is suicide selfish?

ive been cinsidering putting this up for a topic but i wasnt sure what reaction id get. but ill go for it.
some people think that comitting suicide is a sign of weakness, that theyre giving in too easy and not thinking of others. but some people, like myself, have considered it when times are really bad. some religions are very much against it, saying that 'its denying god's power' or something like that.
is this right?

The answers are obvious.
Of course it is selfish to hurt your friends and your family by killing yourself.

As limited creatures with limited knowledge and a very, very foggy concept of what the future holds for us, to kill oneself is to quite possibly rob oneself of great happiness, and deny God's plan for the person.

Come, come, Dear Kim,
since it involves the conscious negation of the "self" -let us leave motives aside -what else could it be?
"unselfish" would appear to be the only logical alternative answer.
While current posters occasionally incline one to that answer - it's plainly unsatisfactory.
What do you mean by "suicide"?
What do you mean by "selfish" ?
Linguistic clarity occasionally (say, 99.9% of the time) helps.

what else could i mean by suicide? when their life is so messed up, that the only solution seems to end it all. suicide- to kill ones self
i suppose i shouldnt have used the word 'selfish' maybe 'wrong' is easier to relate to. i know it hurts other people, but what if things are really bad for them? i'm interested in what people think cos ive thought about it so much
its kind of like euthanasia isn't it? does a person have a right to kill themselves when in pain- be it physical, mental or emotional?

I don't think it's so much selfish as it is the act of despair of someone who has no other way of escape and can't continue in the situation. There is/was "suicide for noble causes" (Japanese seppuku, Roman "falling on your own sword") -- and for misguided causes (lovers' suicide pacts, kids killing themselves because the family will be "better off" without them) and impulsive suicides and revenge suicides (my uncle was one of those... had an argument with his wife and was drunk and walked into the bedroom and shot himself in front of her.)

It's hard to say the motivation unless you were standing there and peeking into the person's mind.

It depends Kim.

If you commit a suicide cuz you have some money problems, yeah, it's selfish.

OTH, think to this case : 1943, you're a resistant, surround by SS troops who want to catch you and torture you. You have many data & infos about your resistance network, and you don't know if you can resist to torture, and may be you'll tell them what they want to know.

In this case, it's not selfish.You're giving your live for your resistance friends.

But if you have not any data & infos cuz you don't know anything, you can't do it.

Weird....In some cases you can do it, in others you can't do it.

I agree with ultra_pheonix.

should we for grins move this into the R/S forum?



[Edited on 15-11-2002 by Bob88]

I'm replying here because there was a kind of religious question put by kim.

I cannot agree with Ultra Pheonix. I believe that under no circumstances should someone take their own life. Yes kim it is denying the power of God. For God is able to deliver anyone out of any situation. I also Believe (and the Bible backs this up) that anyone who commits suicide cannot be redemmed and their only place is in hell. In Gods sight suicide is murder, and all murderers who take away a life that God has given will be Judged.

I also recommend everybody see the old but good film " the Greatest Gift" staring James stuart.

I believe it is wrong to take your own life. The terrible pain you inflict, on the ones that love you is the worst thing you can do to someone! It's lame and a cowardly way out. Get help to solve whatever is wrong. Like the Preacher said, you may be really sorry, in the afterlife. Think about it!

What if you were too shortsighted( obviously) to see the solution to your problem and it was only seconds away and you whacked yourself? It's food for thought, but you should never even consider it. Never give up, never give in. I guess if you snuff yourself tou find the answer but you don't really find the answer. What would the Pope say?-Troy

stewards, a suicide is one thing.

Giving your live for someone is another thing.

Another exemple : You are a climber, you are suspended over a cliff, with your son.
Your robed party have only one cord and can resist ONLY with one people.

You have no choice !

1) You don't let you fall, and in 2 or 3 minutes, both of you are deads.

2) You let you fall, but your son will be safe.

1) What's your reaction ?

2) Is it a suicide or not ?

Don't even consider it. It's the devil telling you to give in, cause he wants you.
God said, "I will not put upon you any more than you can handle", So handle it.
Although, there have been times I wish he didn't think so highly of me. LOL

So Bruno, in my supposition, you and your son are dead.

Who's the selfish ?

Kim, ignore the other religions, they deny suicide's roll in society because everyone would kill themselves to go to heaven that kinda thing.

I like what a great teacher of mine once said.

"Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem"

She said that shortly after one of our friends at school purposely got themselves ran over by a pick-up because they were "fed" up with life, to sum it up.

Basically a large amount of suicides is that type, the pity suicide, which is stupid, because you are quickly forgotten. All the dead are. Life consumes us and killing yourself won't make anyone care longer than the moment, even parents look for a way to not think about it.

UP, what you asked is is that suicide? (The falling bit) no, that's sacrifice, it all falls under the same umbrella but the difference is one is to save lives, the other is to end them.

Another good form of suicide is the ritual atonement, such as hari cari, in which you've dishonored your family and publically remove all shame by admitting your dishonor in a "permanent" way.

Ok now that I have stated my opinions, now I have also read ALL the posts...now I came up with an interesting question.

What is so wrong in OUR society, that would make someone want to commit suicide?

Suicide should have a good reason, and debt-lack of attention-over worked, these are NOT good reasons.

Most of the feelings people get are the confused reactions of self determination, and public "obliviousness" to your being. You can think of it in the way that you are oblivious to others, we all are.

Has our society change? Are we so stressed and oblivious of eachother now that we feel we have no futures? Or has it always been like this through out all history?

Sincerely,
no signature

interesting views people.

so, if its to save someone, then its ok, but if its to release yourself, then it isn't? stewards though, would you do as UP said and save your son, but take your life? i dont think god would save you here. by comiiting suicide, you say youre 'sinning' but by not saving your son, wouldnt it be murder? and isnt this worse?
i agree that to kil yourself because of debts is really selfish cos then theyre dumped on your family. but i do think that there are things so bad (FM) that drive people to suicide. a lot of them are teens ill admit that feel unexcepted,unloved or like a freak, i dont think that these people should kill themselves cos theyve got their whole life ahead of them. but in some cases, its amazing what can go wrong in peoples life. some people look for help, like councellors, psychiaritrists etc but they dont always help- ive found this to be true. so its not like they go "hey i feel sad, lets kill myself"- they can actually look for help, but still go away emptyhanded

Originally posted by Bruno
Don't even consider it. It's the devil telling you to give in, cause he wants you.
God said, "I will not put upon you any more than you can handle", So handle it.
Although, there have been times I wish he didn't think so highly of me. LOL

Are you friend with Truth and TOT ?

Ok, things must be clear : I'm anti-suicide, but if I have to give my live to save my daughter, I'll do it !

When you let your kids dieing, you're just a #%*� bast*�% !!!


[Edited on 15-11-2002 by ultra_phoenix]

You damn intellectuals are very dangerous people.
Common sense has already told Kim that what she is considering is selfish. Thats why she is asking for support for the idea.
Too Phoenix....I find it hard to respond to a cartoon charater but I will try.
It's against the law to commit Suicide, against the laws of man and God, therefore it is wrong.
God said, "there is no greater sacrafice than to give ones life for another". So, would I give up my life for my children? In a heart beat.
Would I step in front of a bullet ment for even Phoenix, I would like to think so.
This is not Suicide, but something else entirely.
Kim, Love is the greatest emotion that man or woman has ever encountered.
I love you because God loves you. If you love God he will return that love ten fold, and your burden won't feel so heavy.
This doesn't mean that you will not feel pain or dispare at times, but that Love will carry you through those bad times.
Death is so final. There are no second chances after death.
Out of all the possibilities in the univurse, you were chosen, and given life. Would you end it so carelessly.

Originally posted by Bruno

1) You damn intellectuals are very dangerous people.

2) God said, "there is no greater sacrafice than to give ones life for another". So, would I give up my life for my children? In a heart beat.

3) Would I step in front of a bullet ment for even Phoenix, I would like to think so.

1) Who ? Me ?

2)

3)

Mr UP

I'm afraid that I can see that you have twisted your own words.

First of all you mentioned a resistant who could either evade capture by killing himself or get caught and recieve torture and hand over info. This is not the same as nor can it be compared to the father and son cliff situation. If that resistant were to have killed himself this would have been suicide only and not a suicide to save others. But in the case of the father and son. If the father let go of the rope to save his son then he is clearly laying down his life for another. The bible says that there is no greater love than a man who lays down his life for his brother. So on this case it would not be seen as murder in Gods sight. But it would be seen as murder in Gods sight if the resistant had killed himself because his life was the only one in danger there. We should never commit suicide if it is not necessary. If it was an immeadiate life and death situation as in the case of the father and son over a cliff then the father giving up his life for his son would have been seen as a good deed in Gods sight.

I'm sure that you are able to judge the difference between the two scenarios and also the difference in a situation that requires quick thinking and one where we would have time for thought.

This is the one thing that grieves me the most, if someone were to talk about taking their own life, because as a christian and knowing what the bible says, they do not know that by commiting suicide they are only heading to a worse problem. HELL.