Concealed Carry Options

Here in Arizona, we are fortunate enough to be one of the 36 states which allow citizens the option of concealed carry.

The Concealed Carry of Weapons (CCW) permit requires the completion of 16 hours of compulsary training (now reduced to 8 I believe) which includes basic firearm safety, legal considerations, and weapon/ammunition options - all of which must be studied from printed booklets. The course ends with a written exam and a qualification shoot, both which must of course be successfully completed. You are then fingerprinted and background checked for any criminal convictions. If you pass muster in all areas, you are issued with a 4 year permit that is good for any weapon, no restrictions or serial numbers required.

Originally I did the course as a safety measure. When visiting the range, it's much easier to just throw loaded mags or unused boxes of ammo in the same range bag as the weapons - without a CCW permit this is technically an offence (ammo and guns should be physically separate from each other), even if the weapons are out of reach in the trunk of your vehicle. With a CCW permit you can have the weapons loaded in the bag next to you in the car if you so choose.

I rarely, if ever, carried on my person, there really is no need in southern Phoenix, especially on the edge of the desert where I'm located. The biggest risk animals have 4 legs and not 2 (Coyotes and Javelinas) and usually don't mess with you if you don't mess with them.

The recent appearence of no fewer than 3 serial killers and a parallel rise in illegal alien related crime forced a re-visitation of that pacifist policy and I felt it necessary to pack on a more regular basis as a precaution, especially as the killers were operating in the South of the city, albeit that one of them was "only" killing women.

Carrying a loaded firearm is of course a significant responsibility, and I am happy to say that national statistics show that CCWers are the most responsible, law abiding individuals in any given comunity - which is logical, since the bad guys just carry guns and forego the nuisance of obtaining a permit.

The actual act of carrying is surprisingly difficult, especially in an environment where daytime temperatures routinely reach 110 degrees in Summer, even now at Christmas time, some people are still wearing shorts.

I took a look at my available options, and started out with a H&K USPc stainless in 9mm carried strongside in a leather Galco Summer "In The Waistband" (IWB) holster, carry ammo in 9mm for me is the Speer Gold Dot 124gr +P. I do have some Winchester Rangers in 127gr +P+, but choose not to carry these for legal reasons, even though they are (in my opinion) the best there is. I carried this rig exactly once, and quickly realized that IWB carry, even with a compact gun, wasn't going to work for me, it was just too much like hard work what with wearing a heavy belt, a T-Shirt underneath a bloused over-shirt etc etc

So I switched to ultralights, specifically a Kel-Tec P-32, then a Kel-Tec P-3AT, and occasionally a Smith & Wesson 642 Airweight - all using custom designed pocket holsters for jeans or shorts. The P-3AT rapidly became my favorite choice - .380ACP out of a 2 and a bit inch barrel is very low end when it comes to terminal ballistics (the science of hurting people with projectiles), but the gun weighs almost nothing even when loaded, and seven rounds of .380ACP is certainly useful. So, I had the slide hard chromed for wear resistance (Kel-Tec do the work for $20 plus shipping) and fitted a rubber grip sleeve to improve the ergonomics.

Carry ammo was, and still is, a more difficult choice. Conventional wisdom has it that one should always carry jacketed hollow-points (JHPs) or plain lead hollowpoints in some revolvers, the well respected FBI study on terminal ballistics recommends that any personal defence load must penetrate tissue simulant to a minimum depth of 12 inches. Now even if you can get .380ACP to expand at the super low velocities typical of the P-3AT, it will rarely make 7 inches in testing, even plain Full Metal Jacket (FMJ) rounds struggle to make 12 inches. So I started out with Remington Golden Saber JHPs in the relatively heavy 102gr loading, but later discovered some surplus Spanish police ammunition made by Santa Barbara. This ammunition has a truncated cone profile with a non-expanding exposed lead core, and an enclosed base (the reverse of most designs), it is also the hottest factory ammo I have ever tried in .380ACP, possibly even a little too hot as range testing left me with a slapped hand.

This tiny little rig, complete with an Uncle Mike's #1 pocket holster was my final selection, so I was all set - the only problem is - they just caught all the serial killers

If anyone has gone through similar iterations before finally finding something that worked, I'd be interested to hear - just don't make fun of my mouse gun

Might be different here in Michigan, but CCW is the crime of carring a concealed weapon. To be able to carry, one must have the "Concealed Pistol License", or CPL (not to be confused with CLP or cleaner, lubricant, protectant) not CCW. For all other weapons, such as assault rifles, a "Federal" license is required.

For home and personal defense, I carry a Glock 30 (.45 caliber) with trijicon, and lanyard (braided kevlar) attached. It is a sub-compact pocket pistol that holds 10 rounds per mag, I have four mags (there is no such thing as too much ammo).

The bullets are Federal 230 grain, USA manufactured.

That's a fine choice, I assume your Federals are the Hydrashock variety, and Trijicons are an excellent upgrade.

I'm also guessing you have fairly large hands, double stack .45s (other than the Springfield XD) are way too big for me to hold properly, but the G30 definitely shows a well informed choice.

The retention lanyard addition is interesting, how did you install it? I don't recall the G30 having a lanyard loop fitted as standard.

No actually, the bullets are full metals. I'm not much of a hollow point fan, penetration factor and not wound size, is important to me. HPs are not going to stop an engine block, were as FMJs are going to.


It might not be standard, but the lanyard loop is on my G, really nice too. It's not flush against the mag well, and allows for one to use a loop through lanyard instead of a clip or hook style. I fabricated my lanyard, out of triple weave (or spun) kevlar. It's approximately a 1/4 inch diameter after being braided. Nice stuff, & tactical.

The only rounds I will use for not over penetrating are the frangible.

Well, I agree that in sub-calibers (up to .380ACP) non-expanding rounds are a good idea, but a 230gr .45ACP FMJ will penetrate around 25 inches of tissue simulant, or roughly 3 average people front to back, 2 for sure. Are you really sure that you want your rounds hitting things behind your intended target, not to mention all that wasted energy that is not being transferred into your primary target.

I also think it's a little optimistic to believe that a .45 could penetrate an engine block, and since hollowpoints only expand in fluid, a 230gr JHP will do just as well against an engine block as a 230 grain FMJ anyway.

I'd strongly suggest you switch to a bonded hollowpoint such as the Speer Gold Dot in either 185, 200, or 230 grain weights.

At least in GA and FL all you need is a license to carry a concealed weapon and is only 25 dollars, no classes or anything else but good record is needed.

posted by Retseh

Well, I agree that in sub-calibers (up to .380 ACP) non-expanding rounds are a good idea . . I also think it's a little optimistic to believe that a .45 could penetrate an engine block . . I'd strongly suggest you switch to a bonded hollow point such as the Speer Gold Dot in either 185, 200, or 230 grain weights. [Edited by Don W]

I had a Star PD in .45 ACP and a genuine Colt Commander light weight in .45 ACP. It’s a low velocity round, first adopted by the US Army during the Philippine Insurrection of the early 1900s when the standard .38 S&W would not stop a determined native from striking the shooter with a very sharp machete, frequently with fatal results. As for the engine block story, I first heard that in conjunction with the .357 Magnum. It’s my opinion that neither the .45 ACP nor any variation of the OTC .357 rounds would penetrate a cast iron engine block of the 1960s-1970s era when this story made the rounds. I think only the Dirty Harry .44 Magnum long barrel Ruger, Colt or S&W would do that reliably.

My Q. is this. Once upon a time the .22 rimfire was said to be the weapon that had killed the most people in the US. Was that ever true, and if it was, is it still true? I assume the vast number of .22s would be the unstated fact behind the story, if true.



[edit on 12/25/2006 by donwhite]

Don

I agree about the engine block stories, the military uses a .50BMG for that job. I saw some interesting photos regarding an attempt to shoot off a standard Masterlock, sort of a Mythbusters deal. The .45 and 9mm barely dented it.

As for .22 being the top killer, that was certainly true in the days of the Saturday Night Specials, and probably still is today - it very nearly killed Ronald Reagan, and did in fact kill Bobby Kennedy. I have heard tell that trauma surgeons have a particular dislike for that caliber as it is so difficult for them to trace its path through tissue and even more difficult to locate the bullet, even with the help of X-Rays. It is also sometimes referred to as the "kill you later" round, as victims often don't even realize they have been shot, only to keel over and die an hour or more later. In Reagan's case, the bullet wound could not be located, and the only reason they knew for sure that he had been hit was due to the fact that he was coughing up blood and collapsed in the hospital entrance. The wound was eventually found in his armpit (he was shot while waving).

Although caliber wars will always rage (.45ACP vs. .40S&W vs. 9mm etc), the outcome of a shooting is a lot more to do with shot placement than it is to do with caliber. The Trooper Coates shooting in Carolina showed us that - he was kiled with a single hit from a .22LR, while his killer survived multiple .357 Magnum hits.

Stay safe and shoot straight.

posted by Retseh

I agree about the engine block . . As for .22 being the top killer, that was true in the days of the Saturday Night Specials, and probably still is today . . nearly killed Ronald Reagan and did kill Bobby Kennedy.

Although caliber wars will always rage (.45ACP vs. .40S&W vs. 9mm etc), the outcome of a shooting is more to do with shot placement than it is to do with caliber. Stay safe and shoot straight. [Edited by Don W]

Yup, the .50 cal Browning would do it, if any would. I've had several S&W Mod 60 which I loaded with +P rounds. I believe the Mod 39 S&W - Lightweight? - .38 Special rounds only - is the easiest to carry. Although Colt's have a good trigger pull, I preferred S&W because I prefer an enclosed ejector rod. It looks better. Once upon a time I bought a used Luger in 9 mm, but I could tell right away - before I shot it - that it was too complicated for me. Without having shot it, I traded it for a WW2 .45 of Remington manufacture. At least the slide was. I can take it down field stripping. And reassemble. It may sound strange, but the only gun I’ve ever carried in secret was my first, the .22 Ruger standard with short barrel. It was also one of the most accurate hand guns I ever owed. Shooting on the 1000 inch range from sandbag rest, it was a bulls eye every shot. Presently I have a Beretta Mod 79S, in .22 cal. It fits so well it is a pleasure to operate the slide. I do like the new models of Beretta but I’ve stopped shooting for the most part. I have a Ky CCW permit but I now live in FL 10 months of the year and have no occasion to “carry.” Thanks for your through response. My best to you.


[edit on 12/26/2006 by donwhite]

Hi Don

.22s are immense fun, and anyone who likes classic .38 snubs (I think you'd like a new S&W 642) and classic .22 plinkers is no amateur. Great choices

I assume you already know that your Kentucky CCW is valid in Florida.

Link:

www.packing.org...

Stay safe.

CCWs are next to impossible to get in California unless you are in the public eye or well connected, nevertheless I favor Federal 9mm loaded into a Calco Carbine w/100round magazine.

Originally posted by Retseh
Although caliber wars will always rage (.45ACP vs. .40S&W vs. 9mm etc), the outcome of a shooting is a lot more to do with shot placement than it is to do with caliber. The Trooper Coates shooting in Carolina showed us that - he was kiled with a single hit from a .22LR, while his killer survived multiple .357 Magnum hits.

One would take the Trooper Coates shooting as an anomaly, no? Firstly, that the .22LR round was so immediately fatal, and secondly that the very golden standard of manstopping failed. By every right, the felon in question should have had his insides utterly mulched.

That aside, part of the reason I would not choose a .22 to defend myself is the stopping factor. Given the realities of combat shooting, shot placement can be erratic, and the only sure hits are on the torso. While the .22 will most likely kill me eventually, I will likely have enough time to either maim or kill you. As compared to a larger round where, as shown by the long history of the .45ACP and .357, there is a much high chance of a disabling or killing shot. I don't know, but one does suspect the .22 cannot sever the spinal cord of a man. Should you land a .357 or a .45 on a target's spine, the target will be immediately (and permenantly) incapacitated.

Just something to think about. I was taught that optimally, one is supposed to zipper up the front of a suspect: sternum, collarbone, head- all along the spinal cord if at all possible. That, or the Mozambique on the sternum and one to the head, though the headshot is likely to miss.

DE

I carry a Walther PPK 9mm. Its easy to conceal, I never go without at least four magazines on me.

When I used to carry in the states, I found that a Kel-tec with an IWB clip on the slide was the most comfortable. No holster rig and immediately able to pull. I carried a series of three rounds to fill the magazine, ball, hydrashock, and starfires.
That gun was so comfortable that I used to forget I was carrying it.
Just my 2 cents.

Retseh, is AZ still a "open carry state"? I wish OK was!

Roper

Originally posted by 2stepsfromtop
CCWs are next to impossible to get in California unless you are in the public eye or well connected, nevertheless I favor Federal 9mm loaded into a Calco Carbine w/100round magazine.

That wouldn't be my first choice for concealed carry.

Originally posted by Roper
Retseh, is AZ still a "open carry state"? I wish OK was!

Roper

Hi Roper

AZ is indeed still an open carry state as I was reminded just the other day when getting lunch and sitting next to 2 guys who were both external carrying - and no one so much as batted an eyelid.

For those who like desert hiking, external carry is very common - Javelinas and Coyotes have both been known to attack, then there's the rattlers and of course the ever present threat of running into some cross border smugglers (or decent hard working Mexicans as the liberal press in the North refers to them). A .44 Magnum can be very comforting in such situations - also ideal for snakes when loaded with birdshot, something not well suited to semi-autos because of reliable feed issues.

I love this state, kind of ironic that we border California, now officially a foreign nation I believe

Being a large guy in a CCW state, and having no prob in the summer with having my Hywiaaan shirt hanging out, I elect to have an Autoordnance Model 1911, with hollow points.

I tend to agree with the issue of penetration, although the .45, from any distance probably won't go all the way through someone... Having said that I am probably showing my igernance, as I have no data to back that up. I have, however, seen what a subsonic .45 round from about 12 feet will do to a human body, and it isn't very pretty.

Actually, to the best of my knowledge, the .357 magnum has more documented (by hospital emergency rooms and the like) one shot kills than any other caliber.

Excellent thread.

I voted Retseh 'Way above' for this.

I think it's now the time for people who have been 'non-gun' users to re-consider CCW options. I've used some handguns as part of martial training and our group went to the local gun club and did some weapons firing. My brother and I also went to a firing range at the beach (hi bro) and did some firing.

It's key to get instruction in carry options and to work with some experienced people to learn how to use, clear and clean your weapon.

Retseh really did us a favor by doing all the research and giving us a huge headstart with this thread. It's a keeper!

Oh, another thought is that as the baby boom generation gets older, having some 'protection' like this is important since one is no longer as athletic as in youth. For some people simply being in training and having training injuries can make you less able to respond to a threat.

The idea of keys and whistles and cellphone being your line of SD is a bit optimistic. None of the people that scare me would be stopped by such things.





[edit on 28-12-2006 by Badge01]

[edit on 28-12-2006 by Badge01]

[edit on 28-12-2006 by Badge01]

I started carrying with a 1911 in WA. state. Needless to say, that is a lot of weight to carry at about 40 ounces, and a hassle to conceal on a 5'9 person.
Fortunately the cool weather lended to light jackets most of the year. I found a friend selling a Kel-tec 9mm. I think it was the original P-9, but I sold it after I left the states. It had a factory IWP clip on the slide and was smaller than my hand with extended fingers, and 10 rounds.
Each person has a different idea of how to pull and fire, here are a few thoughts of mine for the different types of pistols.
1911 iterations-ie single action auto(SAA). I carried that "cocked and locked" so all I had to do was drop the safety and pull. Absolutely safe to carry.
Double action autos (DAA). Carry with a round in the chamber and the hammer down. The secondary pull of the trigger to pull the hammer back on the first round is significantly longer, but acts as a normal auto with low pulling strength after first round. Absolutely safe in all conditions. You have to practice pulling with that in mind and understand where on the trigger pull the hammer will fall on the first round.
Revolvers, both single action (SA) and double action (DA). Many carry older single action revolvers on an empty cylinder to preclude a shot if a pistol is dropped. Mose newer SA revolvers have a safety plate for this that blocks the firing pin from the cartridge. Double action revolvers are the same as a DAA. Some are hammerless for conceal pulling and some are not. Highly reliable and can get at featherweight down to about 13 or 14 ounces loaded.
Hardcore reliability from a featherweight hammerless revolver as a CCW weapon is a good choice, and they tend to be cheaper than the autos.
I still loved how that Kel-Tec shot though, and they make pretty good cheap weapons.
'Das Boot