify his dead remains but it doesn't protect him from becoming dead remains. Small comfort and great sacrifice of privacy.
I did homeschool 3 of my children for a while but working 60 hours a week, commuting 10, homeschooling 3 different grade levels, doing all the cooking, cleaning, yard work, laundry, shopping, paying all the bills, etc. left me a little tired and cranky. I was married at the time but got no help. He "worked for a living" (not sure what it was he thought I did) and shouldn't have to do any "woman's work" at home. I finally told him that "I could bring home the bacon or I could fry it up but I'll be damned if I'm gonna do both. What in the world do I need you for?"
I suspect that there will always be inequality between the sexes and that is of especial concern to women in survival situations.
As for knowing when/where to bug out, I have considered the possibilities/options for years. One person of limited means has as few choices in survival times as in peace times. After acquiring a shed and a uhaul full of survival gear for every eventuality, I finally concluded that, in the end, you can't know what you'll really need and survival depends largely in just trusting in G_D.
Most of the scenarios that survivalists talk about are sudden events, catastrophes, natural disasters, pinpoint moments when you say, "aha! this is it!" Even if you have all the survival gear you need, it's not going to do you much good if you're on vacation or at work. (Darn! if i'd known a biochemical warfare was going to happen today, I would've worn my gas mask).
Hope for the best and expect the worst and you'll never be surprised or disappointed.

Originally posted by whitewave
I was told that the fingerprinting was for my child's "protection". (isn't the loss of all our freedoms for our own good?) My retort was that having his fingerprints on file does NOT protect him from kidnappers, child molesters, the boogey man, unabombers, etc. It MAY help to identify his dead remains but it doesn't protect him from becoming dead remains. Small comfort and great sacrifice of privacy.

That is absolutely shocking!

Is this that program CHIP that the Masons were and are pushing for?

I did homeschool 3 of my children for a while but working 60 hours a week, commuting 10, homeschooling 3 different grade levels, doing all the cooking, cleaning, yard work, laundry, shopping, paying all the bills, etc. left me a little tired and cranky. I was married at the time but got no help. He "worked for a living" (not sure what it was he thought I did) and shouldn't have to do any "woman's work" at home. I finally told him that "I could bring home the bacon or I could fry it up but I'll be damned if I'm gonna do both. What in the world do I need you for?"

Similar experience here.

Minus the schooling and the ex wife didn`t work but everything else is about spot on,I came home one day to fix myself some lunch from work and prepare the new born twin boys formula`s to find the ex in her usual position,laying on the floor under a blanket still in her pajama`s in front of the tv watching soaps.

And when I saw the two boys naked on the floor (in winter mind you)in the kitchen rolling in their own waste,I flipped,with no more Mr "nice guy"I told her to get off her fat lazy a** and get a life.

Long story short,she did,she took the boys and has been running since.Being true to her word that she has my boys and is going to wreck my life.I havn`t seen the boys in over thirteen years.they are now 15 and if It wasn`t for seeing them for an afternoon when they were 18 months old it would be over 14 and a half years.

She hasn`t wrecked my life though and far from it,just me being a father to the boys.

There`s the difference a women by law usually ends up with full custody leaving the male as nothing more than a credit card and occasional visiting rights,but every single woman will demand its because women deserve it.

They even pay here in Australia now $4000 to the parent/parents for a new born,making this type of single mother even more common.

I once heard an old lady say on TV many years ago "the best way a mother can love her children is love her husband and their father".That type of thinking is virtually dead.

Because there are so many men who dont deserve their wifes love even if she does understand that her husband is very important to her and to their children,and there are so many women out there that think the children come first over her husband or are used as leverage to get their way.

I have heard it said and I agree "if your in a relationship for give and take your in it for the wrong reasons,it should be give and give"Though there are limits that go beyond bearable that no one should just have to accept imo.

Pity the courts or the public dont take these things into account on who`s a better parent and where the children are safer just because there`s prejudice against men.Which is a detrement to the children,so the situation as time goes on gets worse.

[edit on 1-2-2007 by gps777]

Question for the Ladies of the thread.....

Do you fish?

If so...

where do you usually fish,in the rivers or ocean or both?.

What do you catch,type and usual expected weight?

Preference of fishing style,eg rod and reel,net,fly fishing.natural bait vs lure,boat or surf.Trolling?


If not why not?





[edit on 1-2-2007 by gps777]

The fingerprinting was done by one of those "child ID" programs that's promoted as ensuring your child's protection. HA! Do they really think we're all that stupid?
My ex wasn't in the least bit interested in his children until he got served divorce papers then he put on a suit, got up on the stand and told the judge that I was a prostitute and drug dealer, that he'd caught me in bed with a woman (!), that i had a convict boyfriend, that I tied our infants' legs together with telephone cord to keep him in his highchair, that I only bathed once a week, etc. I was scolded severely for these insults to the marriage although he offered ZERO proof of any of these outlandish claims. My lawyer told me that you can't prove a negative (true) then proceeded to ask me if any of it were true! During one of the breaks, I asked my ex what had gone so horribly wrong with our fairy tale marriage. We were happy and he loved me. You can't fake that type of response to another person for as long as we were together. He thoughtfully considered for a moment and then said, "well, I guess you didn't nag me enough". WTF? Honest to god, that was his complaint. I got sole custody of our son (he said under oath that he didn't WANT our daughters!) For 6 years now I've had to watch him ruin our son and the courts couldn't care less. He was a decent man until he lost his flippin' mind. Men should have more rights in custody decisions and women are not always the best parent by default of ovaries. However; a man who is a single parent has a MUCH better chance of finding another partner than a single mom and, ultimately the best interests of the child should be the deciding factor in custody cases. (It's not but it should be). Not sure that all came out like I meant it to-so be gentle in your response-the wounds are still fresh here.

Fishing! *perks up* I fish in lakes, ocean, creek beds, ponds-anywhere that has a fish that will bite. Caught an electric eel (at least that's what I think it was sparking on my line) off a pier in St. Augustine, Fl. Lots of ponds around here with catfish, trout, crappie, etc. I use a zephyr. Pitchforked a salmon once in Oregon during spawning season in the creek that ran behind my house. Found out later that it's illegal to catch salmon that way. Oops. Too late to throw it back. Had to eat the evidence. lol.
Fishing is something that even the kids can do so they come with me and we make a day of it. Personally, I think fishing is an excuse for men to nap and drink beer all day. (yes, I'm "baiting" you.) Many women are afraid of guns, don't have the upper body strength to pull a bow and are too "directionally challenged" to build traps/snares but fishing can be learned by anyone in 15 minutes. Any helpful hints/advice for the constantly curious?

Originally posted by whitewave
Not sure that all came out like I meant it to-so be gentle in your response-the wounds are still fresh here.

No response is needed,I wasn`t arguing whitewave just sharing similar experience is all.

Its hard I know,it does get better though,the wounds or scars may always be there but they do heal over.Chin up as I know you are doing.

Fishing! *perks up*

I love fishing also,so does my Mrs but I normally fish now with my nephew,who has just recently come of age to get his license and a 4x4 like my own.We have a blast.

Lots of ponds around here with catfish, trout, crappie, etc. I use a zephyr.

A crappie?

zephyr is that a rod?.

Pitchforked a salmon once in Oregon during spawning season in the creek that ran behind my house. Found out later that it's illegal to catch salmon that way. Oops. Too late to throw it back. Had to eat the evidence. lol.

,but why would that be illegal?is it much more humane to just let them suffocate to death?

Personally, I think fishing is an excuse for men to nap and drink beer all day. (yes, I'm "baiting" you.)

And I nearly struck at the bait to,you`ll have a hard job reeling me in though if I did.So make sure you have a marlin chair and seat belt,not to mention plenty of water to cool the line coming off your reel,right up until you hear *PING*

Any helpful hints/advice for the constantly curious?

I`d have to know your type of fish.

Local knowledge is always great for the types that are available,best locations and food they normally eat as to select the right bait or lure.

Then rod and line selection,though you can still be successful with just a hand line in a shtf situation.

A throw net is handy for catching small bait fish,digging for worms is also a good choice of bait for most fish imo.

If people here havn`t fished before and survival of a situation x is a concern,then its a must to at least start learning or get out there and give it a go.

If sit x doesn`t happen,then you will have had lots of fun anyway.

[edit on 1-2-2007 by gps777]

WhitewaveI suspect that there will always be inequality between the sexes and that is of especial concern to women in survival situations.

There is an inherent paradox involved here... I try to maintain equality with my man. But, in order to convince myself that equality truly lives in our house, I have to keep track. And yet, it seems that if I'm keeping track, then there's obviously no equality... (If I were secure in our equality, why would I keep track?)

It's frustrating in its own right. (Nevermind the truth of the tabs.. )

gpsI have heard it said and I agree "if your in a relationship for give and take your in it for the wrong reasons,it should be give and give"Though there are limits that go beyond bearable that no one should just have to accept imo.

This plays into the idea of equality -- One should only be willing to give-give so long as the other person doesn't take-take. Why be nibblets for a parasite?
I'm a loyal girl (woman? when does one become the other?), and I've been loyal to the point of stupidity. But, I've learned that for as much as give-give endears me to hearts, it does not guarentee that the relationship can be considered 'equal'... If BOTH parties give-give, then life is peachy! Most times, that's not how it is, and in order to maintain equality, *sigh* you hafta learn to be selfish. (which seems so anti-equality... it really isn't, but it seems so...)

gpsI once heard an old lady say on TV many years ago "the best way a mother can love her children is love her husband and their father".That type of thinking is virtually dead.

Any idea when you heard her say that? Sounds like 50's to me...

Don't get me wrong: I agree with it - to a point. The best relationship that a child NEEDS to see is their parents' loving relationship. Won't argue there. However, I think there are lines that need to be drawn. I'll love my man forever, but I'm out if he _ever_ raises his hand to hit me, or cheats on me, or generally mistreats me or our child(ren). I expect the same of him.

They even pay here in Australia now $4000 to the parent/parents for a new born,making this type of single mother even more common.

Same in the US, depending on the state. I've seen lots of women who keep having children even though they cannot take care of them because they get welfare - more money for more kids, more money the younger the mother is, and if her daughter has a child -- they've hit a proverbial jackpot.

If I didn't have integrity, (*snaps* dang, my parents raised me wrong!) I'd suckle the state teet because those on welfare get better health/dental care than most other people who pay for it... Nevermind if you have a child! Then you and the baby are taken care of.


Whitewave & GPS

My heart goes out to you guys. If I have a quarter of the strength that you guys have shown via the tellings of your past, then I shall consider myself a lucky girl.. woman... whatever.


Now as to fishing - I've only been once. (And I'm fairly certain that we sat at the wrong end of the pond cuz we didn't catch a dang thing.)

I wouldn't mind going fishing, but I have no equipment, nor a good pond to go to, nor a vehicle to get me there, and no one willing to sit out for hours waiting for the little suckers. But, I have lotsa good books to read, and lotsa thoughts that'd make for seriously good conversation! (Oh yeah, but I feel bad hooking worms.. I know they're great bait, 'last meal' thing and all, but I love worms... they're just so cool!....

....Yes, I know, I'm a dork. I'm very well aware of it, and over the years, I've come to embrace my dork-dom. )


Speaking of dork, this dork hasta get to class.

I'll add more when I get back.

I havent much time as I must shove off again for another 12 hour shift.

This thread is going on into different arenas than was conceived in the original post on page 1.

However as far as I am concerned it is all survival ...good times or situation X or anything in between. Male and Female.

We seem to be moving into the arena of the psyche in survival. No problem here but I just dont have time to properly give the subject justice with the available time constraints.

I do however want to thank all of you for posting your views on this topic and I will be musing on this at work tonight when opportunity allows.

Thanks,
Orangetom

Originally posted by Diseria
Why be nibblets for a parasite?
I'm a loyal girl (woman? when does one become the other?), and I've been loyal to the point of stupidity. But, I've learned that for as much as give-give endears me to hearts, it does not guarentee that the relationship can be considered 'equal'... If BOTH parties give-give, then life is peachy! Most times, that's not how it is, and in order to maintain equality, *sigh* you hafta learn to be selfish. (which seems so anti-equality... it really isn't, but it seems so...)

Thing is as your well aware no two people are equal,it seems gone are the days or thinking that the marriage is bigger than those in it.

Its become the norm as something disposable.

I believe for the most part this epidemic of failed marriages is produced by the powers that be,if both husband and wife at least realize this,that there are forces that are trying to split them,then they have a better chance of survival together.

Well? thats one thing that helps anyway.

Any idea when you heard her say that? Sounds like 50's to me...

oh I agree.

Guessing here,about ten years ago,there were a group of women on tv all gas bagging about how crappie men are and as fathers husbands etc,the elder lady 60 odd yo said that quote as I believe she couln`t stand the conversation any longer.I seriously doubt she would have a perfect relationship herself,she was trying to help because now a days is not an improvement for families in general as compared to not so long ago.

I'll love my man forever, but I'm out if he _ever_ raises his hand to hit me, or cheats on me, or generally mistreats me or our child(ren). I expect the same of him.

These are things that you you can say now,but may be different if they ever happened.imho

Because I had to learn also there are far worse things than infidelity.My twin boys may not even be my own.Though this is not what caused the separation though it did contribute its part.

How would you feel about your partner,if he has the same limits as your putting on the success or failure of your love.

Can you slap his face,if he said something inconsiderate,does a sideward glance at another woman constitute unfaithfulness etc. and can you do the same etc etc

All I`m trying to say is sometimes its not so cut and dry and love for your partner or child is quit limitless if you love them.Doesn`t mean to say you wont argue or be silent when things are wrong,because love is also not being silent when they are wrong.

So love can be an arguement,just not stamping ones feet to get their own way for the sake of imature selfishness or need.

If I didn't have integrity, (*snaps* dang, my parents raised me wrong!) I'd suckle the state teet because those on welfare get better health/dental care than most other people who pay for it... Nevermind if you have a child! Then you and the baby are taken care of.

Interesting Diseria,I had no idea other countries did the same thing or suffered the same problems from this.

To quote this again....

Why be nibblets for a parasite?

Your teet is being suckled your the one paying for them to do it,those who do rape the system and use children in this way bleed it from the tax payers.

So I`m in agreeance here as well,though I`ll put up with more from a partner than I will from others bleeding from me.I cant stop others or the Gov but I make much much more noise about it.

Whitewave & GPS

My heart goes out to you guys. If I have a quarter of the strength that you guys have shown via the tellings of your past, then I shall consider myself a lucky girl.. woman... whatever.

Thanks for that

Though I would rather you slapped the back of my head for being so stupid to begin a relationship with her in the first place,so feel free to slap away.seriously.I`ve tried to myself but cant get a big enough swing.

....Yes, I know, I'm a dork. I'm very well aware of it, and over the years, I've come to embrace my dork-dom.

)

Speaking of dork, this dork hasta get to class.

Well dorks are good in my book then,and I`m assuming then your still fairly young?

I didn`t start trying or thinking until I left school,when I first came to ATS a couple of years ago,most could/would consider me illiterate,so this is my class to learn to put thought to paper.Because though my life I have only really worked with my hands.

You have a good head on your shoulders,so you have a huge head start on me.The one thing that disappoints me about learning better grammar etc is I liked the fact the one can be uneducated and rip an educated person a new one,because there are many dopey educated people out there that think education is a measure of intelligence.

So they underestimate the uneducated and thats where I feel most comfortable.Thats why I liked the cheesy grin on this avatar being slightly unveiled.

It sounds like you live inland away from the ocean,I`ve tried that and wasn`t happy,I love the beach (well Aussie here most of us do) and I would rather catch and eat a fish from the ocean,than say from a river in populated areas.

GPS,

These are things that you you can say now,but may be different if they ever happened.imho

Based on my previous ex's...

My ex cheated on me twice, and I forgave him both times, and because of that I have an std because I wanted sooo badly to be in-love and with someone.

I told my man that I have trust and faith in him. I'll always love him, but I draw the line. I will walk home if need be (and I live 1400 miles from 'home').

Because I had to learn also there are far worse things than infidelity.My twin boys may not even be my own.Though this is not what caused the separation though it did contribute its part.

I won't argue that there are far worse things, overall, than infidelity. However, I cannot put the same level of energy, trust, faith, et cetera, into the relationship knowing that he has so little respect for me.

We told each other that if our hearts ever went in another direction, we'd tell the other one before acting. To do otherwise just leads to bad blood...

How would you feel about your partner,if he has the same limits as your putting on the success or failure of your love.

I'm fine with it, frankly. He can take a hit much better than I can but it's the point of respect. We've both been cheated on, and done the cheating. It's not a game we want to play anymore. If he ever hit me, and my father found out, my father would drop everything and come out here with a shotgun. Nevermind my reaction... (it involves superglue - that's all I'm gonna say.)

Can you slap his face,if he said something inconsiderate,does a sideward glance at another woman constitute unfaithfulness etc. and can you do the same etc etc

I'd never slap him. (I've said it before, and I'll say it again: I've never raised my hand to another person in a malicious manner.)

He can look, I can look. There's a difference between looking and touching, between admiring/scoffing and flirting.

In fact, I found out today that he's got two ladies at work who are subtley trying to seduce him! *shrug* I trust him enough to tell me if he wants someone else. I trust him enough to let him go to work without me chained to his... um.. yeah.

If I cannot trust him, then there's no real relationship, imo.

As my grandfather put it: I'll walk next to you, and I'll fight next to you. I'll defend you when you can't defend yourself. But I am not going to fight over you.

Or, as I put it: We've joined as travellers on the same path. I'll enjoy your company, you enjoy mine. Whenever our paths separate, then so be it. But at least we'll know we had a good time.

All I`m trying to say is sometimes its not so cut and dry and love for your partner or child is quit limitless if you love them.Doesn`t mean to say you wont argue or be silent when things are wrong,because love is also not being silent when they are wrong.

So love can be an arguement,just not stamping ones feet to get their own way for the sake of imature selfishness or need.

We discuss, we debate. I think we've argued... *thinks*.... twice in the 4 years we've been together. We disagree on many things, but we both love a good debate.

Though I would rather you slapped the back of my head for being so stupid to begin a relationship with her in the first place,so feel free to slap away.seriously.I`ve tried to myself but cant get a big enough swing.

While I'm sure I could knock you ass over tea-kettle, I won't. However, I will offer a hug, and ask if you learned your lesson...

Life is about mistakes. If you didn't make that mistake with her, then it might have been with someone else, or the situation reversed...

There's no point to beating yourself up over something stupid (even stupendously retarded!) that's in the past. I'm learning to forgive myself, but I won't forget the lessons I've learned. (It's much harder to forgive the ex though... )

Your teet is being suckled your the one paying for them to do it,those who do rape the system and use children in this way bleed it from the tax payers.

So I`m in agreeance here as well,though I`ll put up with more from a partner than I will from others bleeding from me.I cant stop others or the Gov but I make much much more noise about it.

Touche...

Although, to be fair, I get my tax monies back because I don't make enough! (the blessings of being a college student...) Last year, I let them keep the money because I had to get food stamps before I found work.

And I agree - I put up with a lot from my man... and he puts up with a lot from me. Give and take, take and give.

However, I'm learning to stand up for myself at the same time. With my ex, I was (as one could colorfully put it) a doormat girlfriend. A puppy on a string, happy to have someone at the other end.

Now, I walk side-by-side with my man.

Well dorks are good in my book then,and I`m assuming then your still fairly young?

Well, mentally, I feel like I'm 40. Really, I'm 25. Yourself?

Don't worry about grammar... I'm going to graduate with a bachelor's degree in English, a minor in Philosophy, and I don't understand grammar.

(Seriously, I have no friggin' clue!! It's such a shame, and such a hallmark of the american 'education system' that it's pathetically funny..)

I liken intelligence to putty - education (which comes in many forms: institutions, life, et cetera) can give you tools and help you shape it, but whatever putty you've got is what you've got.


And right now, I live near a pond (which looks stagnant, btw)... I'm closer to the Atlantic than I was 3 years ago, but that's not saying much. (I'm originally from Milwaukee, WI, and right now I'm in Massachusetts.) I'd like to visit the ocean before I move back to the midwest, but I doubt we'll do any fishing. (with all the crap that gets into the earth's water, I'm not so sure that I'd *want* to eat anything from the ocean...)


Okay, I'm almost out of characters.



Edited to add: The censors didn't censor my lewd language? hrm...

[edit on 2-2-2007 by Diseria]

One last thing...

Thing is as your well aware no two people are equal,it seems gone are the days or thinking that the marriage is bigger than those in it.

I know that people aren't equal... that's what makes it great when you find someone to connect with.

The thing is that you should be able, together, to be equal. Covering each other's butts, picking up where they cannot, et cetera.

I don't demand perfection... I don't even demand 'normalcy'... (both are no fun!)

But, there has to be an average, so to speak, between the two parties if the relationship is going to work.

Good for you Diseria,I didn`t mean to push for personal info,but i`m happy to hear through bad experiences you learned valuable lessons which lead you to find someone worthy.

Originally posted by Diseria
As my grandfather put it: I'll walk next to you, and I'll fight next to you. I'll defend you when you can't defend yourself. But I am not going to fight over you.

Your grandfather and myself share the same belief.I think I would get or have gotten on well with him.

While I'm sure I could knock you ass over tea-kettle, I won't. However, I will offer a hug, and ask if you learned your lesson...

Yes I learned a lot,though it doesn`t take away the fact there are a couple of boys out there somewhere having multiple fathers and in between fatherless because of me.

For younger men these appendages we carry can lead us where our better judgment would like to let us.So its kind of a mistake that I knew I was making which makes it so much the worse.

But now I`m not as desperate as a dog trying to copulate with a cricket ball so to speak.I have always loved cricket(a little similar to baseball and same size ball) but have never loved it that much, I have seen a dog try and do that,its a funny and disturbing sight ,but I can kind of relate and I`m sure other men can to

Well, mentally, I feel like I'm 40. Really, I'm 25. Yourself?

Varies a bit,sometimes I feel ancient though most of the time I feel 25 when I`m 43.I just had to double check with the Mr`s to how old I am.Its easier to ask than do the calculations.I try and avoid knowing how old I am anyway.

I liken intelligence to putty - education (which comes in many forms: institutions, life, et cetera) can give you tools and help you shape it, but whatever putty you've got is what you've got.

Yes I like that,and its possible to have little putty compared to another but have more.

(with all the crap that gets into the earth's water, I'm not so sure that I'd *want* to eat anything from the ocean...)

Not sure about American waters but here the oceans are clean,well short distance from the mouth of the river anyway.

If then in a bug out situation what do you plan on being your main source of food?

Survival in sit x is going to depend on much more than having a good BOB, survival site, or supplies; your survival is going to depend on you. All of us carry baggage from the past. I carry a matched set of cynicism and distrust. Baggage can cloud your judgment. Survival may depend on how willing one is to give up preconceived notions and embrace new ones.

Maslow’s hierarchy of needs is a pyramid of needs where one can only advance to the next higher level by satisfying all requirements of the lower levels. The first level is satisfying basic needs such as food, water, and shelter. The second level is safety and security. Third is the need to love and be loved. Fourth is self-esteem, and fifth is selflessness. We cannot rise to the next level until the level we are own has been fulfilled. Once we have reached the higher levels, we can easily return to that level if our needs in one of the lower levels have been disrupted.

In sit x we will all find ourselves on the bottom rung. Our priorities will be food, water, and shelter. Those of us who have planned ahead should have no problem meeting these needs. Those who have not prepared may come after those of us who have. We will have to protect ourselves and our loved ones from those who may do anything to take what we have in order to meet their basic needs. This puts us on the next level of safety and security. Again, proper planning may be our best chance to fulfill this need.

We all saw how quickly the social structure of New Orleans deteriorated in the aftermath of Katrina. Part of the problem was due to the large number of people who lived at levels one and two. They spent their lives living day-to-day trying to fulfill their basic and safety needs.

This is a selfish “all about me” way of living. Many people get “stuck” at the second level and although they appear to have reached other levels, they are still trying to fulfill the second level of safety and security. Any relationships with these types of people are often “hell on earth.” It is difficult for one to love or feel love, have self esteem, or exhibit selflessness if they do not feel safe and secure. You cannot fix this state in another person. You cannot make them feel safe and secure no matter what you do. It often takes a major life-changing event to give that person an internal feeling of safety and security.

For me, it was the realization that I could never feel safe and secure until I dealt with my own issue of child sexual abuse. That approach didn’t occur until I was nearly forty. I can look back at my life and see that nearly every decision I made back then was selfish, based in trying to get that internal security. I drank too much, smoked too much, and was very promiscuous. I was drawn to men who were controlling and abusive because I couldn’t control my own life. When the relationships reached the point where my fear of the other person became greater than my need for this false security, I simply ran away.

The problem in society is that there are so many people still stuck in level one or two. Some don’t know how to rise to the next level while other don’t have any desire to rise. They have become comfortable in their misery. It appears safer to them than the unknown. That is why so many women (and some men) stay in abusive relationships. This is why social structures collapse when faced with disasters. The sad fact is that in sit x, these are the people who will be our greatest enemies. At best, they will be useless to us as they will never feel safe and may compromise our own safety. At worst, they will be aggressively trying to take our property or our lives. If you are in a relationship with any of these people, I suggest you get out now. They may mean the difference between your survival and your death.

Good judgment comes with experience, experience comes from poor judgment.

Tremendous post DE.

Is it safe to say now we have covered all (well most of it) on the topic of specifically womans survival?

Because there`s only so much we can say regarding just women,unless we talk in general of our survival.

So`s not to bring attention from the mods and continue with the topic survival? ( go mods!,I`ve been good :lol

That basic pyramid structure,I`ve never heard that before,but thats spot on.

Not sure about the American wilderness,but in Australia "water" is not easy to come by especially during summer,The top of Australia only experiences 2 seasons the wet and the dry the humidity up there can be very draining,but is teaming with wild life one of them is the croc though.

Traveling south from there (the mid west)its not uncommon to not get rain other than waiting for a cyclone to brush on through,wild life is scarce though fishing is some of the best in the world,the heat is dry by extreme during summer and can get quite cold during the night in winter.

When driving through the mid west nearly everybody waves at each other as they pass,well just a raised finger from the steering wheel.Because of the remoteness of the place.

So to us #1 is a water supply and shelter from the heat,I`m looking at getting a desalinater or water filter soon for this purpose.Being on the coast our main food will be fish,the tides up there are quite big about 10 meters sometimes and the tide can be used for easy fishing.when the tide goes out simply walk out and stake a net,wait for the tide to come in and out again and provided a Noah (shark) hasn`t demolished the net we`ll have plenty of fish.

Our shelter would have to be a tent for a while,though I am also looking at a medium sized 4x4 bus and then those sheets you can get to camouflage it,I`m also looking at solar panels as a power source,hopefully I can find a good eclectic stove that would run from it and also a fridge,so`s to cut out the smoke for security reasons.

These things obviously will only be temporary as nothing lasts forever,but it will give us time to practice and prepare for ultimate survival.

There are many locations in Australia just unsure yet as to where,we plan to be on the road if I catch a sniff of it being impending,so if I disappear I`m either dead or I`ve nicked off,it maybe premature and you can all laugh at me.

I hope it doesn`t happen in the next year or so whilst we get ready for it.

Diseria

Frankly, this is a flip-flop from the 'traditional' patriarchal way of viewing women and their (general) value...

I stated in several posts on ATS and also on BTS that I did not think this was a patriarchal society at all. I thought it was a matriarchial society masquerading as a patriarchial society. Occult..hidden ...concealed..esoteric. It gets this way by non virtue of the male dumbness about almost everything including their maleness.

No, I do not understand.
Maybe I'm completely missing what you're saying, so please take my words with a grain of sugar.
If you're with a woman who has kids (not your kids), then in her mind, her kids _should_ take first place. I might be alone on this, but whenever I have kids -- they come first. (And, if you accept them as your children, the same mindset should follow.)
Now, if you're talking about a woman _using_ you for a paycheck (financial security), taking the money without emotional compensation, that's a different kettle of fish. Indeed, she would properly be classified as a 'money whore', or, for short, a whore -- which is dehumanizing in its own right. (So, in the end, both of you would be dehumanizing each other, and yourselves for allowing it to happen.)

I think you are missing a very important point here..about the very point I am making about female socialization...and its relationship to male disposability and expendability ..good times or bad...also called survival.

Dont worry Diseria...most men I know cannot think this through either...How about those LA Lakers???

Someone earlier in this thread posted that women are always in the survival mode. I agree with this. I also think that most men are so dumbed down by thier oil shortage mentality such that they dont often recognize this for what it means in terms of conduct..socialization and expectations...ie ..belief systems.

I have told this story before but will retell it again for the purposes of illustrating the point you dont seem to understand or grasp in lieu of female socialization skills/beliefs.

My friend for many years now..lives across the river. He has been married several times and once in awhile we get together and compare notes on wildlife. He told me ..." You know I finally figured out what it is about these women who come over here to my house. THey are looking at what they can get for themselves and thier kids...not what they really need to bring me."
I agreed with him on this and told him that it is pretty much what I have learned. They actually think that sleeping with him is the ability to tap into a gold vein for themselves and their kids. They are giving up so much of value for him. Their limited socialization skills do not allow them to see what is missing from his life and what is needed to fill it.....as a career ..not an option. It is like...He's getting my body once in awhile..what more could a man want?? It is more than equal. Much much more than equal. You see Diseria..when he or I choose to sleep with a woman ..we are using them because we dont give equal value when we sleep with them. It is not a equal trade..therefore we are using them.
When the light bulb went off in my head and I figured this out...and a woman told me I used her..I almost made the mistake of busting out laughing!! Once you know the pattern it becomes obvious.
This is why it has to be a patriarchial society....It has to be patriarchal .....your using me!!!!
What a dumb bunch of men. Even dumber than many of these women. How about in Situation X?????

Do you think this would be any different in Situation X?? I dont. Only more desperate.

Understand now about this relationship in thinking and socialization skills to male disposability and expendability.?? This line of thinking is almost universal in America. Not all women but the great great many.

By the way..to a thinking man..it does not matter if they are his kids or her kids. He is still not looking for a career in coming in second or even last place while being expected ..even taken for granted that he give first fruits.

I call this "The appearance of commitment so that you never really have to be committed."

But remember Diseria...only men can be commitment phobes...right??
Do I need to take a lie detector test on this one??

I dont have a problem with a woman putting her kids first. Both I and my friend have a problem with a women constantly putting us last as a career while taking all the support/options they can get. Understand. I told my friend that my home is not a pit stop on the way for a woman and kids to get back out on the race track with me as the pit crew. This is the universal part. The pit stopping. Sorry ..Diseria...sex and lap dancing is not worth all this to me. Nor my friend. It is not a equal trade..value for value substance for substance. Not happening.
Understand now ..in the day and time of "Femminism" and all the wonderful things women are doing better than men and more of it to boot. Multitasking too. How about in Situation X???

This is what I hear the men complaining about but unable, because of one dimensional thinking, to break out of the mess they to which they have contributed. What these men detect about the social system in play is that thier emotions dont count. Other settings on the dial do count..just not theirs. They are expendable and disposable.

How is Femminism going to solve this type of dilemma except by continued dumbing down of the male?? I dont think Femminism is helping the females here either....best to keep the males dumb and on a continued oil shortage mentality. This is exactly what is happening..politically,socially, and economically. What a dumb bunch of males out here.

Intresting thing about my friend. He doesnt care for sports either ..nor the gods of sports. I laughed when he told me this years ago. We're two square pegs in a round hole. Neither of us will be in front of the tube at kickoff time this weekend.

Oh..I do like to give my woman a foot rub when we have time to get together. I like to fix a meal here at my home and then later sit her down in my Lazy Boy to rub her feet while putting in a movie. She usually doesnt last through the movie but falls asleep. I dont mind as she is an apartment manager and is on her feet alot. They take a beating so I dont mind rubbing them for her. I like to watch her relax to a good foot rub. Piece and quiet can be a prescious commodity in todays fast food lane lifestyle.

Anyway ..hope this helps explain some of my thinking..Situation X or not.

Thanks,
Orangetom

I tell ya', this thread has proved to be a very interesting read.

Kudos to everyone whose contributions have generated a very lively, informative (if a little rambling) experience.



My experiences differ a bit from OT's, and I'd like to contribute what little I can - but unfortunately I have to go to work..on a Saturday. Is there no justice?

:shk: