2008 Conservative Presidential Candidates

reply to post by xpert11

Its worth noting there is no lower house in the New Zealand parliament. How is class of senator decided? Forgive me but I still don't quiet grasp how two senators per state can belong to different classes. So Don if you got your constitutional convention that you want ( with me serving tea and coffee and taking minutes ) how would you re design the US political system?

Love it! Nebraska alone of the 50 states, has a unicameral state legislature. In fact, when Nebraska adopted that format, a suit was brought to block as contrary to the US Con. Article 4, Section 4. "The United States shall guarantee to every state in this union a republican form of government . . “ But the Supreme Court ruled unicameral, bicameral, it was still a republic if the electorate chose the legislators.

The classification of US senators occurred only ONE time, in the first Congress elected in 1789. The object was to elect one-third of the senate every 2 years. So, all the senators were divided into 3 groups or classes. Senators held a drawing or lottery which by chance, alloted them to a class. Group 1, or class 1, served 2 years. Group 2 or class 2 served 4 years and group 3 or class 3, served the full six years. As each class’s terms expired, the NEXT election for senators was for 6 years which remains the case today.

For convenience and to allot new senators as states are admitted, the FirstGov.org website will show you which “class” each senator is put into. The use of “classes” is an anachronism but for any new states which would have 1 senator in one class, and another senator in another class so that in NO state are both senators elected in the same 2 year Congressional electoral cycle. So now we have 33, 33 and 34 senators. END.

[edit on 1/11/2008 by donwhite]

Hmm interesting . Don I look forward to your thoughts on re designing the US political system .

What did you make of Ron Paul taking a donation from neo Nazis ?

I lost all respect for Ron when he didn't refund the money and speak out against the Neo Nazis . Ron had as much right to refund the money and speak out against the Neo Nazis as they had to donate the money. Ron's supporters would defend him blindly no matter what in the name of his Libertarian stance and claim that what ever has happened is an attempted to smear him.

Of course if something like that happened to another candidate Paul supporters would cry blue murder.

Update

McCain has the support of 34 percent of registered Republicans in a CNN/Opinion Research Corp. survey out Friday. That's a 21-point jump from the last CNN/Opinion Research poll, taken in December, well before the Iowa caucuses and New Hampshire primary earlier this month.

Former Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee, who won the Iowa Republican caucuses, is in second place in the new survey, with 21 percent of those registered Republicans polled supporting him for the GOP nomination

source

Well it looks like McCain has gained something from pouring resources into what is or are minor battles.

The question is how long can McCain sustain his lead in the polls ?
I would say McCain has reasonable chance of doing well in the polls until he either loses the next minor battle or Rudy brings out the big guns against McCain with the aim of doing well on Super Tuesday.

reply to post by xpert11

Hmm interesting . Don I look forward to your thoughts on re designing the US political system . What did you make of Ron Paul taking a donation from neo Nazis? I lost all respect for Ron when he didn't refund the money and speak out against the Neo Nazis . Ron had as much right to refund the money and speak out against the Neo Nazis as they had to donate the money. Ron's supporters would defend him blindly no matter what in the name of his Libertarian stance and claim that what ever has happened is an attempted to smear him. Of course if something like that happened to another candidate Paul supporters would cry blue murder.

1) I’ll furnish more on this topic later. Re-organizing the US government.

2) Ron Paul, like all candidates, from time to time receive money from less than honorable sources. As long as we insist on funding elections with private money - selling our birthright - these incidents will occur. I am unaware of anything Ron Paul has said or done that would indicate he shared the twisted views of the Neo-Nazis. Now, neo-cons is a different matter.

The neo-Nazis, or Aryan Nation types, were once led by George Lincoln Rockwell, but he was assassinated by a fellow true-believer. Then the fellow from Louisiana took over. This really is a fringe group. Yes, that is wnat they said about Hitler in 1922, so we need to see what they offer that appeals to so many young “skin-heads” and maybe counter it rather than to ban it. There is no excuse - or rationale - for anti-semitism or anti-black movements in the US today.

[edit on 1/12/2008 by donwhite]

reply to post by xpert11

McCain has the support of 34 percent of registered Republicans in a CNN/Opinion Research Corp. survey out Friday. That's a 21-point jump from the last CNN/Opinion Research poll, taken in December, before the Iowa caucuses and New Hampshire primary earlier this month. Former Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee, who won the Iowa Republican caucuses, is in second place in the new survey, with 21 percent of those registered Republicans polled supporting him for the GOP nomination

Well it looks like McCain has gained something from pouring resources into what is or are minor battles. The question is how long can McCain sustain his lead in the polls ? I would say McCain has reasonable chance of doing well in the polls until he either loses the next minor battle or Rudy brings out the big guns against McCain with the aim of doing well on Super Tuesday.

We are finishes for the most part with the smaller states where the candidates could practice “retail” politics. As February 5 and 24 states voting approaches, we are now shifting into “wholesale” politics. From now on it will be tv ads including that much hated Section 527 that we are unable to rid ourselves of. As long as “negative” ads work, there will be a constituency for 527s. This is so because of the Supreme Court and the First Amendment. If you want flag-burning to be protected “speech” then you have to accept 527s. I dispute that proposition. Reagan and Bush judicial appointees do not.


PS. I cannot help but recommend the new book from Penguin Books, “American Theocracy: The Peril and Politics of Radical Religion, Oil and Borrowed Money in the Twenty-first Century” by Kevin Philips who wrote his first book on the emerging Republican majority in 1966. A bit longish bur it held my interest through to the last page. He defines the groups that make up today’s Republican Party.

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I devoted the majority of first podcast to an overview of this thread. Feel free to post your thoughts on this thread or the podcast thread.

Of course you can reply via podcast as well.

[ / shameless advertising ]

[edit on 13-1-2008 by xpert11]

reply to post by xpert11

I devoted the majority of first podcast to an overview of this thread. Feel free to post your thoughts on this thread or the podcast thread.

Great podcast Mr X11! Thanks for taking the trouble.

Back when djohnsto77 opened this thread, he recited the full list of real or probable Republican candidates for the highest office in the land. Here’s his list:

Rudy Giuliani - NY
John McCain - AZ
Mitt Romney - MA
Condi Rice - CA (she says no, but we're still hoping?)
Newt Gingrich - GA (another ?)
Tom Tancredo - CO
Ron Paul - TX
Mike Huckabee - AR
Sam Brownback - KS
Fred Thompson - TN
Duncan Hunter - CA

I’m not sure if Duncan Hunter is still technically “alive” or not, but I think he must join Sam Brownbeck, Tom Tancredo, Newt Gingrich (and Condo Rice) as drop-outs. Well, Condo never dropped-in. To me Ron Paul more nearly resembles the (feral) cat. He seems to have 9 lives and I say he has used 7 of them. Or, how many more 24 hour money-thons can he pull off? I still contend that he got most of his money from rich medical doctors in Texas. I base that on the number of donors reported divided into the amount raised. Since those internet-thons were probably registered as 527s, we may never know who is funding Ron Paul. And it appears no one in the MSM has the slightest interest in learning. See Foot Note.

Rudy Giuliani has taken the high risk strategy of avoiding the early small delegate but large risk states and has made Florida his first effort. I see his same worn out ad running down here endlessly. It offers that “Americans will fight back if attacked” and by juxtaposing that he, the Doomsday Mayor of NYC, is just the man to lead the fight! So much went wrong in the immediate aftermath of the NYC Nine Eleven Event tragedy that I predict he will be sorry to be associated with it before November 4, 2008, should he get the GOP nod.

John McCain is truly the GOP’s version of the Comeback Kid. But let’s be honest, John is TOO old, his message has been repudiated - see Bush43 ratings - and he will never be able to compete in the Feb. 5 slugfest. Not enough money. Scratch McCain as a serious contender for the GOP’s ordination in September.

Mitt Romney. He’s facing his personal apocalypse in Michigan next Tuesday. Self imposed. Twice already an also-ran, he must now show that the $50 million he has spent was a wise investment. Rich people do not throw away money. I don’t know how Michigan will go. Aside: I wonder how many who don’t like Romney’s religion saw yesterday's History Channel program in which the late 19th century Utah Mormons were very negatively portrayed? Huckabee may not relent on attacking his religion if he - Romney - gets the gold in Michigan.

Mike Huckabee. He is riding a wave today. He may get a boost in SC. That remains to be seen. I am opposed to Huckabee because he like Bush43 is advertising his religion - wearing it on his sleeve - and surely we can see that leads to more division not less. Public religiosity is an unwelcome throwback to a long and dark history of Western Civilization and the role played by the organized Christian Religions. And us today are forgetting or are not knowing how hard our ancestors struggled for over 400 years to break free from its - Christian religion - binding chains. To all the people who want to “believe” in miracles I say, show me one.

Fred Thompson. Actor turned politico. Fred impresses me mainly as just being LAZY. Can a lazy man win a hard fought race? No, to answer my own question. Forget him. He may think of himself as a second Gipper, but I tell you he is NO quipper.

Talk about POOR choices, the GOP goes from bad to worse! The Dems are doubly “blessed” when compared to the shallow GOP field. Wow!

Foot Note: I have suggested the rich medical doctors are leveraging their donations to Ron Paul as a warning to the GOP to more towards positions vis a vis the up-coming (2009) health care issue battle, that they perceive best serves their interests. Ie, no regulations on fees. Say a blank check.

[edit on 1/13/2008 by donwhite]

Well I have found nothing to indicate that Duncan has formally dropped out of the race. Most likely he is after a cabinet position in any future Republican admin.

Some key points.

source

He served in South Vietnam from 1970 to 1971 during the Vietnam War[6] in the Army Rangers' 75th Ranger Regiment, attached to the 173rd Airborne Brigade.[7] He participated in 24 helicopter assaults[5] as well as in small-number, night-time reconnaissance patrols.[8] He held the rank of First Lieutenant,[6] and was awarded the Bronze Star Medal, [5] Air Medal,[6] and service ribbons such as the Vietnam Service Medal.[6] He has said, "I didn't do anything special in the U.S. Army, but I served with very special soldiers I will never forget."[6]

Given the current political climate I think that Duncan service in Vietnam is worth noting.

Hunter has done well in some straw polls. Hunter won polls in Maricopa County, Arizona (in January 2007) and Anderson County, South Carolina. He has also finished second place in straw polls in Greenwood and Pickens Counties. He finished third place in a Spartanburg poll and also finished a close third, only two percentage points behind John McCain, in a Nevada straw poll in October 2007. However, in Iowa, where he has done very little campaigning, Hunter finished without a single vote in a "just for fun" Crawford County poll and finished in 9th place out of 11 (with 172 votes) in the Ames Straw Poll,

Duncan is just another one of the lesser known candidates or a member of the chasing pack that has no chance at winning his party nomination . Ron Paul fans rant on and on about how there candidate is ignored or not given a fair go by the media. Well the problem or perception goes beyond Paul and his legion of worshippers.

Ron Paul worshippers have to much of "the world is against us " mentality to clue into this fact.

reply to post by xpert11

Hmm interesting . Don I look forward to your thoughts on re designing the US political system.

Mr Xpert 11, I want to abolish the Senate but I cannot. The Con provides that no state’s number of senators can be reduced without its consent. While California and New York would agree, it is for sure Montana or Wyoming would not. I choose this means to accomplish my end. COMBINE the House and Senate.

Proposed amendment: 1) On the 3rd day of January in the year following the adoption of this amendment, the House or Representatives and Senate shall meet and sit as one body; together they shall choose their officers and adopt rules every four years; together they shall consider, debate and vote on every issue, law, resolution, treaty and appointment of officers and judges as one body, and in all cases, a majority of the total number of members shall be required for approval or passage; one half of the whole number of members present shall constitute a quorum for the conduct of business but one-fifth of the combined body shall have power to compel the attendance of the other members. The terms of members chosen from House districts shall henceforth be for 4 years beginning with the first election after the adoption hereof, but terms for members elected from Senatorial constituencies shall be for 6 years with one-third elected every two yeas as is now the law. In all respects Members serving 4 years and members serving 6 years shall be equal in all respects, and have no variance except for the length of their terms of service.

2) In the case of the election of all officers provided for under this Constitution, the whole cost thereof shall be borne out of the Treasury of the United States; congress shall make such laws as necessary and proper to provide for fair and equitable right of dissemination of and the full participation in the electoral process by all persons eligible for the office they seek.

3) Congress shall provide that the full and complete electoral process shall be completed in one year, the whole process to begin on the last Monday in January and to end with the general election on the first Saturday and Sunday in November; in a case where a candidate fails to achieve an absolute majority of the votes cast, a second election between the two highest candidates shall be held on the last Saturday and Sunday in November; and the winning candidates shall take office on the third Friday in December.

4) It shall be unlawful for any person to engage in the political process who is not subject to the general laws forbidding private funds to be expended by or on behalf of or in opposition to any registered candidate for office under this Constitution. Congress shall by law provide for penalties which shall include but are not limited to banning from participation in future electoral processes up to 10 years, in addition to appropriate fines and costs assessed and up to 5 years in prison.

5) The Electoral College for the selection of the President and Vice President is hereby abolished; the two slated persons receiving the majority of the whole number of votes cast country-wide shall be elected. If no team of candidates receives a majority, then a second election shall be held in 14 days between the top two slates of candidates, the winner taking office on the third Friday in December.

6) Congress shall have power to alter and or modify the electoral process for its membership to the MMP (Mixed Member Proportional) method of electors as are now employed in Germany and New Zealand, but our version shall preserve the minimum of 3 members of Congress from each state, all others members to be based on population only in accordance with the last census.

[edit on 1/14/2008 by donwhite]

Don I like all your ideas expect for having elections or rather political party's entirely funded by the tax payer . Under the circumstances I can certainly understand why you support such a notion. I support the public being able donate money to political party's providing that there is transparency or regulated . For example if a donation over say ten grand is made the name of the person , company or organisation is publicly available .

Don under your reforms does the president have to a coalition of majority od senators to govern ?

The Act makes it illegal for anyone to spend more than NZ$12,000 criticising or supporting a political party or taking a position on any political matter, or more than NZ$1,000 criticising or supporting an individual member of parliament, without first registering with a state agency, the Electoral Commission.

source

Locally we have had the debate over how the public donations to political party's should be regulated. I think that the ID donors of money over say ten grand should be publicly available but I don't the measures in the bill .

reply to post by xpert11

Don I like all your ideas expect for having elections or rather political party's entirely funded by the tax payer. Under the circumstances I can certainly understand why you support such a notion. I support the public being able donate money to political party's providing that there is transparency or regulated.

Digression.
Q. How did the American Revolution (1775 -1783) differ from the French Revolution (1789 -1799)?

A. The American revolutionaries managed to STOP the revolt at a point in political history most amenable to their own self interests.

The equally thoughtful and conservative early leaders of the French Revolution - including Englishman Thomas Paine - lost control in 1792-3 with the execution of King Louis XVI and his wife. The Paris Mob reigned. The Revolution roiled on until 1799 when Napoleon designated himself First Consul. He later crowned himself as emperor in 1804.

The secret of success of the 1787 Constitution was this: it was democratic enough the common folk would accept it but it incorporated sufficient safeguards to preserve the modus operandi of the R&Fs - rich and famous. James Monroe, the sixth president, 1816 - 1824, was the last of the American FFs to be elected president. That 36 years was long enough to assure the 1787 document would be throughly ingrained into American culture. 99% of all you see, hear or read continues to propagandize the sanctification of the US Con. It is untouchable. Beyond reproach. Infallible. I feel like Jeremiah, a prophet crying in the wilderness!

The 1787 central government had only 3 sources of revenue. Import duties, excise taxes and profits from the sale or rental of land. A government can not do much if it has no money! It was 1913's passage of the 16th Amendment before the Federal government was fully funded.

It is obvious to me this document - the much beloved 1787 Constitution - has come to the end of its utility. Yes, it was OK for the slower late 18th century. The president’s inauguration was set for March 4 in the year following the November election due to doubtful roads. This long hiatus was not up-dated until the 1936 election when the inauguration date was moved up to January 20. Still TOO much delay!

In today’s fast moving world the time between election day (November 4) to January 20 is 77 days! AND worse, if you agree Bush43 policies were rebuked in the November 6, 2006 election - a vote of NO confidence - then how long is it before HE will be replaced as Commander-in-Chief? 55 days in ‘06. All of ‘07, all of ‘08 and 20 days into ‘09. 806 days. Sweet Jesus, make the world stand still if you please, while we get our act together!

And one more thing. Everyone here now admits the unicameral Articles of Confederation (1775) legislature could be more responsive than the altered bicameral legislature imposed in 1787. It is almost universally accepted the bicameral legislature was offered as one more compromise to get the approval of the Southern slave holding states. While I accept the necessity of that compromise in 1787, the 13th amendment in 1865 canceled any perceived rationale - justification - for continuing a system of governance that will not serve us well in the 21st century.

I have said a lot to say this: since the beginning, America's monied interests have always controlled - ruled?. Today this is aided and abetted by being the only CLASS with enough surplus money to fund a national presidential campaign. We are talking $500 million for each of the 2 major parties to get us to November 4, 2008! Sure, if 100 million citizens would forward $5 to their favorite party, democracy would reign! (I belong to the $6 a month club sponsored by the DNC). But that kind of widespread public support is even less likely than a re-run of Noah’s Great Flood. Let’s just say it is disingenuous. Which is NOT a good word.

[edit on 1/15/2008 by donwhite]

Don has does the above post about the French revolution fit in with your political reforms ?

Some political analysts said Michigan was a must-win for Romney, who finished second in Iowa and New Hampshire.

Romney, who won the overshadowed Wyoming caucuses, is a Michigan native and his father was governor of the state in the 1960s.

Forty-one percent of people who voted in the GOP primary said Romney's Michigan ties were important to them, according to exit polls.

Source

Well it like musical chairs when it comes to which of the Republican candidates are going to win the minor battles. After the disaster that is Bush I find it astounding that people are still willing to vote for a candidate based on his/her family name.

Voters have always has short memories but now it looks like they are getting stupider rather then smarter.

reply to post by xpert11


Have you noticed the new ad on ATS? “Stop Hillary Care.” I never click on those ads as I don’t want them to have my email address. Just imagine this, health care in America is $2.2 T and rising.

A new claim by some anti immigrant person says there are 20 million undocumented persons in the US, not 12 million. Another one of those unprovable negatives. But if you divide 320,000,000 into $2.2T you get $6,875 per person, per year. Health care in America. MORE than the total GDP per capita of Peru, (93), Lebanon (96), Albania (97), Armenia (98), Jordan (101), Guatemala (102), Philippines (1-3), El Salvador (105), Paraguay (107), Morocco (111), Egypt (115), Syria (116), Cuba (117), and ending with Somalia (193) and Malawi (194). Wow!

And for all that money we do not get the best outcomes in medicine either. A dozen countries do better in infant mortality and longevity than we do. Sounds like someone is getting screwed?

Former Sen. Fred Thompson on Tuesday ended his run for the presidency, coming off the heels of a disappointing third-place finish in South Carolina's GOP primary and heading into the showdown state of Florida next week.

Former Sen. Fred Thompson of Tennessee has dropped out of the race for the GOP presidential nomination.

"Today I have withdrawn my candidacy for president of the United States," Thompson said in a statement.

"I hope that my country and my party have benefited from our having made this effort. Jeri and I will always be grateful for the encouragement and friendship of so many wonderful people."

source

Well I would have thought that Fred would have thrown his lot in with Super Tuesday mirroring Rudy strategy but clearly that isnt the case . Never ventured nothing gained I guess.

A Counter Point

Don check out this story . I think after that the regional district health board came under fire and its chief was sacked or that might have been to do with a differnt scandal.

reply to post by xpert11


Here’s how I would have written the FINALE of Fred
“Former Law and Order pontificating DA and erstwhile Sen. Fred Thompson ended his run for the presidency on Tuesday coming off the heels of a disappointing third-place finish in South Carolina's GOP primary. He had not worked Florida and heading into the showdown next week saw him ending only as "an also ran." Fred Thompson of Tennessee has dropped out of the race for the GOP presidential nomination.

Fred explained, "It was just too much hard work for me. I thought I could ride on Reagan’s coattails and maybe get the No. 2 slot as a consolation prize? That seemed a great way to end a not too successful career - if you leave out my womanizing. As one former VP (John Nance Garner) said, “the job ain’t worth a bucket of warm spit.” That’s my kind of job!

Thank You, Fred Thompson. You put it so succinctly!

I have to agree that Fred was all sizzle and no steak. I still say that he got in tothe race because other people told him that he should. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that his agent told him, "do this and even if you lose it will enhance your career."

Well it is make or break time for Rudy or very close to it . Either Rudy gamble will pay off handsomely or fail miserable . Rudy is trailing in the polls but in truth the poll that matters is the one on election or primary day.

Is Primary day the correct term ?

Anyway lets hear it does Rudy candidacy rely on doing well or winning in Florida ?

If Rudy does poorly in Florida can he still do well on Super Tuesday and clinch his party nomination ?

As for Fred I hope that to many Republicans didn't pin there hopes on the guy because if they did they would or will be very disappointed.

reply to post by xpert11

Well it is make or break time for Rudy or very close to it. Either Rudy gamble will pay off handsomely or fail miserable. Rudy is trailing in the polls but in truth the poll that matters is the one on election or primary day. Is Primary day the correct term?

We call it by both names. It is the primary election day. Polls close in Florida at 7 PM EST. We should have solid returns by 8 PM. The poll failure in NH is not at all likely to be repeated here. The situation was very much different there than it is here. The poll takers stopped Saturday and Hillary had her “human moment” on Sunday. Every woman in America knows what any successful woman faces. Just as any black knows what Obama faces every day. As of yesterday the polls said McCain and Romney were tied at 31% each and Giuliani and Huckabee were close at 17% each.

Rudy made a bad strategic choice and he now looks like a “stranger” to the voters. That is the real value of the early states. Exposure. Hopefully favorable. Iowa at 4 million people, NH at 1.5 million, MI at 9 million and SC at 4 million barely equal the 16 million people in Florida.

Florida has been cut short on delegates to both conventions, the GOP cut in half, the Dems by 100%. This was a last minute cheap shot by ex-Governor Jeb Bush as a parting gesture meant mainly to muck up the Dems.

Anyway lets hear it does Rudy candidacy rely on doing well or winning in Florida? If Rudy does poorly in Florida can he still do well on Super Tuesday and clinch his party nomination?

1) Technically NO, as to Rudy’s future candidacy. YES in political reality of the campaign. Losers are not going to raise money nor will they arouse much voter enthusiasm.

2) Yes on Super Tuesday Feb. 5. And YES on still able to gain his party’s nomination, but the odds are oh so L O N G and he made that happen. Not good for a man wanting to be a national leader and succeed the DECIDER!

[edit on 1/29/2008 by donwhite]

Looks like we're gonna have to start talking about a McCain-Romney ticket. I'll be surprised if Huckabee can pull ahead through February 5th. He lacks the money and the organization.

So, how does the combination of McCain and Romney beat the double-threat of Clinton and Obama?

Originally posted by Justin Oldham
So, how does the combination of McCain and Romney beat the double-threat of Clinton and Obama?

It doesn't Romney middle name is flip flop. McCain belongs to the moderate arm of the Republican party . Moderate Republicans are hated almost as much as the dems by the right wing element of there own party.

I respect the fact that McCain is able to reach across party lines but again the right wing element of the Republican party strikes again with the unwritten law that comprises and by partisanship is illegal . Admittedly when McCain has crossed party lines he has been misguided but that doesn't change the fact he will buried in the hole that his party has dug for him.

Oh yeah and there is the fact that McCain is connected to Iraq and the Bush admin.

Any party that opposes a balanced budget for purely partisan reasons and spin BS tales about being strong on national security deserves any punishment that comes it way . All of this is coming from someone who intends to vote along Conservative lines at the NZ election.

Huckabee is a religious fruit loop I wont be sorry to see him disappear from the Race. I do admit to being disappointed about Rudy thou.

Unfortunately Hillary election will only make the partisan divided in the US . I cant escape the feeling that the US is reaching a tipping point in terms of the partisan divided and its political system . There must be other like minded individuals in the US who have similar ideas to those of Dons .

It wont happen but for the sake of discussion I think that a Hillary - McCain ticket would be interesting ............

[edit on 30-1-2008 by xpert11]