Islamofascism: How dare you say that

I've got a question for you and most Americans..

You say we won't condemn Islamic radicals, but majority of Americans have no problems in supporting and funding Irish republicans for the last 30 years? remember those public fundraising for the IRA and the numerous Irish-American politicans who openly supported the republican movement in Northern Ireland?

We are standing side by side with you in the War on Terrorism, but many Americans still fund and support the Real IRA and the republican movement.

will you condem that?

Originally posted by neformore
Just to clarify, you are not French or English are you?

I'm an American.

Am I supposed to live in perpetual fear of a takeover by those people as well?

And where exactly did I say that you should? No where. You didn't read my posts did you? Nope.

Demographics of countries shift continually. Countries come and go. Peoples come and go. Cultures come and go. England and France are no different. They come and they go. Same with America.

Am I supposed to live in perpetual fear ...

No. But you might want to keep an eye on your tunnel over there. Common sense.

Oh, and British Mullah Mr. Anjum Chaudri says that all non-muslims are legitimate targets for terrorists. Just FYI.

Some radical muslims aren't as tolerant of others, as you seem to claim that you are.

what gives you any kind of right to comment on - or makes you any kind of expert - on what goes on in my country?

Get a grip. This is a discussion board. I have FULL RIGHT to discuss what happens in England, France, America, Iraq, ... ANYWHERE that I darn well please. Just as others have a right to discuss what happens in the USA. Deal with it.

Oh ... And where did I claim to be an expert? No where. However, it doesn't take an expert to pull up demographic information on birth rates and immigration rates to see that what was stated about France becoming muslim majority in a generation is correct.

And when it comes to not wanting to integrate .. that's also a fact. There are PLENTY of threads discussing the non-integration of muslims in France. I also said that it was UNDERSTANDABLE. People with strong religious values do not like to integrate into secular societies.

Some of YOUR politicians dared to enter 'muslim territory' in England recently and were told they weren't welcome by the religious leader. Or have you convenietly forgotten that??

aren't interested in the views of the people that actually live in the countries to which you refer?

And where did I say that? No where.

You SERIOUSLY need to go get some fresh air and actually read what is posted without that chip on your shoulder. Seriously.



[edit on 12/26/2006 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by infinite
You say we won't condemn Islamic radicals,

Me? I didn't say that. Who said that?

many Americans still fund and support the Real IRA and the republican movement. will you condem that?

Really? I thought the IRA was basically dead. It's been quiet lately. SURE. I'd condemn that. BTW - How many are 'many'? And who are these people? Just curious. I thought the IRA was defunct.

I say Islamofascist all the time and no one can tell me to stop saying it...
You know why they hate that term? Because it slaps them with the truth each time...and it is truth that goes against their agenda...something they cannot face. Islamofascism is a reality and the term itself is recognized by official sources on an international level, period.

Flyers,

Please, stop being so damn patronising. It does you no good.

You quote things at people from England as if you know better than they do about the issues at hand - you even went and did it in your rather insulting reply.

In short - your attitude sucks.

Hey - you may even have the odd valid point but the person with the chip on their shoulder in this conversation is the one using terms like "get a grip junior". I asked a valid question out of curiosity and based on the topic at hand
.
Find someone else to talk down to.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by infinite
You say we won't condemn Islamic radicals,

Me? I didn't say that. Who said that?

many Americans still fund and support the Real IRA and the republican movement. will you condem that?

Really? I thought the IRA was basically dead. It's been quiet lately. SURE. I'd condemn that. BTW - How many are 'many'? And who are these people? Just curious. I thought the IRA was defunct.

Originally posted by neformore
stop being so damn patronising.... your attitude sucks... Find someone else to talk down to.

My attitude is fine. YOU are the one with a chip on your shoulder. YOU interjected a whole lot into my posts that weren't there. I was very polite. If I'm talking down to you now it's because you have shown yourself to deserve it. YOU can't deal with someone who factually and politely disagrees with your opinion. Again ... get a grip .. and apologize.

Originally posted by laiguana
You know why they hate that term? Because it slaps them with the truth each time...and it is truth that goes against their agenda...something they cannot face. Islamofascism is a reality and the term itself is recognized by official sources on an international level, period.

it slaps me with a lie and covert bigotry...
not truth

it reaks of anti-islamic propaganda
and it implies a unified world islamic movement for power
there is 0 evidence to support that these various small fundamentalist groups have any sort of unity

hell, in iraq and now with the recent civil war that's breaking out in palestine, islamic extremists are even killing EACH OTHER

there is no unity, hence no fascism

Unfortunately, they don't take headcounts of how many people stay at home instead of protesting in the streets, so I chose not to risk saying a billion, or hundreds of millions, although I strongly suspect that it is indeed HUNDREDS of millions who do not get out of hand.

You'd think that if the majority of 1.4 billion people were really acting as the media portrays, you wouldn't be able to see the forest through the trees as far as corpses were concerned, yet after the pope rocked the Islamic boat, they had time to report on one nun being killed... you'd think that a billion people raging in the streets would kill WAY too many people for one nun to make the news lead.

I know you're just messing, but just for the audience I'd like to say that it seems like a pretty safe inference I've made.

Originally posted by The Vagabond
I strongly suspect that it is indeed HUNDREDS of millions who do not get out of hand.

I fully agree with that statement. I saw the 'there are a billion' and 'millions behave' kind of thing and I just HAD to tease ya'. I knew what you ment and I'm sure the readers did too.

It is just as much a mistake to label all muslims fascist in order to ignore underlying issues as it is to turn a blind eye to the very real doctrine of cultural jihad being bandied about by many clerics.

I find the Iranian prime minister's veiled threat to European nations more disturbing than the shock jock's appeal. One's a world leader, the others a media monkey.

Ethiopia has begun to aerial bomb the muslim militants seeking to overthrow the coalition sympathetic government of that christian nation.

Not a word in the press about the fall of Mogadishu and the draconian rule many of those people now live under.

I think the point has been well-made, that it's difficult to cast blame on militant islam without being labeled an idiot or a racist. That is probably the result of a very poorly managed pre-emptive strike that seemed more intent on dismantling democracy at home and increasing profits for the oil cartel than on tearing the throat out of radicle militant muslim militias.

Originally posted by infinite
I've got a question for you and most Americans..

You say we won't condemn Islamic radicals, but majority of Americans have no problems in supporting and funding Irish republicans for the last 30 years? remember those public fundraising for the IRA and the numerous Irish-American politicans who openly supported the republican movement in Northern Ireland?

We are standing side by side with you in the War on Terrorism, but many Americans still fund and support the Real IRA and the republican movement.

will you condem that?

I thought the IRA was dead in the water and as far as supporting them I don't know anybody who does. I certainly don't a terrorist is a terrorist no matter country of orgin. The IRA definately qualifies as that. I know there were politicans who supported them but that was a shameless ploy to garner votes and pretty darn stupid at that.

Originally posted by neformore
Labels make great fear and control tools when used by propagandists to try and put forward their own ideologies. Paul Joseph Goebbels is as good example of someone who used them to good effect.

For all of that post,

You have voted neformore for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have one more vote left for this month.

Why , thank you for the vote. I'm honoured

I note that Flyers has carefully edited her post to make it seem like she has come from a more reasonable position. Nice trick.

Hey wow. I can edit posts too. The problem with Anjum Chaudri is that he is one person, on a TV show. He's as big an idiot as the guy shown on the initial CNN video quoted above. Hey, wow...theres idiots on both sides. Nothing new there.

The media feeds off idiots. They love them. They make the stories more interesting. After all if the media talked to the people quoted here

Muslims Condemn Terrorism

They wouldn't really have that much of a story. Oddly the page itself summarises things very nicely with the ration of photos it shows at the bottom, which kinda demonstrates that sections of the Western Media really do not want to portray the peaceful majority of the faith.

As for the tunnel - well there you go again with your unsolicited advice - keep an eye on that Mexican Border huh?

Islam on March South of the Border

Yes, I agree, you have a full right to discuss what happens in other countries, however I would suggest that you ask the locals about it first, instead of making sweeping statements about what is happening there, because quite simply, if you are sitting in America you really do not know the full picture, do you.

Or let me put it this way, do you trust the propaganda, or the people on the ground?

Oddly, I can't find a story about UK politicians being told they aren't welcome in certain places in this country, in fact I'm five pages into looking at the phrase "politicians asked to leave by Muslims" draws a blank on Google and "MP asked to leave by Muslims" also draws one. The BBC news archive, when presented with "muslim + politician + leave doesn't find anything either. I guess I must have missed it, unless of course you are talking about the two guys who heckled our Home Secretary in September. It happens alot in British Politics - try looking on the BBC for "fathers for justice". They've been hecking the politicians for years.

Oh yes...forgot....your post seems to imply I'm muslim

Some radical muslims aren't as tolerant of others, as you seem to claim that you are.

Actually, I'm a white atheist

[edit on 27/1206/06 by neformore]


[edit on 27/1206/06 by neformore]

[edit on 27/1206/06 by neformore]

Right on neformore

It makes me sick this new term "Islamofashist"

Might as well say "Americanofashist"

Somehow this whole thing makes me think of WW2 where they called the jews so many names for years hat people started to believe they where "untermenschen"
This same principle they are trying to use on Muslim people.

It is amazing to see how by these terms people justify murder of thousands of children and other inocent people.
Very medieval in my opinion.

The people who are using this new term "Islamofashists" are mostly the people that can have no respect for others in this world.

Just as the american goverment stated, murder, assasinations, lies and torture, it is all ok.
Listen.

No it is not ok to torture people in the name of so called freedom.
In this new Americano(fashist) law it is even allowed to torture childern, crush their balls etc.

It is amazing how you can justify these means by just finger pointing and false evidence.

Who is next ?

You?

Me?

Your family?

You reap as you sow.

Fascism (IPA: [ˈfæː.ʃɪ.zm̩]) is a political ideology and mass movement that seeks to place the nation, defined in exclusive biological, cultural, and/or historical terms, above all other sources of loyalty, and to create a mobilized national community.[1] Many different characteristics are attributed to fascism, but the following elements are usually seen as its integral parts: authoritarianism, nationalism, militarism, corporatism, anti-conservatism, anti-liberalism, and anti-communism.
en.wikipedia.org...

The 14 Characteristics of Fascism
by Lawrence Britt

3.
Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause
The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

4
Supremacy of the Military
Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

6
Controlled Mass Media
Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

9
Corporate Power is Protected
The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

12
Obsession with Crime and Punishment
Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

www.ratical.org...

Etc. Etc.

It sounds like the "Americanofashist" movement fits this discription quite good.

The most notable characteristic of a fascist country is the separation and persecution or denial of equality to a specific segment of the population based upon superficial qualities or belief systems.
www.couplescompany.com...

It's a point I've made (and a source I've quoted) on other threads. And nefomore, I think FlyersFan is a she.

The problem is the authoritarian mindset.

Here you can find some of the key traits:

• Conventionalism -- the tendency to accept and obey social conventions and the rules of authority figures; adherence to the traditional and accepted
  
• Authoritarian Submission -- submission to authorities and authority figures
  
• Authoritarian Aggression -- an aggressive attitude towards individuals or groups disliked by authorities; particularly those who threaten traditional values
  
• Anti-Intraception -- rejection of the subjective, imaginative and aesthetic
  
• Substitution and Stereotypy -- superstition, cliché, categorization and fatalistic determinism
  
• Power and Toughness -- identification with those in power, excessive emphasis on socially advocated ego qualities
  
• Destructiveness and Cynicism -- general hostility, putting others down
  
• Projectivity -- the tendency to believe in the existence of evil in the world and to project unconscious emotional impulses outward
  
• Sex -- exaggerated concerns with respect to sexual activity
  

There's also some interesting stuff in Wilhelm Reich's The Mass Psychology of Fascism that bears on the subject.

Which is not to say, of course, that these tendencies do not similiarly manifest in a Muslim context.

[edit on 27-12-2006 by rich23]

posted by Flyersfan
Non-muslim Europe and the UK populations have a low birth rate. There is a very high muslim immigration rate along with very high birth rates. It is entirely foreseeable that France will be a muslim country in one generation. As for England .. I don't know when it will hit 20%, but if given enough time, it isn't out of the question demographically.

Lets just clear this one up, shall we? I try every time some fool posts it, but they conveniently ignore it every time.

Right..

Some People have this misconception that Muslims here have 14 kids and breed like rabbits. Now, I KNOW that isn't true.

It may be the case with actual 1st gen immigrants bringing their families over, they might have a few spare sprogs knocking about, but when those kids go on the breed, the simple fact of high childcare costs and cost of living prohibit them emulating their parents. They cannot afford to outbreed us!

EVERY 2nd generation (or below) Muslim I know has the exact same amount of kids as any white family, for the simple reason of they cannot afford to have a tribe of 15 kids anymore.

There is also a misconception amongst certain right wing Americans that us British (or English as they like to lump us...proves they know little anyway) do not have babies!

Jeebus, I must be hallucinating!

Babies are everywhere! What they are doing is taking population growth statistics and assuming we don't breed.

The fact that the population is growing, albeit slowly, proves that, on average, everyone is having more than 2 kids. To have a negative birth rate, which is not the case, everyone would have to have 1 kid or less. This is most definately not the case!

I have 1 myself and I am only 24, plenty of time to sow the oats yet .

I know many people who have 2, 3 or even 4 kids.

All white.

EDIT: To add some demographics for England (seeing as the yanks think that the Uk stops at Hounslow.....)

Population
male: 23,922,144
female: 25,216,687
total: 49,138,831

Place of birth
UK: 90.7%
EU elsewhere: 2.3%
Outside EU: 7.0%

Ethnicity
White British: 86.99%
White Other: 2.66%
Indian: 2.09%
Pakistani: 1.44%
Mixed: 1.31%
White Irish: 1.27%
Black Caribbean: 1.14%
Black African: 0.97%
Bangladeshi: 0.56%
Other Asian 0.48%
Chinese: 0.45%
Other: 0.44%
Black Other: 0.2%

Religion
Christian: 71.75%
No Religion: 14.81%
"Jedi"[1]: 0.7%
Not Stated: 7.71%
Muslim: 2.97%
Hindu: 1.06%
Sikh: 0.63%
Jewish: 0.5%
Other: 0.29%
Buddhist: 0.28%



[edit on 27/12/06 by stumason]

Originally posted by neformore
if you are sitting in America you really do not know the full picture, do you.

Oh for the love of pete ... you've never heard of the internet or the TV news eh? News information travels the world in an instant. This isn't the 1700s ya' know. People around the world are able to read the information and make their own judgements based on that information.

I note that Flyers has carefully edited his post to make it seem like he has come from a more reasonable position.

I'M A GIRL.

And yes, I called you 'junior'. Your post was juvenile and read like a 14 year old kid home on Christmas break playing with his parents computer in the basement. I went and checked you bio and was VERY surprised to see your biological age as that of an adult, so I removed the 'junior'. It was up for an entire 2 minutes.

That was not in an effort to 'make a more reasonable position'. I don't have to. My position is just fine. I'll repeat it since you obviously didn't bother to take note of it. -

Islamofacist is a term that is just fine with me BECAUSE it separates the facists/terrorists from the rest of the Muslim population. It shows a difference between the average muslim and those that are whacked and terroristic. And as far as why there aren't a lot of muslims going out and protesting the islamofacists, I said it's probably because the average muslim is scared of them, just as many of us are.

If you had bothered to actually read what I posted before you mouthed off, you would have seen that I was not slamming muslims and I wasn't slamming England or France. Saying that highly religious people tend not to want to integrate into secular societies isn't a slam. I said that it is UNDERSTANDABLE.

You still owe me an apology for interjecting all sorts of crap into my post, which was polite and non-confrontational.

- I NEVER said that people should live in 'perpetual fear'.
- I NEVER said that I was an 'expert' on anything.
- I NEVER said that I wasn't interested in comments from people who live in those countries.

On the other hand, YOU don't seem to want people to post polite and rational discussion that you think is in opposition to your beliefs. Comical.

I have made my statement on this subject. I'm not going to further discuss it since you are obviously just trolling and trying to pick a fight where there isn't one.

You see Flyers, herein lies your problem, because I explained where I was coming from in my post above, not only that but I went further and actually called a couple of the points to which you refer.

On the other hand you have ignored every salient point I've made, slandered my age, appear not to have read the posts I contributed before your interjection into the conversation - don't even want to comment on them and appear to have taken the whole matter personally.

Let my try and convey my point more clearly.

If you, as an American, want to push your skewed view of British politics at people, I suggest that you don't try and push it at the people who live here, because it comes across as crassly arrogant, patronising and infuriatingly wrong - as is evidently clear by the posts above written by British and non-American people.

And if you cannot answer side points raised in the spirit of conversation without taking them as some kind of personal sleight against yourself and resorting to name calling then maybe you are in the wrong environment.

And.... I feel the need to point out that, as I stated earlier, TV news IS biased. Web sites don't post the whole story. Sensationalism makes stories and Normalcy does not make news If I took all the news reports from the US, and internet sites from the US I would have to conclude that its a vile place full of gun crime, murderers and gang warfare.

And its not.

And I would not presume to attempt to tell the people there that it was, in any way, shape or form.

[edit on 27/1206/06 by neformore]

[edit on 27/1206/06 by neformore]

Islamofascism is the root of the majority of all terrorists in the world. It's what kept the Taliban in power for many years. Not America, like some of these conspiracy theorists believe.
You know the term 'Islamofascism' is still more accepted than any of those conspiracy theories aimed at the U.S. government...know why? Because there's heaps of evidence behind Islamofascism that is seen everyday in the middle-east and by the actions of those that believe in the Jihadist movement of Islamic world domination.

I clap each time I hear our President say the word "ISLAMOFASCISM/IST" because it stabs the terrorist sympathizers with the truth and they rile up. But what do you expect from terrorist sympathizers, to be rational? I doubt it.