JSF and British/American Ties

Oh.. Semperfoo, you worry me so...

Lets look at this objectively,

Fact 1,
Yes the US could have happly built the F-35 without any outside assistance, be it technical or even captial, but the fact is, that the aircraft would either exceed its developed time/costs or even be cut in such a way as the F-22 is at the moment. That is a fact, look at any US development program from the 70's to now which has always over ran its development/production budget, because for many situations they try to "reinvent" the wheel, when they could cut costs and get a high quality item from the world leaders, reducing development times in the process.

Fact 2,
The UK could select another option if the requests for full control over the aircraft and its systems were denied. What if we supplied the F-35 fleet and F-22 with the captor system, yet the USAF/USN/USMC had to come to BAE or the RAF for repairs and upgrading, what if the US planned to attack a nation friendly to the UK, would the US like the feeling that we could switch off their attack systems? I doubt it. We want the ability to change the aircraft and its software as we see fit, the same way we can install and change software within windows or os x.

Fact 3,
Leeching of tech, come come SemperFoo, I doubt that the US has a leg to stand on when it comes the the transfer of technology History tells us that. We have the technology in the UK and Europe to develop aircraft of the same standard and design as the F-35 but the reason we don't is that there is little polictical will to commit the funds, sadly. But thats a good thing, as if it wasn't for us arrogant Brits, the VTOL version of the F-35 wouldn't be around, as you folks have yet to work it out, but you know what a partnership is about? Give and take, I think you americans are missing that, we are getting a good deal on this aircraft, but your mistaken if you think we are getting a free ride or getting more than we have put in.

Fact 4,
What about the billons of pounds, pounds NOT dollars, spent on our research into VTOL aircraft from the 60's?

Fact 5,
Last time I checked, the US forces in said Third World Countries aren't doing so well...

Enjoy

or hey when the US involves Uk companies in it's projects obviously bending rules for our friends in the UK and then spends almost 20x more than them to get it done and to incorperate technology that the Uk had nothing to do with I would call that pure love. yet the attitude towards americans here is pure disgust and dislike, it's very anonying.

Originally posted by ape
the US knows the Uk will be taken over by a bunch of crazy muslims in the future and doesnt wanna take any chances ;-(. hey if u want to take it down a notch we can.

no muslim problem here, 1.7 million muslims live here out of our 60 million population, but even so britain is not a racist country unlike america (as seen 50s/60s/early70's)

+ i think the US currently have it's own problems to be whittling on about other countrys, problems such as your southern mexican friends running over your boarders and i won't even mention your debt and $

Originally posted by ape
yet the attitude towards americans here is pure disgust and dislike, it's very anonying.

have you seen your own attitude, if you look back your the one doing the 'attacking' then when somebody say's something back you don't like it.

don't dish out that you can't take

who are you kidding? I have been civil this entire time and the attitude form the brits on this thread finally disgusted me to a point where I had to respond, so if YOU infact cannot take it, dont dish it out.

and yes your country does have a jihadist problem, those bus bombings were home grown.

[edit on 13-12-2006 by ape]

Originally posted by ape
and yes your country does have a jihadist problem, those bus bombings were home grown.

sooo, your very own 9/11 hijackers were trained in US.

[edit on 13-12-2006 by st3ve_o]

Originally posted by Sepiroth
to the above member, you sound like an angry person and judging by the gun in your picture somebody i wouldn't like to meet

LOL. I dont bite... Hard. Alright cheap knock off of Austin Powers. for some reason that works better in person.

Usually trying to judge someone over the computer doesnt work. You cant read a persons tone in their voice over the net. You cant see there facial expressions and so on and so fourth. No hard feelings here young chap! Just a crazy debate going in a downward spiral.

as for your points, i suggest you take a look at technology’s that the United States have taken from Great Britain in the past, equipment that the United States still buys off not only Britain but Europe too.

But in the history of these two nations. No one has ever benefitted from a single project more then the way you brits have from us americans. We spent the bulk of all the cash. Building this bird from the ground up. And what do we get in return?
With the above statement by you, i can see you fail to see the point. the US has spent Hundreds of billions of hard earnd american taxpayer dollars on the F22 raptor. Now, some of that same technology that WE spent on that project is also going to be incorporated into the JSF on top of the 35 large we put down for this program in itself. Your getting a top of the line fighter aircraft for basically nothing. Your comparing apples to oranges my friend.
Same applys for the bottom of your statement. Both countrys benefit greatly frome each other. But Britain has been pampered far more with the JSF programme then we americans ever were by any programme you brits helped us out with in terms of technological 'shareing' and military spending. This is a threat to our national security.

How many things operated by the British armed forces that have been bought directly from the United States?, i can think of 2 - Trident/JSF.....i can make a huge list if you wish of technologys/equipment the United States have bought from the United Kingdom and even greater list from Europe

so please stop these tears about how the US are handfeeding the UK and how we are a burden on you with our so called ‘friendship’ between both nations, because:-
1) you are certainly are not feeding us.
2) if it was left to me we‘d stuff our so called friendship and leave you in the middle-east tomorrow and let you to sort out your own problems.

I could say that you should be thanking me and american tax payers for making the JSF a reality for you brits. You just had your christmas and it was at the expense of the american taxpayers and then you so such lack of class? Honestly who cares if your with us or not. Either way Ill still sleep good at night.

I can see a bit of national pride is hurt. Its on both sides. The US spent alot of money on this project. I mean alot of money. And you guys get all that technology for 2 billion dollars? See me and my american friends just dont see that as being fair see?.


[edit on 093131p://333 by semperfoo]

heh, were they US citizens born and raised? NO. they also recieved some training in the US but also training in europe aswell. I dont think anyone ever expected people to highjack planes and fly them into buildings.

im sorry the attacks on your country came from people who were raised in that country and influenced by your country. also your country recognises that mindset and im sure they will keep a handle on it, I was just trying to take myself down to your level and your peers.

Could someone lock this thread? It's getting ridicules now and it is completely off topic. Thanks.

Originally posted by Sepiroth
How many things operated by the British armed forces that have been bought directly from the United States?, i can think of 2 - Trident/JSF.....

Sorry, i have to pipe in on the side of the Yanks here. We buy ATGM's of them (Javelin), MLRS, C-130's, the afore mentioned Trident, we have bought Fighter/Bomber aircraft in the past (Phantom's), plus a whole plethora of smaller systems for bits and bobs.

On the other hand, we also supply a bucket load of stuff in return. In Aerospace, we are primary sub-system contactors for an awful lot of aircraft. We supply them with the advanced Chobham armour (note, we don't let them have Dorchester as of yet) and other AFV sub-systems. We have even managed to offload a whole Aircraft on to the USMC (Harrier). Not to mention jet engine technology, both past and present, rocket know how, The Manhattan Project etc etc.

The only reason why the Yanks believe they are the "leaders" is because they pay for everything. On the whole, alot of the systems within their own "uber" equipment is foreign, they just don't like to admit it

Yea im done with it westpoint. Its not use.

why lock it westpoint? it was your suggestion to make a thread like this....agreed we are going off subject a little here, but i don't feel a mod needs to lock it...maybe a warning to keep posts on track (should he/she feel thats an issue).

but these boards are about opinions and 'opinions' can quickly make a subject turn to another and make tempertures boil if people believe strongly enough about something (as seen in the british 'house of commons') ^people who run the country^

but i feel it's a good subject and some good arguments from both sides of the pond

[edit on 13-12-2006 by st3ve_o]

We spent the bulk of all the cash. Building this bird from the ground up

I don't think you have "built this bird from the ground up". I think you'll find two major players in the development have been RR and BAe. Without which, you would have to build from the ground up with no prior expierience in V/STOL and without a large chunk of sub-systems. But hey, who's counting....

Steve O, yes it was but this thread has turned into country bashing with both sides throwing mud back and forth, there have been a lot on unnecessary insults and I'm just sick of it. I know this is your thread but that's just how I feel.


[edit on 13-12-2006 by WestPoint23]

Originally posted by stumason

We spent the bulk of all the cash. Building this bird from the ground up

I don't think you have "built this bird from the ground up". I think you'll find two major players in the development have been RR and BAe. Without which, you would have to build from the ground up with no prior expierience in V/STOL and without a large chunk of sub-systems. But hey, who's counting....

And again thanks to lockheed martin. Thanks to the American Taxpayers that BAE LH and all the other players had their funds to make this bird fly! But whos counting, just a few hundred billion.

Originally posted by semperfoo


And again thanks to lockheed martin. Thanks to the American Taxpayers that BAE LH and all the other players had their funds to make this bird fly! But whos counting, just a few hundred billion.

Hey, I don't dispute that. In fact, if you look back, you'll find I acknowledged the Americans tendency to fund a project whilst still using foreign companies. Doesn't bother me if you want to pay our chaps to come up with funky stuff

As was pointed out pages ago, the code problem has been resolved. Don't see what the fuss is about now. I even stuck up for you Yanks a few post's ago....

No one noticed though... Typical...

Agreed on this stupid non sense. It looks like whats done is done.
Just dont F*ck it up

and how much 'foreign' technology is incorperated in the raptor?

Originally posted by ape
and how much 'foreign' technology is incorperated in the raptor?

Interesting you should ask that. Much of the cockpit electronics, including the HUD are produced by BAe, the Electronic warfare systems are BAe and the flight control systems are BAe...

To add:

It seems that alot of the internal electronics, such as EWS, HUD and flight control systems on many US aircraft are indeed British....