An Advanced Civilization on Earth Thousands Of Years Ago??

Originally posted by Marduk
theres no evidence otherwise
so why bother pretending there is because you want it to be that way
that won't make it true !!

and that is the heart of the matter... lack of evidence isnt evidence in itself.

there is zero proof of ancient civilizations with modern technology except for OUR interpretations of stories written down 1000's of years after the events...

Geez look at "Atlantis"... ONE mention of it EVER in it ONE book in HISTORY and it becomes truth with "sun powered death rays" and so on...

lack of evidence isnt evidence in itself.

thats exactly what it is

Geez look at "Atlantis"... ONE mention of it EVER in it ONE book in HISTORY and it becomes truth with "sun powered death rays" and so on...

thats not a very good example on your part
from that statement i can easily deduce that you haven't read the two dialogues by plato that contain the only relevant description of Atlantis
if you had you'd know that at no time in any of it does it mention any advanced technology
and if you check you'll find that nobody accepts the two dialogues of plato as truth of anything except a moral tale with the possible exception of alternative historians and psuedo nutters

Originally posted by Marduk
thats not a very good example on your part
from that statement i can easily deduce that you haven't read the two dialogues by plato that contain the only relevant description of Atlantis
if you had you'd know that at no time in any of it does it mention any advanced technology
and if you check you'll find that nobody accepts the two dialogues of plato as truth of anything except a moral tale with the possible exception of alternative historians and psuedo nutters

2 dialogues by ONE person... i should know better than to be vague around you.

I think youre agreeing with me for the last part... but i cant tell cause my sarcasm-o-meter is broken.

[edit on 23-12-2006 by donk_316]

Originally posted by Marduk
civilisations of what
Civilisation is not an evolutionary expectation
its a freak of nature
intelligence and self awareness coupled with socialisation is an evolutionary advantage in our case and our case alone in the history of this planet.

theres no evidence otherwise
so why bother pretending there is because you want it to be that way
that won't make it true !!

have you been watching that Voyager episode with the dinosaurs ?

ROFL

I guess you didn't bother reading the link.....the reason there is no evidence is because like the link stated it would vanish after 200,000 years.

You can jump up and down all you want but if all evidence of a civilization vanishes after 200,000 years as the New Scientist article stated then the fact remains we at this time would have no idea how many other advanced civilizations came before ours.

And preciously because of that fact we cannot discount the possibility of prior advanced civilizations existing in the distant past on this planet.





[edit on 23-12-2006 by etshrtslr]

I guess you didn't bother reading the link.....the reason there is no evidence is because like the link stated it would vanish after 200,000 years.

I read it when it first came out several months ago

the new scientist article doesnt take everything into account
we are constantly finding the remains of animals meals from anything up to multiple millions of years ago
we never found anything that had been pre wrapped

you might also want to factor in the fact that any new civilisation arising needs resources
and ours alone has practically used up all there was
when we first started mining for minerals we didn't come across any seams that had been entirely mined out before we got there you know
if there had been a civilisation to our level it would be obvious
because the entire planet would be a wasteland
there just arent enough resources to go round
or are you suggesting maybe that they had a technology that made energy out of nothing at all

and really
the fossil record on sentient beings is very complete
theres only been the one
it took us several million years to get here and that was by accident
study a little on anthropology and you'll see how unlikely any other sentient race evolving on this planet really is

still leaves you the aliens though
www.moviesoundclips.net...
thats why they are so popular with pseudohistorians
because unlikely as they are they are the only alternative to advanced technology on this planet other than our own

Originally posted by donk_316
I think youre agreeing with me for the last part... but i cant tell cause my sarcasm-o-meter is broken

yup I am, agreeing with you
some people take things literally with very little supporting evidence
if you like i can send you the two dialogues that Plato wrote so you can read all the credible details for yourself. that way in future if you hear about anything that isn't in them you'll know its bullpats
they are called Timaeus and Critias
I have them both on ms word doc
if anyone else wants a copy just u2u me your e mail address and I'd be happy to let you have them

Originally posted by Marduk
civilisations of what
Civilisation is not an evolutionary expectation
its a freak of nature
...

says who? you might believe that evolution is just a matter of trial and error, but if less complex systems tend to favor certain configurations (think crystals, think alloys, graphite and diamond) why categorically exlude the possibility that life has its favorites, too?

Originally posted by Marduk
you failed to mention that your extract is currently being used by the ooparts site to prove that the earth was built in seven days in 4004bce by some guy called God
s8int.com... (halfway down the page)

so, some dubious source said something about it. big deal, stories spun out of a few tidbits can be found anywhere, who does not have an agenda these days?

history is riddled with people who believed they knew it all, only to be invalidated once they died and were therefore no longer able to control research.

Max Planck

A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it

did you know that biology textbooks once contained beautiful illustrations of little men sitting in the heads of sperm cells? or that cavemen's paintings were all considered a hoax until some were found beneath sintered limestone?

if green, fused glass is produced by natural processes how come we don't see them in action? meteor impacts tend to eject matter, so they really cannot cover large areas with pure (95+%Sio2) glass, can they? saying it was a tunguska type event is fallacious, because tunguska itself is disputed, for the simple reason that it's a post-hoc explanation, without known precedent and without confirmation.


[edit on 23-12-2006 by Long Lance]

the new scientist article doesn't take everything into account
we are constantly finding the remains of animals meals from anything up to multiple millions of years ago

Provide one of your links and make it something from outside the ice age.

we never found anything that had been pre wrapped

Why would we if it vanishes in 200,000 years?

you might also want to factor in the fact that any new civilisation arising needs resources
and ours alone has practically used up all there was
when we first started mining for minerals we didn't come across any seams that had been entirely mined out before we got there you know
if there had been a civilisation to our level it would be obvious
because the entire planet would be a wasteland
there just aren't enough resources to go round

Provide some proof of that.
Civilizations of the past did not have to rival ours in size and scope... also plate tectonics and other natural disasters have completely changed the topography of the planet and in the process moved resources around.

And what resources are you saying are limited and not capable of regenerating? Oil? ...Iron ore? gold? silver?

Everything except for oil would still be here to be reused again and it is even debatable if oil does not replenish itself....but for the sake of argument I will say it does not....that does not mean they could not have used some other renewable resource as energy.

and really the fossil record on sentient beings is very complete theres only been the one it took us several million years to get here and that was by accident study a little on anthropology and you'll see how unlikely any other sentient race evolving on this planet really is

Exactly how old is the fossil record? Does it go back billions of years? And again with plate tectonics, earthquakes and other natural disasters do we really know what happened on this planet a billion or so years ago?

Or are you claiming its all been figured out and there is nothing left to learn or be discovered?

And please provide some proof of that!!! Something other than you opinion!!!

[edit on 23-12-2006 by etshrtslr]

says who? you might believe that evolution is just a matter of trial and error, but if less complex systems tend to favor certain configurations (think crystals, think alloys, graphite and diamond) why categorically exlude the possibility that life has its favorites, too?

civilisation is not a crystal or an alloy
you're making a straw man argument so that you can demolish it

history is riddled with people who believed they knew it all, only to be invalidated once they died and were therefore no longer able to control research.

that may have been true in the past but its an outdated concept thesedays
new research is now built on old research that is arrived at with facts made from empricial data
Max Planck died 60 years ago and things have since moved on

did you know that biology textbooks once contained beautiful illustrations of little men sitting in the heads of sperm cells

yes at the start of the 18th century
is all your information this up to date ?

if green, fused glass is produced by natural processes how come we don't see them in action? meteor impacts tend to eject matter, so they really cannot cover large areas with pure (95+%Sio2) glass, can they? saying it was a tunguska type event is fallacious, because tunguska itself is disputed, for the simple reason that it's a post-hoc explanation, without known precedent and without confirmation.

Meteor impacts produced the green desert glass
that has been proven several times over in this thread already
i suggest you go back and read the scientific analysis of the glass that was posted earlier in this thread along with the impact site of the meteorite that caused it
the glass was not pure

Libyan Desert Glass is a natural glass composed of nearly pure silica (98 wt %). The formation of this glass, because of its unusual composition has for long been considered as mysterious. Chemical analyses show that the glass is locally enriched in meteoritic elements, with typical chondritic proportions. The only explanation for these observations is that Libyan Desert Glass results from a meteorite impact on a silica-rich target.

(Abstract, "Silica 96", Robert Rocchia, CEA-CNRS, Fr.)

www.saharamet.com...

Provide one of your links and make it something from outside the ice age.

www.nau.edu...
www.taipeitimes.com...
www.sciencedaily.com...
www.smh.com.au...

Why would we if it vanishes in 200,000 years?

so once again you are claiming that the fact that there is no evidence somehow makes your claim stronger
heads up buddy it doesnt
it just makes your claim more desperate

Civilizations of the past did not have to rival ours in size and scope... also plate tectonics and other natural disasters have completely changed the topography of the planet and in the process moved resources around.

And what resources are you saying are limited and not capable of regenerating? Oil? ...Iron ore? gold? silver?

Everything except for oil would still be here to be reused again and it is even debatable if oil does not replenish itself....but for the sake of argument I will say it does not....that does not mean they could not have used some other renewable resource as energy.

there is no evidence of any civilisation in the past on this planet
plate tectonics have not renewed the surface world
do you understand what plate tectonics actually is ?
it certainly doesnt sound like it
Iron ore and gold are not renewable resources as once they have been mined from the ground they are gone forever
are you suggesting that your imaginery lost civilisation mined metals and then when it had finished changed them back into ore again and replanted them in the ground so that nobody would noitice
laughable
your claim that they used some other renewable source of energy is interesting
what source are you saying that they utilised ?
oh and provide a link for that please

Exactly how old is the fossil record? Does it go back billions of years

www.ucmp.berkeley.edu...

The oldest known fossils, in fact, are cyanobacteria from Archaean rocks of western Australia, dated 3.5 billion years old.

And again with plate tectonics, earthquakes and other natural disasters do we really know what happened on this planet a billion or so years ago?

www.scotese.com...

Or are you claiming its all been figured out and there is nothing left to learn or be discovered?

It is well known that the odds of any civilisation of a different species having existed on this planet before us are virtually impossible to counter
www.jb.man.ac.uk...
the drake equation works out the probability of life comparable to ours existing in the entire galaxy
currently its estimated that there are ten other civilisations out there
and that is in the entire galaxy
learn to walk before you can run
you're overstretching your imagination
if you don't start with the facts and work a theory out from there then you don't have a theory
you just have your imagination

According to Dr. Carl Sagan in his book 'Broca's Brain: Reflections on the Romance of Science', he says that Immanuel Velikovsky (the author of Earth in Upheaval) in his book Worlds in Collision, notes that the idea of four ancient ages terminated by catastrophe is common to Indian as well as to Western sacred writing.

The ancient Indian texts, Bhagavad Gita and the Vedas, tell of widely divergent numbers of such ages, but more interesting, the duration of the ages between major catastrophes is specified as billions of years!!

On the eve of the "Mahabharata War" our ancestors believed that their knowledge was in danger of being lost. They could have written it down, but writings could be destroyed. It was therefore, memorized and passed on orally, probably resulting in the ‘poetic’ descriptions I have mentioned earlier in this thread.

For a quick glimpse at what unsung surprises may lie in the Vedas, let us consider these renditions from the Yajur-veda and Atharva-veda, for instance.
" O disciple, a student in the science of government, sail in oceans in steamers, fly in the air in airplanes, know God the creator through the Vedas, control thy breath through yoga, through astronomy know the functions of day and night, know all the Vedas, Rig, Yajur, Sama and Atharva, by means of their constituent parts.

" Through astronomy, geography, and geology, go thou to all the different countries of the world under the sun." (Yajur-veda 6.21).

"O royal skilled engineer, construct sea-boats, propelled on water by our experts, and airplanes, moving and flying upward, after the clouds that reside in the mid-region, that fly as the boats move on the sea, that fly high over and below the watery clouds. Be thou, thereby, prosperous in this world created by the Omnipresent God, and flier in both air and lightning." (Yajur-veda 10.19).

And here is the icing on the cake. Atomic energy!! If they could describe the process, isn’t it possible an atomic bomb could have been made and used?

" The atomic energy fissions the ninety-nine elements, covering its path by the bombardments of neutrons without let or hindrance. Desirous of stalking the head, ie. The chief part of the swift power, hidden in the mass of molecular adjustments of the elements, this atomic energy approaches it in the very act of fissioning it by the above-noted bombardment. Herein, verily the scientists know the similar hidden striking force of the rays of the sun working in the orbit of the moon."
(Atharva-veda 20.41.1-3).

Can this be imagination? My take is that this advanced knowledge has a strong extra terrestrial influence. Perhaps knowledge passed down to the sages (scientists?) thousands of years ago by an extra terrestrial race, who themselves were involved in a great war in antiquity.

See my thread here...

(source: Searching for Vedic India - By Devamitra Swami p. 155 - 157).

More..


P.S.

Dr. Oppenheimer, of The Manhattan Project, who was familiar with ancient Sanskrit literature, was giving a lecture at Rochester University. During the question and answer period a student asked a question to which Oppenheimer gave a strangely qualified answer:

Student: Was the bomb exploded at Alamogordo during the Manhattan Project the first one to be detonated?

Dr. Oppenheimer: "Well -- yes. In modern times, of course."



[edit on 24-12-2006 by mikesingh]

Originally posted by etshrtslr
I guess you didn't bother reading the link.....the reason there is no evidence is because like the link stated it would vanish after 200,000 years.

Not true, actually (and surprisingly.) There are known homesites of homo habilis that are 1.5 million years ago -- and we're talking about cave dwellings with material in them. Ancient roads can be spotted and recovered by satellite. Megalithic (stone age) sites are being found by satellite imagery.

And these are all very primitive civilizations and settlements where people with fire technology who knew how to kill and skin lived. Nothing more sophisticated than that.

200,000 years isn't long enough for traces to vanish if they were there. One of the things that is special about high tech civilizations is that they have complex products that don't biodegrade well. Furthermore, complex civilizations don't appear "kerpoof" one day and go "kerpoof" two years later.

Living on the land makes lots of land use patterns.

There are none indicating any civilizations competing with animals and primitive people on the planet.

Originally posted by Marduk

says who? you might believe that evolution is just a matter of trial and error, but if less complex systems tend to favor certain configurations (think crystals, think alloys, graphite and diamond) why categorically exlude the possibility that life has its favorites, too?

civilisation is not a crystal or an alloy
you're making a straw man argument so that you can demolish it

call it whatever you want, your sweeping statements don't need to be true, i used a primitive analogy - of course they are not the same, they're not supposed to be.

Max Planck died 60 years ago and things have since moved on

yes, we're special

NOT!

it's true because you said so, right?

yes at the start of the 18th century
is all your information this up to date ?

deliberate, but not very convincing, is it?


case in point :the orthodoxy has been wrong in the past, they never admitted it, take plate tectonics, archeology, cosmology (should i like my old post on comets ?) -you name it, they are wrong, kill off any dissent or drive it underground and at some point usurp it and reap the rewards of fame by raping history. it's not new, Wegener (see plate tectonics) died half a century ago a broken man.

but i guess we're living at the 'end of history' now, right, it's all different, nothing can be used as an example save what the orthodoxy prescribes.

Meteor impacts produced the green desert glass
that has been proven several times over in this thread already
i suggest you go back and read the scientific analysis of the glass that was posted earlier in this thread along with the impact site of the meteorite that caused it
the glass was not pure

Libyan Desert Glass is a natural glass composed of nearly pure silica (98 wt %). The formation of this glass, because of its unusual composition has for long been considered as mysterious. Chemical analyses show that the glass is locally enriched in meteoritic elements, with typical chondritic proportions. The only explanation for these observations is that Libyan Desert Glass results from a meteorite impact on a silica-rich target.

(Abstract, "Silica 96", Robert Rocchia, CEA-CNRS, Fr.)

www.saharamet.com...

your source says 'nearly pure' and a line before that you said it wasn't pure, in court i'd probably lose out for such careless use of language

i mean, really, is that all you can come up with?

soapbox science at its finest, tbh, first they say 'uh oh, it's very pure' then they bring in the inevitable asteriod (freshly usurped from catastrophism i might add) then say ' from impact on a silica rich target ' an euphemism, of course, because that ominous targert has to be even purer than the final product (the green glass), rather big to accomodate a (missing btw) crater and most importantly, deep. most types of rock do come in layers, but that's just side note.

the question here is why people make claims such as these to explain sq miles covered with glass, without ever verifiying if their 'silica-rich' almost pure giant quartz block they so carelessly introduced ever existed or where.

but i guess it's the logical thing to do when you desperately need to c.y.a.

[edit on 24-12-2006 by Long Lance]

As for absolute evidence, it undoubtedly is hard to come by. But then it could be based on deductions, inferences and logical conclusions from the vivid descriptions of advanced technology in ancient texts.

Have look at this. Is it all imagination? As for me, I have an open mind.

Only a few years ago, the Chinese discovered some Sanskrit documents in Lhasa, Tibet and sent them to the University of Chandrigarh, India, to be translated. Dr. Ruth Reyna of the University said recently that the documents contain directions for building interstellar spaceships!

Their method of propulsion, she said, was "anti- gravitational" and was based upon a system analogous to that of "laghima," the unknown power of the ego existing in man's physiological makeup, "a centrifugal force strong enough to counteract all gravitational pull."

Dr. Reyna said that on board these machines, which were called "Astras" by the text, the ancient Indians could have sent a detachment of men onto any planet, according to the document, which is thought to be thousands of years old.

The manuscripts were also said to reveal the secret of "antima"; "the cap of invisibility" and "garima"; "how to become as heavy as a mountain of lead."Naturally, Indian scientists did not take the texts very seriously, but then became more positive about the value of them when the Chinese announced that they were including certain parts of the data for study in their spaceprogram!

This was one of the first instances of a government admitting to be researching anti-gravity. The manuscripts did not say definitely that interplanetary travel was evermade but did mention, of all things, a planned trip to the Moon, though it is not clear whether this trip was actually carried out.

Here's more incredible stuff!!

Originally posted by whatukno
Ok one thing, Not all of us have been posting to ATS sence the dawn of its time. we look into something and think that it is a brand new idea to us but everyone else here has hammered it to death. I know everything has been done under the sun but heres the catch 22 in all of this...

you go and research the old threads and post a new reply and get hammered for bumping an old thread.

so what do you do?

Everyone,

Whatukno has a valid point here.

Please let's not "hammer" anyone for bumping an old thread. I've consistently recommended that people (newbies, mostly) should do searches on ATS of the subjects they're interested in before posting.

If a poster does this and still feels he has something new to bring to the discussion, he shouldn't be made to feel stupid for putting in his two cents in an old thread.

Good for you whatukno. Excellent point.

Harte

Kind of counterproductive to tell people to do a search of a thread if hey wanna talk about something, and then scream at them for posting in it, now isn't it? I concur with Harte on this, kudos for posting in an old thread.

TheBorg

s8int.com...

Originally posted by pai mei
s8int.com...

An excellent link!!

I wonder what Marduk and Harte have to say to this..

Gurkha,
flying a swift and powerful vimana
hurled a single projectile
Charged with all the power of the Universe.
An incandescent column of smoke and flame
As bright as the thousand suns
Rose in all its splendour...
a perpendicular explosion
with its billowing smoke clouds...
...the cloud of smoke
rising after its first explosion
formed into expanding round circles
like the opening of giant parasols...
..it was an unknown weapon,
An iron thunderbolt,
A gigantic messenger of death,
Which reduced to ashes
The entire race of the Vrishnis and the Andhakas.
...The corpses were so burned
As to be unrecognizable.
The hair and nails fell out;
Pottery broke without apparent cause,
And the birds turned white.
After a few hours
All foodstuffs were infected...
...to escape from this fire
The soldiers threw themselves in streams
To wash themselves and their equipment.

Ancient verses from the Mahabharata: (6500 B.C.?)

It describes exactly the effects of a nuclear explosion!! Imagination? I think not. And this is what we are taught to do after a nuclear explosion....

...to escape from this fire
The soldiers threw themselves in streams
To wash themselves and their equipment.

Wow! Like excerpts from a handbook on Nuclear Warfare!!

Cheers!



[edit on 14-3-2007 by mikesingh]

mike this is what the third time you've posted that hevaily edited text
when you get around to reading the original which has been posted to you before instead of continuing along your heavily agendised nuclear belief system then maybe we will have something to talk about
until then i'll leave you with your imagination
www.abovetopsecret.com...
just in case you've forgotten
heres where we put donw this fantasy of yours before

Where is that original ? This is the original and true story

www.hindunet.org...

More here

www.google.ro...

They also found the physical evidence of nuclear blast - a layer of glass in one zone of the desert and high radiation

They also found the physical evidence of nuclear blast - a layer of glass in one zone of the desert and high radiation

don't get me started on libyan desert glass
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagggggggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

I believe I'm going to have to side with Marduk here on this one. I did some looking into this a while back, when I thought it was a nuclear blast as well, and turned up with the same results. So, I think this one can rest easy, as it's nothing manmade anyway.

See Marduk, there's at least SOMETHING that we agree on!!

Best wishes,
TheBorg