Question for Americans

Can Americans say when things started to go tits up in the US, there seemed to be a time when the country as a whole was far more benevolent, its people more free and happy with their lot. Then something happened that changed all that, does anyone have any ideas when, my guess is around the time of the JFK assasination, Vietnam followed soon after and it seems a downward spiral since then.

I'm not trying to insult Americans but you must know something has happened and have an idea when. Its like the actors in a film have been replaced halfway through it, its still the same film but it dose not feel right.

Who are these gansters who do not have America and its people at heart, was this all planned decades ago to eventually lead up to the NAO, a bit like the Common Market for Europeans. Who are the movers and shakers who are controlling all this, does anyone really know.

Take this the right way .... we weren't benevolent, we were blind.

THANK GOD for what happened with Nixon. Seriously. Thank God! It opened our eyes to what was going on in government and in the press.

Everyone thought the government was sparkling pure.
Everyone looked at Walter Cronkite like he was the ultimate truth source.

Now we know better. It was a bitter pill to swallow, but thank God we took it. We now know better to keep an eye on our government and we know better than to trust talking-heads on TV (Cronkite is radical left and biased!)

BTW - you said 'T.U.' ... Are you a Navy brat??

What are you talking about?

Are you talking about the economy? Social and racial oppression?

If you're talking about the economy it's boomed tremendously since the world war I - II era, the 'benevolent' era which I'm sure you're refering to.

If you're talking about class and social behavior, we are at the epitome of citizen rights in this country. Since the civil movement of the 60s minorities have gained more equal footing than ever in this country.

I fail to see what you're getting at.

If you're refering to the 'Pleasentville' perception of life that existed in the middle of the 20th century as benevolent then yes I suppose that time is over. But that could be that White America isn't as common as it was.

Times change. I don't know, aside from astronomical housing prices and inflation, why people aren't anymore happier now than they were before the 70s.

Perhaps you can explain your point more thoroughly.

If you're talking about Free Trade then I will agree with you there.

Free Trade is destroying our country. We're even outsourcing medical coverage to India now!


As for the powers that be that control this nation and the world, they will be dealt with soon enough by the coming generations.

it seems you have already made up your mind.

your just looking for conformation.

what changed?
the press did.

everything has always been the same. the press has just changed how they report it.

Originally posted by magicmushroom
Then something happened that changed all that, does anyone have any ideas when, my guess is around the time of the JFK assasination, Vietnam followed soon after and it seems a downward spiral since then.

....
Vietnam didn't follow Kennedy. Eisenhower, seeing that the french colonialists were falling apart and that the communists were stepping in, started minimal, advisory, US invovlement in the french colony of Vietnam.

Kennedy escalated it to all out war.

Remember, this is the same Kennedy who risked war in europe with the soviets by flying over and dropping materials into East Berlin. THe same kennedy who risked global thermonuclear war over a tiny meaningless island called cuba. And it was during Kennedy's administration that the pentagon came up with Operation Northwoods. Kennedy was the one pushing the Bay of Pigs Invasion, and who used the CIA to conduct mulitple assasination attempts on Castro.



I would say that nothing has changed. This is the same america that it allways was. Its impressive how people look back to the somewhat distant, somewhat foggily recollected past and glorify it into a golden age.

Long before our modern problems with terrorists, we were obsessed over the internationalists communists and soviets. Before that, the radical anarchists and labour unions. Before we were freaking out over mexican immigrants, we were freaking out over german and italian and irish immigrants

I mean, this is the same country that created a constitution and bill of rights, insisting that all men were equal and shoudl be free, and yet was still involved in slavery decades after it dropped out of sight in europe and the uk.

Things haven't 'gotten worse' in the US. Things are how they've allways been.

And as far as globalisation, its only today recovering to the levels it was reaching before the world wars really knocked it back.

I think the American consciencness changed when "planned obsolescence" was accepted as the norm. We became a disposable society where current fashion is the only thing of value.

This mind set defines America. "Tits Up" is a very appropiate description of the current moral and cultural and political place America finds itself in.

However this is the most creative country on the planet and we will eventually change for the better. America is still in the adolescent stage of its development. Old Glory, Long may she Wave!!

[edit on 18-12-2006 by whaaa]

Hi Grey, I'm talking about the whole issue. Nygdan to say America has not changed is not true, The terror attacks and other events have allowed the Goverment to bring in draconian legislation, this is not for those outside of America but those who dwell within. The fact that the legislation has not been used wholesale does not mean it wont happen. It s there for a reason, a reason that I am sure will be realised very soon. Goverments dont do these things for nothing.

Up to the end of ww2 America was seen as a fighter for democracy now it is seen as an aggresor and a tyrant. That is a change in Foreign policy, a change that has caused its own people to question that policy. Many think that the country is more at risk because of these actions so that is a change is it not.

Originally posted by magicmushroom
Hi Grey, I'm talking about the whole issue. Nygdan to say America has not changed is not true, The terror attacks and other events have allowed the Goverment to bring in draconian legislation, this is not for those outside of America but those who dwell within. The fact that the legislation has not been used wholesale does not mean it wont happen. It s there for a reason, a reason that I am sure will be realised very soon. Goverments dont do these things for nothing.

Up to the end of ww2 America was seen as a fighter for democracy now it is seen as an aggresor and a tyrant. That is a change in Foreign policy, a change that has caused its own people to question that policy. Many think that the country is more at risk because of these actions so that is a change is it not.

like i thought, your OP was not realy a question. well....maybe a loaded question.

Well, my dad, God bles him, always said that things started a downward moral decline in the 60s. He felt like the 60s were the ruination of the youth of the United States. However, he pinned it on the influx of outside influences like the Beatles and such.

I am at a loss trying to figure out what else you are referring to.

[edit on 18-12-2006 by SpeakerofTruth]

Hi JSR, its not really a loaded question as such, you have to allow non Americans a certain amount of lee way because we are not in the situation, one can say there has been no change and everything is fine or you may discuss personal events etc. that may say otherwise.

Many outside of America think it has changed, well has it or is it all just bad press?

you misunderstand me.

i said it never changed.
i never said it has always been good.

Originally posted by magicmushroom
Nygdan to say America has not changed is not true, The terror attacks and other events have allowed the Goverment to bring in draconian legislation,

Like what? Patriot Act? Whats draconian about Patriot Act? It lets cops come in and perform a warrant search, without telling you? Big whoop.

When the founders themselves were dealing with war against the british, they passed the Alien and Sedition Acts. That makes Patriot look like a libertarian manifesto.

The fact that the legislation has not been used wholesale does not mean it wont happen.

They're allways using the Patriot Act provisions.

It s there for a reason, a reason that I am sure will be realised very soon. Goverments dont do these things for nothing.

The reason for the Patriot act is to have a way to deal with this small, covert, un-directed terror cells.

Up to the end of ww2 America was seen as a fighter for democracy now it is seen as an aggresor and a tyrant.

All that means is that our propaganda was better back then.
And no one, but NO ONE, wants america to be a 'fighter for democracy'. We invaded europe, broke with isolationism, to overthrow a national socialist undemocratic regime, to fight even the idea of fascism.
We fought the soviets and the ideal of communism.
Now we are fighting the terrorists and the ideal of islamism.
The government simply did a better job of packaging the 'War Against Fascism" than it did for the War Against Communism, and both far better than the War against Terrorism.

That is a change in Foreign policy,

Overthrowing the baathists in iraq and replacing them with a moderately popular (ie, democratically elected) and relatively secular government is in KEEPING with the older foreign policies.

Many think that the country is more at risk because of these actions so that is a change is it not.

We're definitly more at risk now. Now instead of the baathists and the islamists counteracting each other, we're going to have an allied Iraq-Iran terrorist state thats going to have nuclear technology. They're almost certainly going to nuke our cities too.

If anything has changed, its been this. Ever since WWII, the american public has lost its ability to stomach war, and lost any interest in the militant support of democracy.
We left Vietnam, not because the troops were defeated on the battlefeild, but because the public soured on it, didn't consider communism a threat, and want to return to isolationism. We're leaving iraq, not because the insurgents have defeated any american forces on the battlefield, but because the public just doesn't care if there is an islamist regime in baghdad.

Kofi Annan remarked in his exit speech that the US used ot be a force for democracy, but now wasn't.
But thats bollcoks. We're doing the same thing in iraq that we did in nazi germany. We're treating the islamists the same way we treated the soviets. The problem is, that we haven't done it as successfully. And when you don't win, you dont' get to 'write the history books', as they say.



The public has become stupid. If anything, thats the problem these days.
But, I suspect, that the public in america has allways been stupid, and its only that, nowadays, our government isn't doing a good job of convincing them of what needs to be done.

Many outside of America think it has changed, well has it or is it all just bad press?

Of course its just bad press. Reality is an exercise in group consensus. In the past, we were really good at convincing people we were doing whats right and whats good for them. Now, we're not so good. We're not doing anything different, its just the propaganda that is different.

JSR
i said it never changed.
i never said it has always been good.

Indeed. And its not the job of a nation to be 'good'. A government is supposed to enact the self-interests of its people, agianst the interests of other nations and their peoples, should it come to that.
[edit on 18-12-2006 by Nygdan]

[edit on 18-12-2006 by Nygdan]

It's very interesting how people outside of America think we are in some sort of moral & economic downfall.

Nothing fundamental about America has changed. By being the only superpower we have become everyones scapegoat for every fault in this world. It is truely amazing. That is the change you are seeing. It is the constant media bombardment of every wrong in this world somehow attributed to the U.S.

You should realize that all you really know about the current U.S condition comes from the media. That information is all cherry picked. It makes for better news to sensationalize and report the worst.

I think the Cold War turned the US into a country that did the "lesser evils" to defeat the "greater evil". Now the bill is coming due and everyone is bagging on the US for committing all of the "lesser evils". The US sacrificed itself not just for WWII, but for the WWIII that was never fought. Maybe letting a few Soviet nukes fly would of gotten more respect from those that live today.

The US is far from perfect and I'm not claiming we always do right, but most Americans want to do right. A lot of people donate money, and "volunteer time" to charities in the US is the highest it has ever been.

The problem is that the media flat out ignores the cultures outside of the US anymore. I live right next to Canada and Mexico and I hardly get any information on them. How is the average American going to care about the rest of the world if they aren't even aware what's going on in the world.

You want to fix the US? STOP INSULTING IT! We're tired of it. We're tired of being told that we're the ones to blame but also the only ones that can "fix" things. We're like a parent that hands out the money to the teenagers and then they insult us for not being cool, then the teenage world goes and gets itself in a mess and asks for help again. Sometimes the parent is wrong...we're not perfect, but good lord let some of our mistakes go.

Americans don't appreciate being asked for help and then insulted...how about some praise and thank yous...how about some encouragement to a country that wants to help the world out? I'm no rah rah American guy, and can see a lot of faults in America's selfish culture. I see better ideas in Europe and the rest of the world that we are ignoring, it's sad. Americans are on a treadmilll, we are extreme competitors and most are fighting to stay middle class...we have lost a little perspective on life.

It makes it hard to be as charitable when you have lost perspective, are overworked, out of touch with the rest of the world, and are insulted by the world. The world needs to recognize what the US has done and help it as much as it wants to help the world. I don't need a world parade or oh boo hoo tears for the US, what I'd like is some honest friendly advice and understanding that we put our butt on the line and stood in front of and behind the nuclear gun...and the world is still around. That's a lot of responsibility.

Ask not what the US can do for you, but what you can do for the US...I'm sure a little praise and understanding from the rest of the world would help encourage us Americans to open up a little more.

We are told that We have freedom, yet We are owned by Everything that We own. Our money imprisons Us, Our hatred imprisons Us, Our government's greed for power imprisons Us, the very dividing of the lands into names, counties, states, countries, and continents imprisons Us. Freedom? We have no freedom, We work for a power that hides cowardly behind the scenes, sometimes showing its face only in the intent of deceiving Us into thinking its Not them. Things have all ways Been downhill, there is yet a Being on this planet that has experienced true freedom. If a baby is born in a prison and told it is free its whole life, then what is it to believe?

We are free beyond money and We are free beyond possessions; We do Not need money and possessions to acquire a feeling of freedom. Soon enough We will all begin to feel the stress of Our greed and misdirection.

We worry so much about the faces pulling the strings behind the scene that We forget We are the puppets Being pulled and that We have a mind to think with, and this mind is all ways only thinking about what is behind the scenes instead of the entire scene which We create with Our minds

Instead of We the people Being united, We the people accepted, "We the people Being ruled by factions"; We the puppets. Do We honestly need presidents? Do we honestly need to be ruled?

No, We are free

[edit on 18-12-2006 by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal]

When I was on patrol in the city, I met so many wonderful people who came here to visit. They were amazed at how so many different people could function and get around with a minimum of courtesy. When I travel as I will be doing for the holidays, I know I will meet people in this country that do not reflect the media stereotype of fat lazy Americans.
I have been working on my alternative energies and found that a whole lot of us wish to enjoy the old style of living off the land and in harmony with earth and neighbors.

On September 11th, I saw the compassion of a people and the horror of the hatred of our ways. I saw and heard many things. I did my best to understand what it all means.

I talked to an Officer that was in Greece during the attacks, he said that the people in one cafe thought it was a movie or staged to sway foreign opinion. I have traveled to many countries in my time in the US Army. and found a general likeness for our people and an uneasy fealing that some how I was bring change to their way of life.

I know many countries are not always in agreement with our governments policies.

I feel that it is our freedom, that puts leaders of regions that are not Free in conflict when you let a people do whatever legal activities freely that removes their control from them.

So many people wish to be in charge, but the real power is in its people to decide.

What would happen when we pull out of World politics?

Will you still have a positive outlook when China, the Middle East, Russia decide your fate?

GOD BLESS AMERICA! DUDE!

GOD BLESS ENGLAND! RIGHT OHH!

GOD BLESS CANADA! EAH!

GOD BLESS THE FREE EUROPEAN COUNTRIES THAT WE FREED FROM EVIL!

GOD BLESS THOSE IN ASIA THAT WE SAVED!

OH AND DONT FORGET GOD BLESS THOSE AUSTRALIANS DOWN UNDER!

Strangely I again find myself agreeing with Nygdan (it's my medication!). The US hasn't changed, merely the public face of their policy.

Prior to Wilson the US was extremely isolationist limiting itself to fratricidal conflicts or campaigns in Mexico, Cuba, The Phillipines etc.

Wilson (a brilliant man) changed all that; he saw that by subverting the European empires and re-inventing imperialism into an economic domination model rather than colonialism, the US could develop a successful c20th model of empire.

The US fought WW1 and WW2 in the furtherance of these aims. Once this is understood the US actions via the Marshall plan, the pressure on European nations to relinquish their empires, IMF, World Bank, the UN, support for UK membership of the EU etc etc make sense. Divide and conquer.

The idea that the US fought and bled for any other aims is just spin I'm afraid. It's no coincidence that since WW2 coca cola has destroyed many countries' indiginous soft drinks industries, McDonalds has decimated indiginous fast foods, etc etc etc

The Cold war was just the continuation of this policy with a different stated aim.

Ultimately it paid off, the USSR fell apart and the US was left in the position of world domination envisaged by Wilson. The aim of its current policies to hang onto that position - it's accomplishing this militarily, economically and via technology.

The EU (originally planned by Napolean and then Hitler as a means of Woirld-domination) was finally implememted as an attempt at self-defence against this US domination.

Whether it will be a US empire of centuries or will decline and fall like they all do remains to be seen.


BTW Eisenhower used to sanction mass bomber intrusions of Soviet airspace in the 50's - flexing muscles and taking the world to the brink of destruction didn't start with JFK. IIRC Churchill advocated a pre-emptive nuclear strike on the USSR in 1947.

BTW2 - Nygdan nice to see you using some good old Anglo-Saxon - 'bollocks'!! Champion, I'm reet proud of thee tha knows



[edit on 18/12/2006 by Strangerous]

Originally posted by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal
We are told that We have freedom, yet We are owned by Everything that We own. Our money imprisons Us, Our hatred imprisons Us, Our government's greed for power imprisons Us, the very dividing of the lands into names, counties, states, countries, and continents imprisons Us. Freedom? We have no freedom, We work for a power that hides cowardly behind the scenes, sometimes showing its face only in the intent of deceiving Us into thinking its Not them. Things have all ways Been downhill, there is yet a Being on this planet that has experienced true freedom. If a baby is born in a prison and told it is free its whole life, then what is it to believe?

We are free beyond money and We are free beyond possessions; We do Not need money and possessions to acquire a feeling of freedom. Soon enough We will all begin to feel the stress of Our greed and misdirection.

We worry so much about the faces pulling the strings behind the scene that We forget We are the puppets Being pulled and that We have a mind to think with, and this mind is all ways only thinking about what is behind the scenes instead of the entire scene which We create with Our minds

Instead of We the people Being united, We the people accepted, "We the people Being ruled by factions"; We the puppets. Do We honestly need presidents? Do we honestly need to be ruled?

No, We are free

[edit on 18-12-2006 by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal]

I agree with you 100% LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal

Originally posted by Atomic
You want to fix the US? STOP INSULTING IT! We're tired of it. We're tired of being told that we're the ones to blame but also the only ones that can "fix" things. We're like a parent that hands out the money to the teenagers and then they insult us for not being cool, then the teenage world goes and gets itself in a mess and asks for help again. Sometimes the parent is wrong...we're not perfect, but good lord let some of our mistakes go.

Herein lies the problem. Its actually the other way round. The US is actually the teenager, and you stopped listening to the older and potentially wiser heads around the world because of your level of involvement in WW2. (I'm not saying that involvement wasn't appreciated by the way.)

The attitude since then has been that the "US knows best" and that has been percieved as arrogance, awkwardness and in some cases downright stupid by a lot of people - particularly during the recent actions in Iraq.

The other thing the US has suffered from is the media explosion around the world of the internet age insofar as that some of the worst excesses of your society have gained a voice.

Its a loudmouthed, arrogant voice, that believes the US is best, everyone else is retarded and no one else knows what they are talking about. Don't believe me? - then read this board in detail - or visit any message board on the net. In any subject with a contrary opinion to what is percieved as "right" by people in the US gets shot down, maligned and ripped to pieces. Other countries are ridiculed mercilessly.

Its all out there - hell people may not even realise they are doing it - but it is. People read that kind of stuff and think "stupid Americans" and it goes from there. And as the US has had the greatest number of internet users per capita for many a year its got to the stage where your reputation is preceeding you.

The events of Sept 11th were horrific. The whole world stood in sympathy with the US and then the media ran riot and the US ego did too. Suddenly there was a "war on terror" - like that stuff hadn't been happening elsewhere for years. Sure, the US hadn't experienced anything like that but alot of other nations had. Maybe the numbers weren't as large in one single hit but the fact was that alot of people in Europe looked at the reaction and thought "hypocrites - they never kicked up a fuss about us and now they want us to support them". One of my particular bones of contention is the IRA - and the fact that large chunks of their funding came from organisations in the USA. I escaped both the Warrington and Manchester city centre bombings within minutes to spare, other people died, and tens of millions of pounds of damage was done. And yet there was no "war on terror" then. I didn't see B-52's over Dublin. It hadn't happened to you yet. It didn't matter. People in Europe had been living with terrorism and dealing with it since before WW2. Ever since Sept 11th your business has been rammed down everyones throats.

You say "stop insulting America", but it would be nice to see some kind of reciprocal action, a bit of understanding of other cultures. Less stereotyping, less downright arrogance.

To summarise - what happened to the US to change it so much is that it was bought out of its cocoon and into the real world that the rest of us were living in, by WW2 to some extents, but since then by the net, by the media explosion across the globe and by the tragic events of Sept 11th. And now its suffering because people only ever remember the worst aspects of a society - I know I have to catch myself alot these days because I KNOW that deep down most Americans are good people. Sadly, the loudmouths, the morons and those who are uneducated and who have vile opinions get noticed and - just like you villify the worst Islamic extremists because they get all the attention - your society is judged on it.