Native New Zealanders

WELLINGTON, New Zealand (AP) -- The government rejected a proposal that indigenous Maori be compensated for the loss of revenues and rights for oil and gas.

The Waitangi Tribunal, an independent board which makes recommendations on historic Maori grievances to the government, said earlier that Maori tribes were entitled to millions of dollars in petroleum royalties that had been collected by central government.

Alien. What are you gonna do about this?????
I cant beleive that another goverment in the world would just take things and not pay for them.
Being native american this read was very interesting to me as my people have gone through the same thing. Only when oil was discovered on our land they renigged on the treaty and told us to move somewhere else.??
AMAZING!
Good luck to the natives in their fight to what is rightfully theirs. Anyways ...

Mark


www.cnn.com...


Oops I think I posted this in the wrong place. Can someone please move it if it needs to be thanks

[Edited on 21-11-2003 by MarkosOrrealus]

[edit on 23-8-2005 by kinglizard]

I really don't know enough about this to comment too much.
................................But that never stopped me in the past

Maoris are not the native or indigenous people of New Zealand.They were not even the first people to settle in New Zealand.

A Treaty was signed,a deal brokered.OK, it took advantage of the Maoris but no more so than the USA buying Alaska off of the Russians or New Orleans of the French.What was bought was land and not,as then,unrealised natural resources.I mean imagine the Russians complaining they'd been short changed because of the Oil and Gas that no one realised was there when the deal was made
Actually of all the people I've ever met around the world Kiwis are amoung the most conscious of there obligations and responsibilities.Maoris have not helped there cause in recent times by making a number of unreasonable claims.
They've smashed up the Cup and cut down a Tree.

i always thought the maori's were the original new zealanders, much like the aussie aboriginals and the Native american indians.


you might want to provide some proof thet maoris arent the native or indiginous people of new zealand.

Just to clarify a few things..........the Maori arrived in New Zealand...and promptly killed and ate the previous inhabitants....the Mori-ori.
The Treaty of Waitangi is a real sore point in NZ (I should know..having been born and Educated in NZ) the trouble attached to this is quite simple in overview, but complex in scope. In basic terms the treaty was signed with a stone-age people who had little or no understanding of what they were giving up...having said that...if it was anyone else than other the liberal English of the 18th century...the Maori would have been slaughtered just like they had slaughtered the previous tenants.
Most of the bad sentiment of today is directed towards certain sections of the Maori "Claim infrastructure" who for reasons of financial gain have sought to interpret the treaty in a fashion that is far and away outside of its original 18th century context. The Clamists have brazenly taken advantage of the liberal politically correct apologists who will go to any lengths to right the wrongs of the past. This small step at redressing the balance in favour of common sense is in no way indicative of the situation in NZ at the moment; to cite an example of how ridiculous the situation has become...the Maori have claimed a native birth-right to all radio and microwave transmission frequencies in NZ. (I dont think TV was invented in the 18th century)....perhaps there will be some common sense rather than political correctness attached to this grievence with the fullness of time...but then again mayby not.

Originally posted by John bull 1
I really don't know enough about this to comment too much.
................................But that never stopped me in the past

...perhaps it should...it would save someone who actually knows what they are talking about, say like me, from coming in an ripping you a new ring-piece

Maoris are not the native or indigenous people of New Zealand.They were not even the first people to settle in New Zealand.

Correct...and nor have we ever claimed to be such. Seems only Europeans make that claim. We have also been unfront about the fact we were a Nomadic race...we came to NZ many many centuries ago, migrated there via the Pacific. Now...I'm gonna wait for someone to mention the Moriori, and the impact of the Maori upon them, just to see how accurate 'history' is really being taught.

A Treaty was signed,a deal brokered.OK, it took advantage of the Maoris but no more so than the USA buying Alaska off of the Russians or New Orleans of the French.

...please don't get me started on the Treaty of Waitangi...I know far too much about it to make it a fair argument. And how is "...but no more so than the USA buying Alaska off of the Russians..." in any way relevant? Is that a type of "Oh quit moaning, other people were screwed royally too"?

What was bought was land and not,as then,unrealised natural resources.I mean imagine the Russians complaining they'd been short changed because of the Oil and Gas that no one realised was there when the deal was made

The Treaty of Waitangi was not a Land Sale. The Treaty of Waitangi...if you bother to read it and study the Articles of it...actually gaurantees the Maori 'chieftainship' of the Land, it seeded 'Governance' to the Crown...though Chieftainship' was retained by Maori...Chieftainship is true ownership. Also, The Treaty of Waitangi did not cover the entire county...only those tribes that signed onboard. There were numerous tribes and tribal areas that retained their own governance by refusing to sign the Treaty. Interestingly, the greater majority of those tribes who didn't sign...and who coincedentially had large natural reasources...had a rather perturbing habit of getting invaded by the British Colonial Forces and removed from their land at the barrel of a gun *those lucky enough not to have been slaughtered of course* under the guise of hunting for 'rebels'...yeah...rebels...how can you tell a rebel? He's the brown fella who didn't sign the Treaty

Actually of all the people I've ever met around the world Kiwis are amoung the most conscious of there obligations and responsibilities.Maoris have not helped there cause in recent times by making a number of unreasonable claims.
They've smashed up the Cup and cut down a Tree.

True...NZ is one of the most 'enlightened' countries when it comes to dealing with Treaty-type grievances. Yes, you can say some Maori have not helped their cause...nor 'relations' between Maori and the Crown.

But then, neither did the near on 100 years of the Treaty being legally/Governmentally denied following the Wi Parata Vs Bishop of Wellington (1877) ruling which denied the applicability of the Treaty as a legal document...which then heralded a rampant passing of Land Bills/Acts etc etc which stripped Maori of many rights to their land and enabled the Crown to effectively confiscate land once again - just this time with the stroke of a pen rather than a pull of the trigger. Neither did the various Acts that shut down Maori land ownership, that constricted any sales or trading by Maori, that made Maori spiritual leaders and their actions criminal, that suppressed language, suppressed culture, seeded power in the greater majority of instances to the Pakeha (British in this case). Neither did the now recognised 'unjust' invasion of Maori soveriegn land in the Waikato, and the subsequent slaughtering of many many people from villages along the way who were deemed rebellious, or had the nerve to dare try to defend their own homes from an invading force (Colonial Troops). Neither did the descemation of my own tribe, who were judged to be collaberators with a group of rebels in the area *despite us actually being ENEMIES to the rebels in question*...and resulted in a large contigent of Colonial Troops rolling in and blitzing our main village without just cause, leaving hundreds dead...oh, and the nice confiscation of our land to teach us naughty darkies a lesson.

...yeah...but one of us cut down a tree...and another smashed a cup...yep, we're naughty alright...

Originally posted by spear
Just to clarify a few things..........the Maori arrived in New Zealand...and promptly killed and ate the previous inhabitants....the Mori-ori.

...thats what I was waiting for. Knowledge of where the Moriori lived, where the Maori migration fleets landed, knowledge of the Kawa (customs) behind kaitangata (cannibalism) would show this is not actually completely correct. In fact, much of the "Maori ate the Moriori like going out for a snack" is plain bullshyte is you learn about the customs of such activity.

I have read many accounts of what Europeans believed happened to the Moriori...and they are, well, misleading at best. The Moriori at the time of the Maori arrival to NZ inhabited a small region in the Lower South Island...the majority of the migration fleets landed in the uninhabited North Island. At the time the Moriori were not the only people that Maori encountered in the South Island...there were also up to 3 other distinct tribes, which were the main combatants of the reasonably peaceful Moriori people. Some say those other tribes were in fact advance 'scouting parties' of Maori. Groups who had migrated to NZ before the main 'influx' took place. The facts remain though: The Moriori were pushed of the bottom of the South Island by what is believed by some, even me, to be groups of combatant Maori...and that is indeed wrong in my eyes, as its very much the same actions/grievances we Maori whinge in the Crowns ear about. Though granted Maori are a collection of separate autonimous tribes/sub-tribe/families...so a group of brownies laying the smack on the Moriori doesn't extend the culpability of those actions across to all Maori who were present in NZ at the time.

I have also read many account of Maori eating the Moriori...some claim such wonderful things such as "Great feasts where Maori consumed their flesh seasoned with Miro berries"...studying the Kawa (customs/lore) behind cannibalism would show up the flaws in much of what you will read about cannibalism of the Moriori. Only certain people did it...or more correctly were ALLOWED to do it...it wasn't as case of the whole tribe sitting down for a quiet evening me saying "So, light meat or dark meat?" Also, there were VERY strict protocols surrounding WHICH parts could be eaten and the reasons for that...also, a person whose parts were being consumed HAD to be of high standing, respect...that was the whole point...NOT to have a 'McMoriori Happy Meal', but rather to 'gain' the powers of the person being consumed. For instance, if the 'victim' had been a respected warrior in battle, then only a piece of the biceps or quadraceps was consumed (as that was where their strength was). If the person was a Chief, then perhaps a piece of the heart (as they were the heart of the tribe). If the person was believed to have been clairvoyant, then only the eyes would be consumed. There were also VERY strict customs about how the flesh/organs was prepared, and what went with it. It was not a 'eat everything and pass the salt cheers' occasion.

The rest of your 'points' I'll start on soon enough...

[Edited on 21-11-2003 by alien]

The problem that I have with the intellectual and no doubt enlightened and thoroughly researched argument you present is simple...CONTEXT

You have taken the position as a person of the 21st century. How can you construct a coherent and relevant argument based on the interpretation of events 150yrs past. What will ever be an equitable solution?.....human nature is such that what is right for one...is an insult for others.
Someone as enlightned as yourself must surely see that the treaty culture in NZ has the potential to become most the devisive and pernicious part of living in NZ today...and although my personal opinion is one of ambivilence to the whole thing these days....are we not missing the point?....this is the 21st century...not the 18th or 19th....we are never going to be able to correct past wrongs...real, perceived, or other wise.

Originally posted by spear
The problem that I have with the intellectual and no doubt enlightened and thoroughly researched argument you present is simple...CONTEXT

You have taken the position as a person of the 21st century. How can you construct a coherent and relevant argument based on the interpretation of events 150yrs past. What will ever be an equitable solution?.....human nature is such that what is right for one...is an insult for others.
Someone as enlightned as yourself must surely see that the treaty culture in NZ has the potential to become most the devisive and pernicious part of living in NZ today...and although my personal opinion is one of ambivilence to the whole thing these days....are we not missing the point?....this is the 21st century...not the 18th or 19th....we are never going to be able to correct past wrongs...real, perceived, or other wise.

...oh, don't get me wrong here...I also believe that the Treaty has the potential to either split...or to UNIFY...which I would have hoped would have been the true reasoning behind its creation.

Also...context is a very good argument...the thing is that the context from the past DOES impact upon the future...thats also a facet of human nature, time and the passage of time. None of us were born to noone...we were born to parents, who were born to parents who were born to parents...legacy...actions of the past DO and still do resound in the present. If you take a people from their reasources, you effectively place them in an economic prison. If you constrict their ability to acquire reasources, restrict their ability to conduct business to reacquire reasources to survive on their own soon after their removal from those initial reasources then you have effectively sentenced them to some serious hardship, which is passed on to the next generation and so forth until one of the generations can pull themselves up enough to be able to compete...as we can now I would say. That does not negate the fact that before the race was even started the legs of many had be cut out from below them, so the race was never fair to begin with.

Are we ever going to be able to correct wrongs?? Yes...of course...I certainly hope so. NZ is a beautiful place with space enough for everyone...love enough for everyone. But we also have to be mindful of WHO exactly sets the standards of what is right and just...WHO exactly is the benefactor of the "We should all be one people in peace" mentality...and WHO exactly defines what 'one people' means. At present the definition of 'one' people is often a case of "We should all live as one...but only on our terms, by our definitions...basically one people...living as Pakeha" Its assimilation, NOT collaberation/unification at all.

Another point to make is the "Its 150 years old" statement I regular get thrown at me. Seems to be oblivious to the fact that major Land Confiscations by the Crown were taking place right up until 1963...they just started back in 1840 is all. People (often Pakeha) say "Its a 150 years...move on". I would reply "We've waited 150 years to get this sorted out"

...and hey...there HAS been much done so far...there has been much progress...its like any pendulum when you think about it, it swings from one extreme to the other...but each swing gets smaller...and smaler...and smaller until it settles at an equilibrium. But it DOES settle at an equilibrium. NZ is just in the process of a few more swings yet.


*Actually on topic now:
Personal feelings about the Gas/Oil Claims: Its crap...those who are currently claiming those reasources have some pretty sketchy connections to the land in question anyway. In my mind they are being downright greed and in doing so are impacting upon more legitimate Land Claims etc which are getting coloured by the actions of some tribes who seem to have more 'dollar bills and new cars' in their eyes than the 'benefit for their whole people'. For instance, there are many tribes who have just land claims, and those have been recognised by the Crown and Courts...but then you also have some rather interesting *to say the least* Claims such as inland tribes claiming a share of Fishing Rights...like WTF? Inland tribes NEVER had any fishing rights to start with...coz they were INLAND! Its damn laughable sometimes and just discredits those claims that do have legitimacy...



Peace,
ALIEN

[Edited on 21-11-2003 by alien]

So far as the economics are concerned I have to take issue with your line of reasoning. Its my firm belief that NZ is a country for all...and as such the opportunity for economic prosperity exists, this is in part qualified by seemingly disadvantaged individuals making good, but more comprehensively by the levels of literacy that now exist in NZ.
I do believe that in certain sectors of Maori communities there is a reluctance to embrace the present...and perhaps that is part of your "today echos the past" argument.....that kind of thinking I believe has relevance today only if it is used to learn and develop. The notion that as a race Maoridom has had its economic legs cut from under it only rings true to me if you subscribe to the view that resource equals wealth....this is only true in its purest sense if those resources are economically viable... in a NZ context I dont believe that this is anything more than a comfort zone.
In my view Maoridom have far more wealth and capital to gain that is attached to the family, these support structures encourage and offer oppurtunity...this I feel is the real area Maori can exploit in the years to come.
Finally Alien..Im in broad agreement with you....there are some areas of difference but in most areas...we have similar sentiments.
Let us both hope NZ can move forward rather than take a step back.

Originally posted by spear
So far as the economics are concerned I have to take issue with your line of reasoning. Its my firm belief that NZ is a country for all...and as such the opportunity for economic prosperity exists, this is in part qualified by seemingly disadvantaged individuals making good, but more comprehensively by the levels of literacy that now exist in NZ.
I do believe that in certain sectors of Maori communities there is a reluctance to embrace the present...and perhaps that is part of your "today echos the past" argument.....that kind of thinking I believe has relevance today only if it is used to learn and develop. The notion that as a race Maoridom has had its economic legs cut from under it only rings true to me if you subscribe to the view that resource equals wealth....this is only true in its purest sense if those resources are economically viable... in a NZ context I dont believe that this is anything more than a comfort zone.
In my view Maoridom have far more wealth and capital to gain that is attached to the family, these support structures encourage and offer oppurtunity...this I feel is the real area Maori can exploit in the years to come.
Finally Alien..Im in broad agreement with you....there are some areas of difference but in most areas...we have similar sentiments.
Let us both hope NZ can move forward rather than take a step back.

...and I completely accept and respect you points...they indeed have merit and provide much food for thought.

NZ can indeed be a place of prosperity for those who are willing to get off their butts and apply themselves. Which is another issue I have with my own people. Trust me...I'm one of the worst critics of the stereotypical 'lazy uneducated Maori'...for they bring us into disrepute so easily. Yes there are Maori who are poor and uneducated...but these days poverty and lack of education is not overly concerned with skin colour...there are many people of all races living here that know what its like to struggle for survival...so it angers me when Maori are so quick to play the 'Poor Me' card.

Am I playing any 'Poor Me' cards...certainly hope not. I am conscious of the past...but also conscious that the past is NOT where this country needs to be. Address the issues yes, which will take time and no doubt bring much tension yet, but always...always...keep focus on collective future progression.

Heck...my family were poor for many generations. Fished and hunt just to eat. Yet my current immediate family is certainly doing what we can to change that...for instance every member of my immediate family has a Degree, some have multiple Degrees. Have a bro who is a Chief Accountant and Financial Auditor...another bro who is a Barrister...a sister who is a Barrister and also works with WINZ sorting out their issues. Mum and Dad are retired teachers. Me...I'm a Community Mental Health Worker. None of that came easy, it doesn't for anyone regardless of background...and hell, if we can do it...anyone can. Which is why those Maori who just sit around on the dole moaning their rings-pieces off just make me wanna slap them Old saying but a true one: Sometimes we're our own worse enemy.


Thank you for sharing your viewpoints...they are much appreciated and respected.


Peace,
ALIEN

Now we've cured NZ's worrys............where next?

Originally posted by spear
Now we've cured NZ's worrys............where next?

...the pub bro...the pub...

...sitting down and having a chat over a beer probably solved more issues than any amount of legal action or arguing...

Well,Your reply seems to agree with me Alien.

I only mention the status of the Maoris not being native as a reply to the opening post.

I would say that cutting down that tree was an act of cultural vandalism.Equivolent to the Talaban blowing up those large carved Budhas.

I actually was part of a NZ America's Cup team and I shook hands with one of your Prime Ministers in San Diego.While I was in Auckland I climbed One Tree Hill and marvelled at the Country's Tollerance that that vista symbolised.

New Zealanders are a people who embrace fully the countries diverse past.Smashing the Cup just showed that some were unwilling to embrace it's diverse present.

I think really that this is what it's all about.New Zealanders working hard and moving forward together and not a few discontents continually looking for shortcuts at the expense of all Kiwis.



[Edited on 22-11-2003 by John bull 1]

From the "curious facts" pile...

The monument on One Tree Hill was set up as a memorial to the Maori - so I have been told. At the time they were expected to die out becaise of europen dieseases.

I dont know what to say....but...

Russia sold Alaska to the USA for 8 million. When oil and Gold was found in Alaska, Russia wanted more money, saying they were ripped off and demand ether more money, or the return of Alaska.

When The United States launched the so called "indian wars", they moved thousands of naitive americans by force.When they move them to one place, and find something of value, and force them to move somewhere else...and when they did, something of value was found, and once again, they were forced to move.

The Middle school I went to is actualy built on a native american buerial ground.It is realy haunted.(if you live anywhere near Speringfield,Massachusetts you heard of it.) Some say we should demolish the school and just cover it with grass, to promote peace to the souls of those native american. Other say to keep the school. As it was built in 1893, and is a important historical building to us.

I say give them the money.

...about the specific politics involved BUT knows something about ONE Maori Man, his name to some of you is Alien...

I went through a personal HELL caused by actions against one of my loved ones a couple months ago...

there was one night that I simply could NOT sleep or get it off my mind... I thought I was going to LOSE IT...

ONE "voice" came through, its heart that of a Lion, its kindness that of an Angel, its reason that of a Sage, that "voice" has a name, Alien...

IF our dear friend Alien is representitive of the Maori then NZ will rule the world one day. If the Maori are blessed with more men like Alien then the world will survive the turmoil we suffer right now.

I can NEVER say enough to extole the esteem I hold for this Warrior Savant we know, and LOVE as Alien...

PEACE...
m...

I have to agree with you there Springer, Alien is a great guy and extremely knowlegable.

I had no idea about the canniblism and the true indigenious people of NZ.
Thanks ALien. Your contributions was awesome as usual.

Mark

Ah, I was wondering if Alien was really a Maori, but I didn't want to ask. Now I know...and knowing is have the battle...or something like that.

hey alien,
mind if i ask your Iwi?
me personally,
im Ngati Tumatauenga.
but these days im living in around Poneke ways

and no,
i honestly dont think the Maori have any claim to things that they never had their own access to in the first place.
its like the Iwi up in Taupo,
i thought it was a stretch to give them ownership rights to Lake Taupo and ALL tributary rivers out to a certain point.
But you know what they tried to claim next?????
i bet you know Alien................
The airspace above the Lake!!!!!!!!!!!!
why.
are they saying they could fly back then???
they could certainly make things fly.
not people though.
and the first human in the world to make a flight into the air incorporated some of their traditional ideas into his designs.
but they never had any way of using, getting themselves into or taking advantage in any way of the airspace above Lake Taupo.
yet claim, claim, claim away.
like Mike said,
there used to be a few thousand Maori's in New Zealand.
then they started claiming stuff back an now there is 10's of thousands!!
dont get me wrong though.
the Maori were wronged terribly.
and people who are treated that way deserve to be looked after.
but enough is enough.
you cant claim something you never had.
sure they would have if the "man covered with lice" hadnt turned up but hey.
life aint fair.
by the way Alien,
is it true that Pakeha does actually mean "man covered with lice"?
i know it doesnt mean "white man"
because you remember that old song,
"ma is white, whero is red..............................."
ahhhh i forgety the rest but you know what i mean.
if pakeha meant white man would "ma" have to be in there somewhere?????????