Reincarnation and the bible ... an old horse flogged to death - repeatedly

Speaking stickily on the issue of BS where exactly NC do you get the idea that Reincarnation results in lawlessness?

Who's country is less afflicted by such issues? Which country has never raised an army and gone out to conquer?

The interesting thing about the Tibetans, NC is that they will not fight to protect there territory. But try to change fundamentally there system of belief and they are ferocious. There is in actuality no Tibetan Mafia; do you know what the crime rate is in that country?

Well actually they have NO crime because there is no more tibet It's been conquered by the evil chinese...but it is actually quite interesting...while any member of the Tibetian monastery would not fight, they did have soldiers...I'm not sure WHO comprised their soldiers...but they did have them and they did fight.

A question the Dalai Lama asked one of his gaurds once was..."Why do you fight?" and he replied..."They fight for you your holiness...is that wrong?"

That was during the Chinese occupation as he was fleeing to India...not sure of the exact date.

But still...they have refrained from combat TREMENDOUSLY....and shun it even when they are forced into it...and well, now they aren't even a nation any more because of that shunning, stupid chinese, at least they haven't destroyed all the culture there (I mean like statues and stuff) if it were Muslims who took over they'd have tore down everything.

Like in Afghanistan

Sincerely,
no signature

[Edited on 11-11-2002 by FreeMason]

Reincarnation in Judaism, Christianity, Islam

Hints of reincarnation are also common in the history of Judaism and early Christianity. Information about past and future lives is found throughout the Cabala, which according to many Hebraic scholars represents the hidden wisdom behind the scriptures. In the Zohar, one of the principal Cabalistic texts, it is said, "The souls must reenter the absolute substance whence they have emerged. But to accomplish this, they must develop all the perfections, the germ of which is planted in them; and if they have not fulfilled this condition during one life, they must commence another, a third, and so forth, until they have acquired the condition which fits them for reunion with God." According to the Universal Jewish Encyclopedia, the Hasidic Jews hold similar beliefs.

In the third century A.D., the theologian Origen, one of the fathers of the early Christian Church, and its most accomplished Biblical scholar, wrote, "By some inclination toward evil, certain souls ... come into bodies, first of men; then through their association with the irrational passions, after the allotted span of human life, they are changed into beasts, from which they sink to the level of plants. From this condition they rise again through the same stages and are restored to their heavenly place."

There are many passages in the Bible itself indicating that Christ and his followers were aware of the principle of reincarnation. Once, the disciples of Jesus asked him about the Old Testament prophecy that Elias would reappear on earth. In the Gospel of St. Matthew we read, "And Jesus answered them, Elias shall truly first come, and restore all things. But I say unto you, that Elias is come already, and they knew him not. Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist." In other words, Jesus declared that John the Baptist, who was beheaded by Herod, was a reincarnation of the prophet Elias. In another instance, Jesus and his disciples came across a man blind from birth. The disciples asked Jesus, "Who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?" Regardless who had sinned, Jesus replied, here was a chance to show a work of God. He then cured the man. Now, had the man been born blind for a sin of his own, it must have been a sin done before his birth�that is, in a previous life. And this was a suggestion that Jesus did not dispute.

The Koran says, "And you were dead, and He brought you back to life. And He shall cause you to die, and shall bring you back to life, and in the end shall gather you unto Himself." Among the followers of Islam, the Sufis especially believe that death is no loss, for the immortal soul continually passes through different bodies. Jalalu 'D-Din Rumi, a famous Sufi poet, writes,

I died as a mineral and became a plant,
I died as a plant and rose to animal,
I died as animal and I was man.
Why should I fear?
When was I less by dying?

The timeless Vedic scriptures of India confirm that the soul, according to its identification with material nature, takes one of 8,400,000 forms and, once embodied in a certain species of life, evolves automatically from lower to higher forms, ultimately attaining a human body. Thus, all of the major Western religions�Judaism, Christianity, and Islam�have definite threads of reincarnation throughout the fabric of their teachings, even though the official custodians of dogma ignore or deny them.

-----------------------------
Agreed FM Tibet is no longer considered a country. But if you look at its history it have been conquered so many times but never acted as Conquerer.

No Tibetan Empire

Yes...point taken but sadly the whole world does not agree...still though, it takes 2 to agree to fight...for there to be a fight

And that Sufi proverb is AWESOME...I shall remember that one...

Also to all those well versed in the bible...I would like to hear your responses on my new post...Does the Bible support Polytheism?

So far you've all been hiding from it!!! I demand you better enlighten us on these parts of the bible.

Now let us see have I anything further to add on reincarnation??? Hmm...Well since I know little of verses in the bible...I shall raise the question...where in the bible does it shun reincarnation?

Sincerely,
no signature

Originally posted by Toltec
Speaking stickily on the issue of BS where exactly NC do you get the idea that Reincarnation results in lawlessness?

I never said that at all...

Who's country is less afflicted by such issues? Which country has never raised an army and gone out to conquer?

What does this have to do with reincarnation?

The interesting thing about the Tibetans, NC is that they will not fight to protect there territory.

Utter rubbish they had forts strongholds etc and held out against the chinese as best they could. They were betraayed by one of their own, that is why the lost ... as well as being militarily inferior.

But try to change fundamentally there system of belief and they are ferocious. There is in actuality no Tibetan Mafia; do you know what the crime rate is in that country?

Toltec what does this have to do with the topic? Don't idealize a people just to fit your plan, sure they were pacifists, but what does that show? Nothing...

You still have shown nothing from the bible to substantiate your position and are just cutting and pasting articles ad nauseum. The last post contains the same stuff I had shown to be twisted verses from earlier. Nothing new.

Do you actually read this?

[Edited on 11-11-2002 by Netchicken]

Originally posted by NetChicken
Utter rubbish they had forts strongholds etc and held out against the chinese as best they could. They were betraayed by one of their own, that is why the lost ... as well as being militarily inferior.

Where'd you come up with that nonesense?????? BETRAYED!!!! I THINK NOT! Review your history, or provide a source better than mine!

Now as to WHY Toltec was pointing out all that, if you are so blunt as to not be able to remember even one of your own posts....you were mocking Karma...as an attempt to discredit reincarnation...remember??? Just a few posts back....

"You sick, your problem, your bad karma!"

And you still refuse to give your opinion on that scripture I wrote...do you yeild to it??? DO YOU ADMIT IT IS IREFUTABLE EVIDENCE OF REINCARNATION! IF NOT THEN SPEAK NOW GOOD SIR!

Sincerely,
no signature

That particular quote was taken out of context, FM...Jesus was asked face-to-face if he was the reincarnation of John the Baptist & Jesus replied "no". Jesus further clarified that the *spirit* of both were similar, but not the same spirit.

For example, the US Government has twisted themselves away from the "spirit" of the Founding Fathers...It's more speaking of having a similar *outlook*, not literally having the same soul. Simply a misinterpretation between the two words "spirit" & "soul".

Toltec and Freemason are Just not understaning Scripture, I feel it is because of their unbelief and sceptisism that they cannot interpret.

I'II ask you both if you know the true way of interpreting the Bible, Well do you?.

It is no secret either, Jesus said we must be baptised in the Holy spirit in order to know the hidden things of God. We will know the spiritual meaning of Gods word if we are baptised in the Holy spirit.

It is written that the spirit searches the things of God, yea the deep things of God.

Our Limited minds cannot interpret Gods word alone. We need the guidance of Gods spirit in order to understand.

Toltec Every verse you have mentioned does not indicate in anyway about reincarnation. You are just coming up with pithy sayings and random verses taking them completely out of context and missing what Gods message really is.

You wrote a post on this thread earlier with about 10 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, words in it. well I'm so sorry for you. This is not what God means nor is it his message at all.

Open up your eyes and your heart to what God really wants to speak to you
today.

Steward you talk about the way to interpret Scripture. I spent roughly 7 years of my life in Christian schools so yes I do understand about the way preferred by the Vatican to interpret Scripture (I also minored in religion while working on my BA).I also spent a substantial part of my life studding Christianity under the auspices of the Indian culture I am from. There are substantial differences, amongst them is an acceptance of Reincarnation.

In the Western Hemisphere Steward Vatican 1 attempted Genocide against
only one culture and that would be mine. And for the record that was not because
they believed in Reincarnation

Keep in mind Steward The thanksgiving Holiday's celebrated in the United States
is not a Catholic Holiday. But in may in fact be related to a Christian one

Toltec

Are you mad at me? O please dont be cross at what I said, this is only what the Bible teaches.

listen.

Firstly please don't asociate me with the Roman catholics, I would never have anything to do with them,

Also if you say that the only way to interpret scripture is by going to christian school and being taught by scholars, and getting yourself a BA. Then why did'nt Jesus just send hid diciples to the synagogues to learn?. Why did he teach them in the desert?. Why does not the Bible say we should go to a Christian school to learn how to interpret scripture?.

I have practically no education, I have ended up as a truck driver. The Bible does not say we need a BA. The bible teaches that God calls the Humble, Those who are simple and teachable, and not those who are proud and full of wisdom.
( I am not refering to you). If we go according to our own understanding we shall fail. We must learn to let Gods spirit teach us. This is the word of God, and not the Roman catholics idea.

P.s
I'm thankful for the thanksgiving tradition in the USA.

Excuse me NC but have been both to the Vatican as well as Tibet. Your comment regarding mental inferiority is sadly mistaken. I love it when a person claims something is heretical it only proves that the Church felt threatened (at some point in time in history).

NC what is actually nauseating is the lack of respect for systems of belief of some.
By those who lack the sophistication to realize where in a religious book. A culture presented politically motivated thought.

How is Reincarnation Heresy? Are you suggesting that in the past it was a motivation to burn people alive?

What is the current consequence for accepting such an idea?

NC not sure what your motivations are as steward has stated its simply another interpretation. On which was completely functional until those who use words such as Heresy started killing them by the 10 of thousands

The Bible can be interpreted to acknowledge Reincarnation.

What are your thoughts?

Steward you have not done anything to make me angry. And that is a good point
in relation to my non-formal and tribal education. In regard to your comments on Reincarnation and Demons I admit my response was measured. Its intent to suggest that other cultures found effective ways to address the issue of religion and spiritualism. And as well
that there exist differences, does not invalidate them or require and
accusation of Heresy to control.

Originally posted by Stewards
It is no secret either, Jesus said we must be baptised in the Holy spirit in order to know the hidden things of God.

Well Stewards...I hate to break this to you, but I'm then LIVING PROOF THAT YOUR RELIGION IS FALSE!

Because I may have BECOME atheist, but my family is still devoutly religious and I was babtized like the rest of you when I was 4 maybe 3 and continued going to Church every week until I finally GREW UP and realized that "God" on a throne is a bunch of bunk. Jesus...just a man with an idea (so elloquently put in DOGMA but you probably think that movie is EVIL), you follow scriptures thousands of years old, re-written dozens of times...by people who had selfish agendas of "conquering the world".

Now...that doesn't mean what is IN the bible has no merrit, but you all are falling into the realm of fanaticism, not spiritualism, you are taking every word, and you won't veiw it in any way but how you think GOD tells you to view it.

You should step back and look at it from a distance for once, too much reading can make you near sited.

Sincerely,
no signature

Toltec & FM already know that each person's releationship with God is *personal*...I can see this in they way they write & in the questions they ask. Therefore, formal learning & education in scriptures is pretty much usless; This type of "education" only teaches them what someone else *wants* them to believe. This is how such apparent contradictions creep into discussions over the contents of the Bible itself.

Those apprent discrepencies I've mentioned happen mostly when certain passages are taken out of context with the whole...Yet, to understand the whole, you must examine each passage individually & then apply it as it *relates* to the whole. This is the only way to truly learn what scriptures say & mean. Once the *whole* is understood *as* a whole, then they can reach true understanding. Also apply what *other* knowledge you can learn from other sources & figure out how it *coincides* with the scipture & what changes have been made to the scriptures over time. I've spent more than 15 years picking apart parts of the Bible to seek understanding...I still can't say the I understand the whole Bible *fully*. However, the best I can do is to help others understand what I've learned in my own studies. I don't try to teach anyone else *what* to learn, only *how* to teach themselves as I learned how to teach myself.

The best anyone can do to help them find their own relationship with God is for someone tho show them how they found their own relationship with Him & guide them in understanding what it written. The understanding must be found by themselves...Otherwise, the relationship with God is not theirs.

That's what I try to do...Answer their questions as best I can & hope they understand me first, then understand what it means to *them* next.

The awesome charisma of Jesus Christ and his good-news ministry profoundly changed the lives of those who knew him and who followed soon after. The enthusiasm and spirit of the first Christians spread through the Middle East until what had begun as an inspired cult of Jews in dusty Judea grew to be a revolutionary religious movement pervading the whole Roman Empire. As the ideas spread, they percolated through the practices and theologies of existing religions and took on forms that Jesus would not have recognized�especially the institution of a formal priesthood to mediate between man and God. Throughout the first three centuries of the Christian era, there was no single Christian doctrine. Christian theology and doctrine�interpretations of Christ's teachings blended with ideas from other philosophies and religions�were hotly debated for at least three hundred years. Many of the tenets of the faith that Christians take for granted today were, during this long period of flux, simply one point of view among many.

It is a fact that some Christian sects and writers accepted reincarnation as an enhancement to the teachings of Christ. Origen, one of the heralded Fathers of the Church and described by Saint Gregory as "the Prince of Christian learning in the third century," wrote: "Every soul comes into this world strengthened by the victories and weakened by the defeats of its previous life."

So if reincarnation was an idea in currency with early Christians, why have all traces of it disappeared from the Christian religion we know today?

By the early fourth century, strong Christian factions were vying with each other for influence and power, while at the same time the Roman Empire was beginning to fall apart. In A.D. 325, in a move to renew the unity of the empire, the absolute dictator Emperor Constantine convened the leaders of the feuding Christian factions at the Council of Nicaea. He offered to throw his imperial power behind the Christians if they would settle their differences and agree on a single creed. Decisions made at this first council set the foundation for the Roman Catholic Church. (Soon after, the books of the Bible were fixed too.) For the sake of unity, all beliefs that conflicted with the new creed were banished; in the process the factions and writings that supported reincarnation were thrown out.

Then, with the applause and support of the Christian leaders, Constantine moved to eliminate competing religions, and to make his personal grip on the Empire even more absolute. The result of the marriage between church and imperial state was a new Church made in the image of the autocratic Roman Empire. This is why, according to some historians, the Church exalts unquestioned central authority, imposes a singular dogmatic creed on its followers, and works so hard to stamp out divergent ideas. This is important, because reincarnation fell outside the official creed.

Apparently some Christians continued to believe in reincarnation even after the Council of Nicaea, because in A.D. 553 the Church found the need to single out reincarnation and condemn it explicitly. At the Second Council of Constantinople the concept of reincarnation, bundled together with other ideas under the term "pre-existence of the soul", was decreed to be a crime worthy of excommunication and damnation ("anathema"):

If anyone assert the fabulous pre-existence of souls, and shall assert the monstrous restoration which follows from it: let him be anathema.

Why would the Church go to such lengths to discredit reincarnation? The implicit psychology of reincarnation may be the best explanation. A person who believes in reincarnation assumes responsibility for his own spiritual evolution through rebirth. He does not need priests, confessionals, and rituals to ward off damnation (all ideas, incidentally, that were not part of Jesus' teachings). He needs only to heed his own acts to himself and others. A belief in reincarnation eliminates the fear of eternal hell that the Church uses to discipline the flock. In other words, reincarnation directly undermines the authority and power of the dogmatic Church. No wonder reincarnation made the Defenders of the Faith so nervous.

Despite the decree of 553, belief in reincarnation persisted among the rank and file. It took another thousand years and much bloodshed to completely stamp out the idea. In the early thirteenth century, the Cathars, a devout and enlightened sect of Christians who believed in reincarnation, flourished in Italy and southern France. The pope launched a crusade to stop their heresy, a half million people were massacred whole villages at a time, and the Cathars were totally wiped out. This purging set the tone for the brutal Inquisition that began soon after. Not only was a belief in reincarnation cause for persecution, but so was belief in any metaphysical idea that fell outside the bounds of Church dogma.

The murderous efficiency of the Inquisition proved effective. The persecution by the institutional Church has scarred our collective psyche and surrounded us with an invisible fence dividing what is safe from what is dangerous to believe. Since then, people who harbor forbidden ideas have learned to keep their thoughts to themselves. Our cultural memory still carries the fear of reprisal for publicly associating with any occult practices, the use of psychic powers, or a belief in reincarnation.

Here it is, the source of the double standard. No wonder so many people today believe in reincarnation privately but are afraid that if they come out publicly, they will be attacked for being weird�the modern word for heresy. Maybe by understanding where this fear comes from we can negate its hold on us and turn off the invisible fence. So when our children speak of past lives, we can follow our hearts and not our fears�and believe them.

Originally posted by FreeMason
I just want to say WHAT THE HELL!!!!!!!!!!

Isaiah 14:13
You thought you would sit like a king on that mountain in the north where the gods assemble.

Will someone better versed in the bible please explain this passage to me??? Because I'll be damned if that's not a reference to polytheism!

I know it's out of context of this thread but I was looking through the bible for anything resembling reincarnation and ran across this, which also talks about a world of the dead, instead of heaven and hell! EXPLAIN!!! NC TRUTH TC ANYONE?

Sincerely,
no signature

Quote///

And though the Scriptures show that we will be resurrected as mature adults (the standard would seem to be our Lord who was resurrected with a body of just over thirty years in appearance),
we will still have to learn all the spiritual principles of divine life and just how the universe works, etc.
How long will it take to do this? No one knows for sure, but we may have some biblical hints.

When Christ returns and our resurrections take place, the earth itself will be subjected to great trials and afflictions.
The wrath of God is described from Revelation chapter 7 and on to chapter 16. It will be a devastating judgment on the earth.
Isaiah seems to describe it in his 24th chapter.
This is a chapter that most astronomers today would feel describes the earth being hit by an asteroid (or something like it) with a world-wide destruction.
It will be so destructive that Isaiah said there will be only a “few men left” (verse 6).
Egypt will be so destroyed that no person (not even animals) will pass through it for forty years (Ezekiel 29:8–16).
Commerce on earth among the nations will altogether cease for a period of seventy years (Isaiah 23:17–18).
The land of Babylon and the region of Edom will be so devastated that they will never recover for the whole of the Millennium (Isaiah chapters 13–14 and 34).

helen...

Today being sat 23rd April....
The Seventh Sign

The Raising of Lazarus — John 11:1-54
We celebrate this Gospel passage each year on the day just before Palm Sunday: Lazarus Saturday.
This is the Savior’s last and greatest sign.
Jesus is the Source of eternal life and resurrection for all.
In this passage we see Jesus as the Life of the World.
Although Lazarus will die again (this is simply a resuscitation of his body) it is a first installment,
so to speak,
of the Resurrection and the Life (see Jn. 5:21, 25, 28).
Again we hear the divine statement: “I AM” — there should be no mistake this time about just who Jesus says He Is.
Nonetheless,
He groans in the spirit and is “deeply moved, troubled” because He was face to face with the realm of Satan, here represented by death.
He weeps.
He undoubtedly knows that this ultimate and greatest Sign would bring about His own Passion and Death.
The Father has given over to His Son the power over death and life (see Jn. 5:24-29).
This last and greatest sign has two different effects: an outburst of faith in Jesus as the Messiah and an outburst of hostility on the part of the Jewish authorities.
This leads to two “outcomes.” The authorities sentence Him to death — but ultimately this only paves the way to His (and our) Resurrection.

www.stnicholaspdx.org...

Glory be to God.....
helen.....

Originally posted by Toltec
Scriptural support for reincarnation
There are many Bible verses which are suggestive of reincarnation. ...

I'm not sure we are safe making inferences from passages which do not directly discuss the subject, while ignoring those which specifically rebut the point. It seems like wishful thinking to me.

The fathers do not believe in reincarnation. Even Origen, whose day-job was as a philosopher and so has to discuss it, explicitly denies it in the Commentary on Matthew. This from a post online, since I can't access CCEL at the moment:

In his commentary on Matthew, he directly considers this under the
title "Relation of John the Baptist to Elijah---the Theory of Transmigration Considered":

In this place, it does not appear to me that by Elijah the
soul is spoken of, lest I should fall into the dogma of
transmigration, which is foreign to the Church of God and
not handed down by the Apostles, nor anywhere set forth in
the Scriptures. For observe, [Matthew] did not say, in the
"soul" of Elijah, in which case the doctrine of transmigration
might have some ground, but "in the spirit and power of Elijah".

In another place, he says

Let others who are strangers to the doctrine of the Church
assume that souls pass from the bodies of men into the bodies
of dogs. We do not find this at all in the Divine Scriptures.

Due to the condemnation of reincarnation by church authorities some 500 years after Jesus left the scene...

Reincarnation is not preached by the fathers, and the citations above from the NT fail to convince.

The belief in many incarnation of Jesus is not a new belief. The early Judeo-Christian group known as the Ebionites taught that the Spirit had come as Adam and later reincarnated as Jesus. Other Jewish Christian groups such as the Elkasaites and Nazarites also believed this. The Clementine Homilies, an early Christian document, also taught many incarnations of Jesus.

The opinions of heretical groups are not evidence on Christian teaching, because a heresy, by definition, consists of people making up their own teachings. The Clementine Homilies are a 4th century text.

Ancient writings were discovered in 1945 which revealed more information about the concept of reincarnation from a sect of Christians called "Gnostics". This sect was ultimately destroyed by the Roman orthodox church, their followers burned at the stake and their writings wiped out.

The gnostics were not a Christian group, but pagans who introduced Jesus into their diverse mythologisings. Again, their views do not have relevance to early Christian teaching, and are explicitly denied by all those who really have some connection to Christ and the apostles.

Gnosticism went out of fashion in the 3rd century, as the Roman empire became much less comfortable. Telling yourself fairy-tales is not much comfort in hard times, and so it is barely mentioned in late imperial law books.

The writings included some long lost gospels, some of which were written early than the known gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

The 'gospels' were fakes, none manufactured earlier than the second century.

A fragment of the Secret Gospel of Mark, one of the Gnostic texts discovered, describes Jesus performing secret initiation rites. Before the discovery of Gnostic writings, our only knowledge of it came from a letter written by Church Father Clement of Alexandria (150 AD - 211 AD), which quotes this secret gospel ...

Secret Mark is not a Nag Hammadi text, but may be a forgery concocted by Morton Smith in the 1950's. All that is known is the letter written on the fly-leaf of a printed edition, supposedly a copy of a much older letter of Clement of Alexandria. There is no consensus as to whether the letter of Clement is authentic, still less whether Secret Mark ever existed.

The following are some the secret teachings of Jesus from the Gnostic gospels that affirm reincarnation, revealing the secret knowledge:

The gnostic texts have no connection with Jesus, according to Irenaeus. He was in a position to know as he was taught by Polycarp who knew the apostle John personally. Instead they teach pagan ideas, including the transmigration of souls.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Hello,
I'm not actually going to contribute to this debate, but i read the first post by the thread author and i just wanted to mention this.
Okay reincarnation is simply the Transmigration of a soul from one life onto the next. And thats it.....thats exactly what it is...you live, you die....and l8r on you're reborn again into another body and follow the same process of living and dying. That is reincarnation...
The belief that you might be reborn again in the form of a cockroach is the concept of Karma in hinduism. However i personally, do not believe in this law of Karma, but i do believe in reincarnation.
So make sure youre clear on what your saying is wrong, you need to mention the law of karma if your talking about being reborn again as a cockroach, lol. But reincarnation by itself does not include this, its being reborn into another human body. Only when the law of Karma is included does being reborn as a cockroach come into play.
Thanks, just felt i needed to clear that up, sorry.
Best wishes,
Dani

(Stewards) AS You, I'm very little in Education and I am aware of the scholars that I read of in theses threads. I'm also a over the road truck driver of almost 30 years and as You I have found out that the Bible is impossible to understand without the help of the Holy spirit, ( I refer to Matthew 13:10-15) and without it, the hole book makes no since to many but once you understand it really a greate book to read..
Back to the subject at hand, You can not be reincarnated unless You die, The Spirit (soul) will never die and that is the first thing we have to understand and with that You and stop a lot of the threads that keep asking the same thing and always get the same answards from the same pople everytime.
The people that do not understand will never agree with a beliver and the fight will always be ongoing till the end. The people that has problins with the Bible need to agree with only people that belives as thay do.
If you are not open to what the Bible teaches, You will always fight it and for what it stands for which will get anyone anywhere !!!!!!!!!!!!