The Holocaust...did it happen? What's the evidence either way?

Originally posted by forestlady
I have known many people who either survived the camps, or had friends/relatives who did. I've also seen a survivor with the number tattooed on his arm. I've heard too many survivor stories to think it didn't happen. It DID happen and there were 6 million Jews killed. The ovens were going 24/7 and held lots of people at one time. IBM supplied the gas for the ovens.

Why is it so difficult to believe it happened? Humans are capable of absolute cruelty, why wouldn't this have happened?

IBM provided the gas? Are you talking about the computer company IBM or what? Maybe U could explain more. Now what Ive heard is that IBM got sued because they allegedy provided naziz with computers. And that was concluded by saying that naziz could not have calculated how many prisoners they kiled in camps. If this is the same IBM then this is perfect example how rumors and misinformation spreads false information.
IBM sellin gas? huh...


[edit on 14-12-2006 by finallianstallion]

Originally posted by dave_54
The millions of graves never existed. And of course the giant international Zionist conspiracy planted thousands of false memories into the minds of the survivors.

Well, at least for what I posted, no one is saying that the Zionist faked it...those that care to read the rabbis link will see they were responsible for the Jews of Europes death.
NOw that is an interesting slant, surprised that it seems to be taking people awhile to get the point...it spells it out pretty nicely.

Peace

dAlen

Most people who shout "anti-semetism" and "holocaust denier" at others are shouting at people who don't question whether or not it happened. What they are questioning is who was responsible and what the back story to this horror is. Too many people are speaking with their hearts. Its true that this was a horrible thing. Its true that it happened. But what were the circumstances surrounding it? Many people other than the Nazis are to blame. This doesn't make anyone innocent, but it does show that there were many other guilty parties.

[edit on 14-12-2006 by yourrolemodel]

ok..so people have tattoos? Do they say Hitler? How do you know the Zionists arent responsible? They are a sneaky group, and i think theyre responsible for 9-11. Hitler might have been a MAJOR leader..but did he really provoke it? After all American bussiness companies did do bussiness with hitler..but the Holocaust is defineD AS the genocide of a minority group.

Originally posted by benevolent tyrant
Incidentally, I firmly believe that there was indeed an active program to collect, enslave and, ultimately, eradicate the Jewish people by the Nazis. I could hardly believe anything else from what I "know" and from the Holocaust survivors that I have personally known.

some the concentration camps still stand in germany today. if you deny the holocost, you dont care about the 6 million that died. how nice of you.
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Trimmed big quote

[edit on 14/12/06 by masqua]

I think that The Iranian Holocaust Conference is bull. How could you deny the exsistance of something that killed so many people, and screwed up so many lifes. Im just so pissed about this I can't stand it.

I group up in Germany 1969-1977 as a military brat. One of the first field trips we (Rhein Main Jr High) was to Dachau. Even today, I remember what I saw. The many photographs, the sleeping quarters, the gas chambers, and the large mounds where the bodies were swept or thrown in for burial.

I can't imagine anyone disputing the holocaust as there are too many visual confirmations of the atrocities. If you add the accounts from the survivors and former nazi soldiers, it is undeniable.

HMMM well i see no one has read the article..the guy is not denying the MILLIONS of people that died..hes denying the exaggeration and the gas chambers. But you know..Iran does have a conflict w/ Isreal, and those surrounding countries believe that the Jews have not been victimized and have not suffered..why would they want to believe this? Because those countries despise Isreal..Isreal is the bad guy to them, and they think Germany shouldnt recieve all of the blame.

www.iht.com...

That question misses the point. The Iranian president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, portrays conference participants like David Duke, the former Louisiana Klan leader, and Robert Faurisson of France, who has devoted his life to trying to prove that the Nazi gas chambers are a myth, as honest men who have been silenced by their governments.

[edit on 14-12-2006 by SAGEX89]

dAlen - the link you posted might put some of the responsibility for what happened onto the Zionists, but ultimately, the Nazis still killed several million Jews.

My impression is that the concentration camps had a secondary purpose, that of cheap labour. Inmates were mostly worked (and starved) to death, and the gassings started towards the end of the war, when the Nazis started to get a bit panicky at the thought they might lose before the job was done. There is also plenty of evidence of mobile gas chambers, which were basically trucks with the exhaust ducted into a large rear cabin.

It happened all right. And I'm in no position to quibble about the numbers, which are, in light of the sheer dreadfulness of the crime, almost irrelevant.

What annoys me is the appropriation of the word "Holocaust", and the use of the historical facts to justify more wrongdoing over half a century later. Jewish organisations will not allow the word "holocaust" to be used to describe the Turkish genocide of the Armenians, which was just as brutal and, if memory serves, proportionately killed a greater percentage of the race concerned.

I also find it appalling that "holocaust deniers" should be locked up. I know that it's a touchy subject in Germany and Austria, but there should be free and open debate about the topic. I have confidence that the facts are on the side of the Jewish people, and they are more than capable of "seeing off" deniers. I mean, a lot of the pro-Israel lobby don't let facts bother them in the slightest when it comes to the Palestinian issue, and they convince enough people they're right on that score: they should be invincible when the facts are actually on their side!

Originally posted by SR
Are they're any documented written orders for
extermination. Are there Aerial reconnaissance photographs of the concentration camps show no smoke and flames belching from the crematoria and pyres as alleged.

I believe it happened but not to the extent claimed i will of course explain:


I would like to make my first stab at this subject with this link. I will post more information later.

www.zundelsite.org...

The First Forensic
Examination of Auschwitz (June 1989), wrote, "While significant quantities of cyanide compounds were found in the small
de-lousing facilities at Auschwitz . . . no significant trace whatsoever was found in the buildings labeled as the camp's
infamous gas chambers . . . moreover, the design and construction of those buildings are unfeasible for mass gassings.

there actaully are some aerial photographs that are on the web, a good one is in this wikipedia article (about halfway down the page):

Wikipedia article

and heres the picture:

Auschwitz Aerial photo

I believe it happened, no doubt about that but now that i have seen the evidence against it, I'm questioning whodunnit now.

note: im sorry if you were being sarcastic about asking for those photos, hard to tell on forums

[edit on 14/12/0606 by Korsyn01]

My papaw was over there too fighting under Patton. He said they liberated one of the camps. Don't know which one it was but I do remember him saying that the soldiers gave their food to the hungry little german kids. It wasn't only the jews who were starving during the war. The whole infrastructure of the country was destroyed. How can you expect a country fighting a losing war who can't even feed its own people to send food to a prison camp. Granted, it happened but who knows the details. It is fading into history as the people involved die out.

In answer to the poster who thought IBM 'provided the gas'...

IBM and the Holocaust

Only after Jews were identified -- a massive and complex task that Hitler wanted done immediately -- could they be targeted for efficient asset confiscation, ghettoization, deportation, enslaved labor, and, ultimately, annihilation. It was a cross-tabulation and organizational challenge so monumental, it called for a computer. Of course, in the 1930s no computer existed.

But IBM's Hollerith punch card technology did exist. Aided by the company's custom-designed and constantly updated Hollerith systems, Hitler was able to automate his persecution of the Jews. Historians have always been amazed at the speed and accuracy with which the Nazis were able to identify and locate European Jewry. Until now, the pieces of this puzzle have never been fully assembled. The fact is, IBM technology was used to organize nearly everything in Germany and then Nazi Europe, from the identification of the Jews in censuses, registrations, and ancestral tracing programs to the running of railroads and organizing of concentration camp slave labor.

It's an interesting book.

Then, of course, there's all the Bush family connections with the Nazi regime through Brown Brothers Harriman. The rather sanitized Wiki entry gives only the barest idea. A much more detailed exegesis if all the connections`(between Prescott Bush, Averell Harriman, and Fritz Thyssen, Hitler's main backer) is available here.

Here is what i think happened. In 1933 the Jews declared war on Germany. At that point the Nazi's started putting gold stars on Jewish people. Many many Jews were rounded up and put in concentration camps. As allied bombing destroyed German cities, many many Jews starved to death in those concentration camps.
It doesn't matter what the number of dead Jews was it was a "Holocaust". However, even if 6 million Jews died, The Germans killed 20+ million Russians. So it was like a "Holocaust" X3 for the Russians. The Russians don't seem to have a chip on their shoulder over this whole ordeal.

Was there a Holocaust, yes, there were many Holocausts in WWII. It was the bloodiest period this planet has ever seen that we know of.

Some people choose to use the "Holocaust" in certain ways. For example, If you ever say one bad thing to a Jew, you are "anti-semetic". When being anti-semetic actually means you hate all Semites. I'm afraid that is a group much bigger than just the Jews.

My history is a little fuzzy on this topic.
Why, exactly, did the German Nazis want to mass kill the Jews?

Originally posted by Melbourne_Militia
Anyway, The Jewish population within Germany wanted to have their own piece of land in the Holy Lands and approached the Brit's who up to that point were not in a very good way in the war and told them, that they will approach the jewish lobby in the US and get them to lobby the US Government to enter the war on the side of the british, in return the jews want their own state of Israel.

Funny, the same thing happened in WW1 with the
Balfour Declaration where the Brits were in need of American help on the west front and promised the land of Palestine to the jews, represented by Baron Walter Rothschild, in exchange for US war lobby.

I think nobody can deny the extinction of millions of jews in WW2, but the way it
(the 'holocaust') has been keeping it's momentum seems so strange when we live in a world that still relates so closely to cruelties like genocide and war, where the Israel government itself commits the crime of putting Palestines in large prison camps and extreme live conditions.
I have seen impressive museums about the holocaust and think they serve a very good purpose, but I have never stumbled over a museum like the holocaust museum in Berlin dedicated to all the gypsies that were killed, as a mather of fact, the gypsies are still being seen as a lesser kind of human in most east-Europe countries, being heavily discriminated, but nobody bothers.

History and current events clearly show that wars are started by a simple sacrifice of a few thousand lives of your own people, in order to get the public opinion in war modus. Wars are in a way very profitable for a few (for example Prescot Bush and Bush Sr through the Carlyle group) and these few don't seem to bother on which side dies.
In this context it isn't unthinkable that the zionist leaders made such a sacrifice through the holocaust, resulting in Israel.
It seems too nasty to be true, but the more I google, the nastier this world becomes..

Originally posted by Nemithesis
My history is a little fuzzy on this topic.
Why, exactly, did the German Nazis want to mass kill the Jews?

@ Nemithesis
Ok--try because in their bid to produce an Aryan Super-race, the powers that be in the Third Reich felt that Jews, Gypsies, the Disabled, and the Mentally challenged, were "lesser types" and were toxic to the gene-pool of such a Super-race.

@ the Thread

I can see that many of you are young--very young. I am not, for what it's worth. I am having a real problem getting my head around the fact that there still are those in the World who would deny the Holocaust. There is only one reason anyone would entertain such horrible thoughts of denying the Truth of it--and that is to permit it's current and eventual continuance. Oh, and you can believe that "it" continues, even as we speak. (Darfur, Equatorial Africa, Bosnia, North Africa, Asia, the Middle East, and the United States.) Understand something; Holocaust = Genocide--and a rose by any other name--- my point being that the mentality, thought, and impetus, still exists. These days we call it, simply, Racism--and as long as that mentality exists, then the motive for a future Holocaust exists along with it.

Originally posted by Ed Littlefox

Originally posted by Nemithesis
My history is a little fuzzy on this topic.
Why, exactly, did the German Nazis want to mass kill the Jews?

@ Nemithesis
Ok--try because in their bid to produce an Aryan Super-race, the powers that be in the Third Reich felt that Jews, Gypsies, the Disabled, and the Mentally challenged, were "lesser types" and were toxic to the gene-pool of such a Super-race.

While I agree that it was the Third Reich's agenda to bottle up all the people that they considered inferior or non Aryan material, I strongly question that exterminating all those people was even a feasible agenda if it was an agenda at all.

Adolph Hitler himself was not Aryan material, in fact he was 1/4 Jewish. His father, Alois Hitler, was the illegitimate son of a wealthy Jew named Frankenberger, of Graz, Austria.

As far as the "feasible" part, I have learned a lot about the German invention of the Gas Chamber and that it was designed for delousing and not possibly practical, even when modified, for mass extermination of people. The Nazi's did however have a means to exterminate masses of people by using the train cars as gas chambers. But they never did that.

Originally posted by finallianstallion

Originally posted by forestlady
I have known many people who either survived the camps, or had friends/relatives who did. I've also seen a survivor with the number tattooed on his arm. I've heard too many survivor stories to think it didn't happen. It DID happen and there were 6 million Jews killed. The ovens were going 24/7 and held lots of people at one time. IBM supplied the gas for the ovens.

Why is it so difficult to believe it happened? Humans are capable of absolute cruelty, why wouldn't this have happened?

IBM provided the gas? Are you talking about the computer company IBM or what? Maybe U could explain more. Now what Ive heard is that IBM got sued because they allegedy provided naziz with computers. And that was concluded by saying that naziz could not have calculated how many prisoners they kiled in camps. If this is the same IBM then this is perfect example how rumors and misinformation spreads false information.
IBM sellin gas? huh...


[edit on 14-12-2006 by finallianstallion]

Good point and thanks Finalli for catching my error. Sorry, I was in a hurry when I wrote that. It was I.G. Farben who provided the Zykoon-B cyanide. IBM provided equipment so that they could keep count of how many were in the death camps.

Originally posted by Ed Littlefox


I can see that many of you are young--very young. I am not, for what it's worth. I am having a real problem getting my head around the fact that there still are those in the World who would deny the Holocaust.

ED: Thanks, I was thinking the same thing and I'm not young either.

Dalen: I DID read it, in fact several times but I couldn't make sense as to how it related to the topic. If you had asked does anyone believe the Zionists were responsuible, instead of whether or not it happened, then I would have understood what you were getting at. Now about Zionism, I think that may or may not be the case, I really don't know. However, it is rumored that Hitler's mother was a housekeeper in the home of one of the Rothschild's and she had an affair with the young son, became pregnant and produced Hitler. So there is speculation that Hitler is the illegitimate son of the House of Rothschild. If that is true, then that's more evidence for Zionism, as the Rothschilds are connected with that movement. The Rothschilds are Jewish, but in name only. They have screwed over many Jews throughout their history.

I have read that a Rothschild engineered the holocaust in order to create Israel, which they would be able to control. The Star of David is their family insignia, and it is also on the Israeli flag, as well as on one of their main public buildings, can't remember which. I don't know if this is true or not, but I do believe that the Rothschilds are connected to Zionism. It may well have been the Zionists who started the ball rolling, I really don't know, I don't have enough information yet.

But my point, in keeping with the original post, is that it DID happen and whether or not it was 1 million or 6 million, it still was horrendous and was still a holocaust. Almost all of the European gypsies were exterminated at that time.

Someone else asked about why would Hitler kill the Jews since he was part Jewish. Well, Germany had just been through a horrible Depression and the Germans followed the time-honored tradition of blaming the Jews, because so many of them were bankers and financiers. And simply, Hitler hated Jews. He may have been part Jewish, but that's real standard operating procedure for someone who doesn't like an aspect of themselves, to project it onto others.

Besides that, Hitler was crazy and got worse as time went on. He was a major methamphetamine addict and that can cause psychosis. Towards the end, he was so crazy that his generals tried to assasinate him. They were afraid of him, he was too irrational and unpredictable.

Holocaust denial is not about questioning whether or not the holocaust happened. It's about questioning whether or not what happened can be called a holocaust.