Why the church is like it is

Ive been telling you guys forever in here that satan
as aaliteral plan conducted by masons and communist to destroy the church
not from the outside but literally infiltrate and destroy the attitude of the church from
within.

Communist and masons have been entering seminaries for a long time now to modernize the church
with the world. masonry and communist have a big problem with the church. They have done these plans
so that the church may have a new basis in faith and would not be a threat to them.

You think this is impossible?

let me give you some qoutes.

In the book Ecumenism written in 1908 (masonic)

"" The goal in no longer the desruction of the church, but rather to
make (use) of it by infiltrating it ""


On 1844 a leader of an italian secret society called "nibius"
wrote a letter to another highly placed mason.

"" Now then, in order to ensure a pope in the required proportions, we
must first of all prepare a generation wothy of the kingdom
of which we dream, let the clergy move to and under your banner (masonic) always
believing they are advancing under the apostilic key. cast your net like Simon
Bar Jonas, spread it to the bottom of sacristies, (seminaries), and
convents. you will have finished a revolution dressed in the
(popes) triple crown and cape, carrying the cross and the flag, aa revolution that
will only need a small stimulis to set fire to the four
corners of the earth ""


free mason Eliph levi said in 1862

"" A day will come when the pope, inspired by the holy spirit will
declare that all the excommunications are lifted and all the anathemas
are retracted, when all christians will be united with the church, when
the jews and the moslems will be called back to her, she will permit all sects
to approach her by degrees and will embrace all mandkind in the communion
of her love and prayers. Then protestants will no longer exist, against what
will they be able to protest? the sovereign pontiff will then be truley (king) of the
religious (world) and he will do whatever he wishes with all of the nations
of the world ""


bella dodd a former communist who at her death converted to catholicism stated.

As a communist agent she encouraged young radicals to (enter) catholic seminaries

She also stated...

"" In the 1930s, we put eleven hundred men into the (preisthood) in order to
destroy the church from within ""

(12) years before vatican ll she said.....

"" In the future you will not recognize the church because the changes will be so drastic ""



I will not post all of the communist and masons own words on this one topic.

Im just giving you a feel for when i say that the devil has a literal plan to destroy the church from infiltration.

Also about the ecommunicates. the pope is considering lifting all of the excommunications on all protestants including martin luther.


To image sick people who would infiltrate gods church just to modernize it is sick. people love this church
and those who commit these acts care nothing for god nor the church of god whom the people of god attend.

This is why these preist you see on tv have horrible morality, this is why preist and bishops
practice satanism, this is why attendance is down in the church, this is why the "pope" does nothing
about the preist.

Its all one in the same plan by those who seek to demolish god.

peace.

LoL Truth, I'll not vouch for any of those "masonic" quotes until you provide irrefutable proof...

...besides most of them such as what was supposedly said in 1862 are just expressing the general masonic view of religious tollerance, yet you try to twist it in to some satanic plot.

"ecumenism," which is defined as "the organized attempt to bring about the cooperation and unity of all believers in Christ."

That's the definition of ecumenism, doesn't seem too shabby to me.

I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them. [Romans 16:17]

Oh my god Truth...I think you aren't following the scriptures...you should go to hell.

And I can't find any reference to any book called "Ecumenism" nor anything like it being of Masonic origin....how bout giving us better resources...you are too vague.

Sincerely,
no signature

Awww damn you have been to that

www.trosch.org...

site haven't you?

That site has not been very well known for its fairness in well...anything. In fact, they haven't been well known for good research either...

...I think next time Truth...you should do your own research..and not let those bozos do it for you...

Sincerely,
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Let me give you some other quotes from this horribly backwards site...which as a side note, is also a "profiteering" site. I guess their cause isn't worth being pious?

"Groups and organizations that have separated from freemasonry, yet retain much of the structure, are in strong opposition to freemasonry. Freemasonry opposes these organizations and forbids association with them (Mormons, etc.). "

That is an utter lie, I know plenty of Mormon masons.

"Freemasonry has now infiltrated the highest levels of the Church, including bishops and cardinals, and has not been effectively opposed by recent popes who at least seem to have been, or are sympathetic with freemasonry."

Where's the proof? I say...that the bible was written by monkeys 28,000 years ago to the day as of yesterday...and that super intelligent orangutans came to jesus, gave it to him, and then threatend with a gun to pretend he was a girl and finger his nose...then when they left he decided he would profit from it and try and become GOD, but he fell short and only became SON of god.

"The homosexual agenda, now supported by many bishops and cardinals, is seen as a means of undermining the faith of Catholics. Freemasons support and promote this agenda."

Yeah...I voted to NOT allow gays to marry in the state of Nevada....we also passed that law....I think the masons would have done something about it if they were pro homos.

"They promote democracy in place of republicanism, the original legal form of government developed by the founding fathers of the U.S.A. The concept is for the government � controlled by freemasons � to dominate the population rather than having a government restricted as to its actions as intended by the American Constitution."

Hmm masonry was HIGHLY influential in the founding of this nation...and its principals are summed up IN the constitution...as well as our nation's "federalism" being based on the same system of government that governs the lodges.

"No organization that is a separation from freemasonry or a mimic thereof should be seen as anything but humanistic and completely self-serving."

Oh good god the INQUISITIONS!!!! I BET THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS GOING TO TRY AND PAWN THAT OFF ON US MASONS TOO!!!!

" It is not known when the prefix "free" was added, nor is there agreement on its significance."

And yet another lie by our friends at trosch

Well I'm not writting any more, I assume this post is now VERY long...

Sincerely,
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Sincerely,
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freemason, what are you trying to do?

Ive known that bishops in the vatican have said that other
bishops are practicing satanism.

I have many more freemason qoutes on infiltrating the church.

And i did "not" get this info from trosh site. I don't even know what that is.

You think this is all a lie because christ is nobody to you. he is the lord and founded a church, and satan
will stop at nothing to bring this church down. even prophecies from
saints predict the infiltration of the churches hierarchy.

Pope pius said " the smoke of satan has entered into the heart of the vatican "

many other saints including fatima and lasalett talk about the devils infiltration into tradition.

freemason, you really have to understand the doctrines to know how much the church has been changed.

See we now have a pope who has no problem with false religions and promotes that all religions worship God. he has
become a manifest heretic.

Of course "you" and "others" will say, Thats great! A pope who is tolerant and thinks all religions
are true, but to the "few" like me who know it is the only church of christ know what these plans consist of.

This will lead to us being martred for defending our faith that the "few" of us know to be true. See you can't believe christ and not
his church. While the majority will love this inter faith connection you see happening today.

i would of thought this would be great to two years ago, but ive learned that god has revealed to
me the true church and he has revealed to me is son jesus through
miracles.

This pope is a major heretic and has led astray many catholics. If he were true to tradition in stating
the only church and only way for salvation he would be hated and true to the faith.


Also freemason this has been happening from the communist to, not just the masons.

You said....

"" i believe that monkeys wrote the bible ""

of course. But im lying?

peace.

[Edited on 10-11-2002 by Truth]

Truth

I agree with you to the point that Satan is working very hard at infiltrating the church from the inside.

One christian said once, and I quote, "the problem is not the church being in the world, but the world being in the church". In other words, all the things of the world that God hates are creeping into the church, and the believers of each congregation do not even know it. Except like you said, those who are deliberately doing it.

I have not heard about Freemasons or corrupt people infiltrating the church so I cannot comment on that.

Truth, we are both christians and I'm sure we both want to do Gods will and seek peace with all men. I'm also sure that we would get along fine if we knew eachother. But my problem is this, and I do say sorry to you, but I just cannot bring myself to believe that the Roman catholic doctrine is the same doctrine that Jesus gave to his apostles, and what the apostles taught to the early churches.


Mr Freemason

I am curious, the posts that you sent to this thread, could they not have been put into one post or are you just trying to get your post count up. considering you wrote these one after the other in a space of 30 mins.


But I do take my hat off to you though, you have done over 300 posts in a matter of a couple of weeks.

By the way would you be so kind as to tell me what F.N.O.R.D.S. means please.
Which is it to do with Freemansonry or the Illuminati?

Thanks

Originally posted by Truth let me give you some qoutes.

How about providing your sources rather than merely quoting from them?

As FM pointed out, you may have merely been taken in by a different version of the "Protocols of Zion", which are known & proven to be fakeries. If you provide your sources, we can investigate their truth for ourselves...Or do you have such little respect for the intelligence of people that you presume we'll follow blindly?

Yes, I do believe that the Churches have been infiltrated with unholy elements...But I'd like to see your sources before I try to link Freemasons (or anyone else for that matter) as being *specific people or groups* that's doing it.

I'll not take any quotes from anybody as being the truth until I can investigate for myself...So how about it? Sources, please?


[Edited on 10-11-2002 by MidnightDStroyer]

Well my "multiple" posting on this page was so rampant because at first it was only going to be the first post...then I actually FOUND dead on the very resource Truth used, then I actually read it and decided to post again to knock off all those crappy quotes....and I didn't feel like editing my first post because it doesn't count to my overall post count

Hmm and about those Fnords (at least the only fnords I've heard of) I've heard of them but dismissed them as yet another persons blame of the effects of society, on us freemasons.

Sincerely,
no signature

Originally posted by Truth
Pope pius said " the smoke of satan has entered into the heart of the vatican "

I know EXACTLY what has changed in the church...and "satan" entered the church as soon as it lost its strangle hold on its dictatorship of Europe....As soon as Brittain went protestant they knew they lost the world as well....they had to blame someone....and neither Satan nor Freemasons can defend themselves, because Satan doesn't speak, and Freemasons won't publically debate against religious fanatics.

I don't see why you don't see it....go back to your time line, you'll see that most of your "satan has entered the vatican" quotes correspond to some religious uprising, such as the 30 years war in the 1600s....Martin Luther...the French Revolutions...they church needs scapegoats and lambs....hence why in the 1700s I do believe it was...or maybe even the 1800s about 200,000 people were killed MURDERED because of ties to Wiccanism by the Church.

Sincerely,
no signature

Truth, could you tell me what the Catholic church's current position on Mary, Jesus' mother, is?

Growing up, I went to catholic school and we were taught that Mary held much power and influence, even being revered as an intercessor for us to God. At the same time, we learned that Jesus is the Son of God and read a few bible stories about him, but that was about it.

Years later, I was looking back and found some old religion class stuff. I noticed how much attention was given to Mary, all the prayers and devotions practically worshipping her. I also noticed a photo of a Mary statue, her figure placed at the top of the earth, and Mary wearing a crown, like she was a queen of earth or something. Then I remembered the church I went to had this altar on the side, with a large mosaic of the blessed mother and prayers and flowers decorating it.

All this really bothered me. Yes, Mary had an important role in Jesus' life,and she was much blessed by God! But by building altars to her, are we turning her into an idol? Portraying her as a queen, equalling her position with Jesus, who is a king? Praying to her that she will put in a good word or request for us to God, when in fact it is Jesus who fulfilled the role as an intercessor to God for us?

I don't know where the church stands here, or if it is left up to the individual parishes. What do you think? Does this influence the position of the church today?

Originally posted by Truth
Ive known that bishops in the vatican have said that other bishops are practicing satanism.

Hmmm...I don't hear *Freemasons* mentioned here.

Originally posted by Truth...and satan will stop at nothing to bring this church down.

I don't hear *Freemasons* here either...

Originally posted by Truth
I have many more freemason qoutes on infiltrating the church.

What quotes? Who said them? Sources please.

Originally posted by Truthmany other saints including fatima and lasalett talk about the devils infiltration into tradition.

Don't hear *Freemasons* mentioned here either...

Originally posted by Truth Also freemason this has been happening from the communist to, not just the masons.

I didn't hear *Communists* mentioned in any of the above either...

Originally posted by Trutheven prophecies from
saints predict the infiltration of the churches hierarchy.

Just to play a bit, I ask you to quote those prophecies that specifically mention Freemasons *by name*...And while you're at it, how about providing your sources to that info (If you can).

Originally posted by Truthfreemason, you really have to understand the doctrines to know how much the church has been changed.

I think I've been pointing out all along how much the doctrines *have* been changed...And even confirmed by others who actually *do the research*.

Originally posted by Truth
See we now have a pope who has no problem with false religions and promotes that all religions worship God. he has become a manifest heretic.

By who's *opinion*? Yours? Or did you simply happen to trust the word of the wrong person who stated their own opinion? What actually gives you the *right* & *authority* to condemn the highest leader in your own Church? You seem to make a lot of profound, broadly-sweeping statements, but you have no proof & provide no sources to (I guestimate 90%+) whatever you say.

Originally posted by Truth This pope is a major heretic and has led astray many catholics. If he were true to tradition in stating the only church and only way for salvation he would be hated and true to the faith.

Let's see, the definition of "tradition": noun; The handing down of generation to generation of opinions & practices; The belief or practice thus passed on; Custom.
And yet how much has your "tradition" changed through the centuries?...It doesn't fit the definition of "tradition" any more, does it?
When the day comes that you fall off your "high horse", there's going to be a *very* loud thump.

Originally posted by stewards One christian said once, and I quote, "the problem is not the church being in the world, but the world being in the church". In other words, all the things of the world that God hates are creeping into the church, and the believers of each congregation do not even know it. Except like you said, those who are deliberately doing it.

So Truth, why do you continue to indicate only a *few* specific sources as being the causes of the problems in the Church...It's the *whole world* (Well, *most* of it, really). It's been this way with *every* religion, not just yours. Why do you still cling to the "true religion" when you can't even honestly agree that it has *remained* true to the scriptures without *changing* them through history? This is why so many people disregard a lot of what you try to tell them...It's because of your faith, which clings to a religion more than to God Himself.

Originally posted by Carebear
Growing up, I went to catholic school and we were taught that Mary held much power and influence, even being revered as an intercessor for us to God.

That's the main problem with *Organized* Religions: They *want* you to believe that each individual needs to have an intermediary between you & God...The *only* intermediary you need is Jesus Christ. You see, the Church would lose a lot of power, influence & money if they told you the truth...So they don't tell you the truth.


[Edited on 14-11-2002 by MidnightDStroyer]

let me state something.

God "is' the religion i 'cling" on to.

he created it by the prophets.

also you wrote...

"" what gives you the write to judge the highest person in your
religion ""

The doctrines do. also im not judging him unless he becomes a manifest
heretic. he goes against and says stuff against his own doctrines.

he goes against the traditional teachings of the church.

he goes against what the former popes and saints have said.

One of our doctrines states very clearly. That if one has become a manifest heretic you
should "not" follow him but condemn his actions.

thats what former popes have taught.

every pope since the beggining until now has vowed to never change tradition. he has not
made that vow. And the only pope to do so.

hes a heretic of what his own church teaches and has always taught.

One saaint said very clear.

"" even if those faithfull to tradition are few in number, they are the
true church of christ ""

hes promotes the novus ordo mass and wishes that we do not hold to our traditional mass.

he gives communion out in the novus order mass.

until you know the churches original teachings i suggest you do not think im judging him unfairly. He is a manifest heretic unless he repents of it.

And he probably is the false prophet in the apoc in chapter 13.


carebare...

catholics do not worship mary, and whoever does let me just say, is a major heretic. carebare our
church teaches "no" such thing as the worship of mary, never has never will.

If catholics choose to worship mary they will be excommunicated.

but she "is" an intercessor to "christ" not the father.

only christ is the intercessor between him and the father.

what mary does since she becomes our mother, and we become christs brother, is
she prays to christ for us if we ask.

I ask My dad and mom to pray for me, is it wrong for mary to??

not at all, same with the saints.

they pray for us and give their prayers to jesus.

remember at the foot of the cross jesus said.

"" Women behold thy son, and son behold thy mother ""

we are mary's spiritual children who god gives to us. And we become jesus broithers and sisters
through the church.

noone i know whos catholic would ever ask mary to give them salvation. we ask her to pray for us.

even the hail mary says...

"" holy mary mother of god "pray" for us siners now and at the hour of our
death ""

thats asking her to pray for us sinners.

a prayer from mary means a whole lot, and jesus heres the prayers of the holy ones, especially mary.


Our catechism teaches no such thing on worshipping mary.

midnight, ill have to look all around the internet for these books to these qoutes. give me some time.

peace.

It is interesting however how Joseph gets the boot thought, does Jesus even speak of him after his "ressurection"?

Sincerely,
no signature

"See we now have a pope who has no problem with false religions and
promotes that all religions worship God. he has become a manifest
heretic." and
"This pope is a major heretic and has led astray many catholics. If
he were true to tradition in stating the only church and only way for
salvation he would be hated and true to the faith."

Why is the pope a heretic truth? You say he promotes other religons.
He doesn't, he shows tolerance to them. He, unlike some in the past,
hasn't led a crusade or trial or inquisition on the different religons
and killing millions of people. So, hasn't killed millions of people
means he's a heretic? And, as above, isn't hated so not a heretic,

He is a good man, has helped many, but he's a heretic because he
doesn't condemn people to hell. Truth, why do you hate him so? He
shows tolerance,kindness, and understanding to others. And to you that
makes him a heretic. You fool, he isn't a heretic, or the antichrist as
you have called him. But a man who tries to do good. But, still human,
screws up. Like going to Africa and tells them to have more kids.

Anyways, truth, why hate a man who has tried to do only good?

Freemason can you give us a list of some of the names which were in the past members of the Group you belong to?

Specifically from the point of view of American History??

Truth

Hello again, how are you today.

I would just like to make a quick point concerning what I know about mary.

I have been taught that she was only chosen by God to bare the Lord Jesus.
So I agree with you to the point that she should not be worshipped. But I cannot agree that she is an intercessor between us and christ. Mary was a mortal woman created just the same as you or I. So what would make her higher than anyone else. She was a sinner in Gods sight like the rest of us was'nt she?.
The Bible teaches nothing about Mary being an intercessor for us in anyway. The Bible Does say that we have only one intercessor between God and man. This is christ only. You say that Mary is to be a mother to us all, But we know that God is our father. So if Mary is our mother and God our father, I dread to think what the relationship people would think is between God and Mary if they believed what you were telling them.

So I cannot believe we are to pray to Mary because the Bible gives no indication to do so.

Mary wasn't a virgin. Well, not what virgin means today.

Back then virgin meant young female. Or, Joeseph in jail for statutary rape, and Mary a teenage pregnancy drop out.

Sorry, but virgin meant something different back then, but it did. Like how punk use to mean homosexual prostitute. Now it means some moron listening to music until his ears bleed and his heart explodes.

Originally posted by Truth
The doctrines do. also im not judging him unless he becomes a manifest heretic. he goes against and says stuff against his own doctrines.

So God has given you a qualifier to make jusdgments now?...Only *if* he becomes a manifest heretic? That's the qualifier you have to make judgements?

Originally posted by Truthevery pope since the beggining until now has vowed to never change tradition. he has not made that vow. And the only pope to do so.

And so those Popes who have taken the vow & *changed the tradition anyway* are NOT manifest heretics?...The very same heretics that you have personally denounced in other posts are not heretics anymore *because* they broke the very same vow that you deride the current Pope for not taking?

Originally posted by Truthhes a heretic of what his own church teaches and has always taught.

But yet you deny what has already been *proven*...That the Church hasn't *always* taught the *same* tenants throughout its own history. Tenants have changed over time...So how could they possibly be teaching the same tenants if they've continually been changing those tenats?

Originally posted by Truthuntil you know the churches original teachings i suggest you do not think im judging him unfairly. He is a manifest heretic unless he repents of it.

Oh, but I *do* know the Churches *original* teachings...I've done the research, you obviously haven't.
I will patiently await your sources. They do not all *have* to be URL links...Our local library is pretty good & has several branches throughout the city. If they don't have a particular reference, they can at least direct me to one.

I'm a devout Babtist, so understand, what I say is just what I believe to be true.
We have Ministers that preach and teach the word of GOD. For the most part, at least for my part, these are men, not women.
They are self appointed, called by God, not man.
We don't pray to these men, nor do we give them any high positions. Their just men, like ourselves, who have choosen to represent themselves as Gods spokesmen. Some are true beliverers, some are not. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure who's who.
Now I've said that to say this.
In the old Testiment their were men appointed to burn the sacrafices or offerings of men to God to forgive sins. These men were held in high esteem because they were intermedaries between GOD and man.
When Christ came along and died for our sins, he became the intermedary, so these burners of offerings were no longer needed.
It was these very men who were afraid they would loose there exsaulted positions that started the catholic church. They became the Popes, Bishops, etc. so man would still have to pray to them instead of directly to Christ, as it should be.
If that wasn't enough, they required that one pray to men who were proclaimed to be saints by the church, and to women, such as Mary. Other than being the mother of Christ, she was rarely mentioned in the Bible. And not only that, they have you praying to idols. The Bible has quite a bit to say about that.
Now I'm not saying that what I believe is any more right than what you believe, just so long as we both believe in christ the son and God the father.
What I do have problems with is men worshiping other men and praying to other men and confessing sins to other men. This is just another way for a man to control other men.
All men or sinner and come short of the glory of God, so how can a man represent himself as Godly. By wearing fancy robes, and crowns? I don't think so.
Just my opinion.

Bruno

don't just let this be your opinion. You are right in what you say. It is in the word of God that we do not worship any other than the Triune God. So if we believe and repeat what is written, we can't go wrong.