JSF and British/American Ties

Originally posted by waynos
The British perspective is that we require full operational sovereignty over aircraft that we have bought and helped develop and manufacture, an aircraft programme that the P.1216 and SeaTyphoon studies were cancelled so that we could participate in, bringing unequalled V/STOL experience to the party with us.

Well, that's the point now, isn't it?

Just because you bought something does not entitle your to the manufactuing secrets behind the product. If you purchase a bottle of Coca-Cola, that does not entitle you to the secret recipe which makes Coke so delicious and satisfying. Bill Gates will not give you the source code to Windows, simply because you bought 150 new PC's and plan on modifying them in the future. Unless......it's in the contract which both parties agree to prior to the sale. This is clearly not the case with the F-35. But hey! We're reasonable people. If you want to renegotiate the terms of the contract, I'm sure we could accommodate your needs........for a price.

But seriously. The problem is that the great majority of these source code(s) incorporated in the F-35 are derived from the F-22, for which GB and others made zero contributions. This was made crystal clear during the beginning of this process, and nobody was snookered into buying a defective aircraft or something that doesn't come fully equipped. If fact, one of the reasons the UK is buying this aircraft is because it offers performance at an acceptable price (to the MoD) - and that low price can be partially attributed to technologies transferred from other US aircraft programs - programs we paid for.

You will have to pardon us if we take your claims of "protecting US secrets" with a grain of salt. Not that you have a long track record of ripping us off or anything, but we view you as being too intimate with other companies and governments who do rip us off, and compete directly with our companies, and are involved with nationaization of aircraft companies and lavish government subsidies. You see, we don't view that as fair, so you'll have to pardon us if we seem reluctant to reveal the keys to our kingdom.

We view your contributions over the years, especially in VTOL technologies, as nothing short of masterful. Your a trusted, long-time customer....which is why your gettting the best product at the best rate. But......the American taxpayers have invested billions upon billions of US dollars in the development of stealth and advanced 5th generation avionics over the last 20 years. That investment and technology is not some small trifle that will be handed out on the basis of friendship.

You have voted Pyros for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.

Well said Pyros. The F-35 represents the latest in US fighter technology with some systems being more advanced than those on the F-22. The fact that it's being exported to the UK says alot, however I'm afraid you're trying to have your cake and eat it too.



[edit on 11-12-2006 by WestPoint23]

i don't understand the above points

the same can be said for technologies that america have taken on board that have cost billions out of british tax payers money, british research such as the atom/radar/V-STOL (to name a few), i feel if you pay for a ferrari you should get a FERRARI not a ferrari shell with 2nd rate parts stuck in

pyros made a point about coca cola and bill gates, but those points are irrelevant...the codes that britain are asking for could have an effect on the 'performance' of the item in discussion…therefore i reverse the point back onto you, what do you do if you find the 'coca-cola' tastes sour or if bill gates 'windows' keeps corrupting?.

*answer* you send the items back but in this case you don't purchase the items at all.

To sum it up - Americas terms are unreasonable and unacceptable to work with as we are not talking about pop drinks or bill gates, we are talking about THE DEFENCE OF A NATION, without these codes we have a piece of equipment that is not our own and a piece of equipment that a ‘overseas’ nation is basically in control of.

Originally posted by st3ve_o
To sum it up - Americas terms are unreasonable and unacceptable to work with as we are not talking about pop drinks or bill gates, we are talking about THE DEFENCE OF A NATION, without these codes we have a piece of equipment that is not our own and a piece of equipment that a ‘overseas’ nation is basically in control of.

Did the UK sign an agreement, or did they not? Did you not read the terms of the agreement? Are you saying that the performance of your produce differs from the advertisements, or the terms of the agreement?

No, you are saying that you assumed that you would be getting more than what the deal entailed, based upon your "special relationship". You know, there is an old joke about those who "assume".......

Please don't reference money that GB spent in the 1940's and 1950's...that you imply that provided the US with an advantage, or that somehow GB was denied due profits or royalties. I'm sure an analysis of the bottom lines of US and GB defense spending starting in 1941 will show that GB made out like a bandit during this time. Ancient history references will only begat ancient arguements.

Why do you keep implying that the product will not work as advertised, or is less than what you bargained for? I'm sorry you are buying Windows "Home Edition" while we are getting Windows "Professional", but thats the nature of the biz.

Really, I would never have thought that lessons from Capitalism 101 were necessary for British subjects........

Pyros, I believe that it will do exactly what it says on the tin. of that there is little doubt. Probably. Perhaps, well maybe.

But what happens old son, if they get damaged or have a prang?

We Brits can hardly send them to our local Chop Shop for a quick fix, now can we? Why not?

Because you canny Yanks are refusing to hand over the codes that will alow us, the end user, to repair the aircraft and reprogramme the computers to our own specs.

If you purchase, say a Gateway computer that has Windows XP Professional or Office as standard, and after a few months decide that you are unhappy with it's clock speed or graphics, you don't send it back to Gateway or back to Microsoft because you go and buy a new chip, update your hard drive or buy a new graphics card.

This is the case with the JSF. I believe this is what our MOD is griping about. We will have to return OUR aircraft to you, so that you can do any upgrade and I might add, poke around the computers and see what MOD have been up to.

Hardly fair is it?

Same thing happened to the Trident missiles and was exactly the cause of the recent spat about the Chinooks we purchased from you.

Funny how you Yanks always trust us to help you fight your battles. How come you don't trust us with your technology?

After all, BAe has probably helped you produce most of it anyway!

And please guys, will you stop banging on about stealth technology! It's quite boring and as the Serbs proved over Kosovo, it aint up to much in the rain with a decent radar looking at it.

Or had you guys forgotten that?

[edit on 11-12-2006 by fritz]

The UK agreed to those terms and should now abide by them. US companies and tax payers footed the overwhelming majority of the cost and research, as such this is a US product with LM and the US having the sole right to the F-35 source code which we developed. You can still operate and maintain the aircraft you just cant change, download, and or know the decrypted internal code and programs of the F-35 Lightning II.

Originally posted by Pyros

Did the UK sign an agreement, or did they not? Did you not read the terms of the agreement? Are you saying that the performance of your produce differs from the advertisements, or the terms of the agreement?

No, you are saying that you assumed that you would be getting more than what the deal entailed, based upon your "special relationship". You know, there is an old joke about those who "assume".......

again read what i said earlier, i'm not sure what the agreement was (please provide links) but i know for a fact in this 'agreement' would not have said "thou shall not have full operational sovereignty over the aircraft"

Originally posted by Pyros
Please don't reference money that GB spent in the 1940's and 1950's...

erm why not afterall we are talking about 'stealth' here, a 1970's invention.

Originally posted by Pyros
that you imply that provided the US with an advantage, or that somehow GB was denied due profits or royalties.

i'm not saying america never paid us for these, but britain aren’t exactly wanting the joint strike fighter in the january sales we are willing to pay a nice sum for these 150 aircraft and same as waynos said, for something that we have helped 'develop' and 'manufacture'.

Originally posted by Pyros
I'm sorry you are buying Windows "Home Edition" while we are getting Windows "Professional", but thats the nature of the biz.

no need to be sorry, as said i'm sure we'll get what we are asking for

but still i feel this shouldn't be an issue anyway after all the help britain as given over the years to the US (cold war/alfghanstan/iraq) - but hey maybe if you invade iran or korea, britain should ask for a nice fee ($$$) for our assistance or for america to give up a certain amount of it's resources/land, id like that

afterall it's something america wouldn't hesitate to do if positions were reversed (as seen in ww1, ww2) good job britain isn't like that though or you'll be bankrupt, woops you already are

[edit on 11-12-2006 by st3ve_o]

The reason they won't hand it over is simple.

They are afraid we'll do better with it than they have

Originally posted by fritz
XphilesPhan

Im sorry, I didnt mean to sound insulting...

You’re not. You're being American and acting as we expect Americans to act towards their staunchest ally – in a totally condescending manner.

look, if it were up to me, britain would have those codes.

Good. The improvement in your manners is duely noted. Now, be a good little American and run along and get us the codes, there’s a good chap! [Spoken with several plums in the mouth]

I think it is BS that we are witholding these codes. I think our friendship with braitain is worth more that software!, which they will probably crack anyway.

Your new found friendship is most welcome as are your compliments to our secret service and codebreakers.

However XphilesPhan, you cannot expect to be welcomed into our club with spelling like that!

The correct spelling for our country is: Great Britain

Well fritz, I said IF it were up to me, and I was supporting britain's desire to have the codes. I didnt think anything I said was condescending.

Since you think I was, and like to comment on my spelling....

I have only one response...

BLOW IT OUT YOUR ASS!

Hey, thats enough.

Let's keep it civil, shall we? There is some national pride at stake on both sides, but lets not degenerate into insulting each other...please.

God fighting between Americans and Brits is absolutely ridiculous. You guys should take some rohypnol mixed with alcohol so you can shut up for a while.

Originally posted by stumason
Hey, thats enough.

Let's keep it civil, shall we? There is some national pride at stake on both sides, but lets not degenerate into insulting each other...please.

Stu, I agree civility is needed in open forums..
Which leads me to question why you would tell Xphiles "hey thats enough" while Paperplane, devilwasp, and fritz pretty much how do you brits say it...take the mickey or piss outa us (americans)...doesn't seem fair.

statements like these...
"But then again what do you expect from a nation like america... "

"You’re not. You're being American and acting as we expect Americans to act towards their staunchest ally – in a totally condescending manner."

while not using swear words these statements are just as inflamatory...IMO

and to be honest and this comes from living in a british derived culture (NZ)...the america bash thing is getting old...real old.

Originally posted by devilwasp
Fritz you have to remember THIER war on terror began on 9/11 when OURS has been going on for over a century.

Can you elaborate?

some people dont want to accept the fact that the government that represents them already signed an agreement and are now trying to work over an option that was never apart of the original agreement signed. can't blame the brits for atleast an attempt you gotta give them that.

once again like originally pointed out they can still modify maintaine the equipment and attempting to persuade america into sharing secrets that dont need to be shared and then complaining and contemplating on pulling out is totally unprofessional and childish when you look at what they would be purchasing which is air supremacy at it's finest ( f-22 exception ).

neformore I'm assuming you're being sarcastic when you say america doesn't want to handle over the technology because england will develope a better version, with that logic one would think the UK would have the intuition to develope an aircfraft that would equal or match the JSF which is obviously not the case here hense the complaint from the MOD. they know american tech is NICE.

unfortunatly for the UK they didn't put jack crap down for the R&D etc for the raptor the americans did and that aircraft is hands down the OWNER of the owners of the sky and is the JSF's older brother and where the JSF derived from. we are talking billions upon billions of dollars here and that 2 bill you put down just wont cut it when it comes to americas top secret technology something your country did not contribute to.

are the brits the only ones complaining? from what I can recall they aren't the only country involved in this project... is italy complaining? how about the aussies? I have not heard anything from them if im wrong please correct me but im going to assume the reason is because they know what they're getting.

also in referencing the UK's sacrifice on the battle fields of the middle east I would like to remind you that those london train bombings is a prime example of why your country is involved in this conflict, using that as an example to justify your opinion of american arrogance and hesitance to provide state of the art tech is pretty weak IMO.

this isn't just americas war

Originally posted by deadbang
Stu, I agree civility is needed in open forums..
Which leads me to question why you would tell Xphiles "hey thats enough" while Paperplane, devilwasp, and fritz pretty much how do you brits say it...take the mickey or piss outa us (americans)...doesn't seem fair.

statements like these...
"But then again what do you expect from a nation like america... "

"You’re not. You're being American and acting as we expect Americans to act towards their staunchest ally – in a totally condescending manner."

while not using swear words these statements are just as inflamatory...IMO

and to be honest and this comes from living in a british derived culture (NZ)...the america bash thing is getting old...real old.

Thank you.

I do apologise for my choice of language, but come on! One glance at the boards and you can see such a huge amount of america bashing that it makes you sick.

I dont know if the problem is derived from jealousy or just a plain old distaste for americans or both, but it is getting OLD, FAST.

I am about to open a thread to address this issue because it is WAY out of hand and quite frankly, it is distasteful. Im sure it has driven potential members away.

I have lived in England as well and it is the same thing. We cant even have a discusion on this board about military technology without battle lines being drawn between members.

legitimate criticisms are one thing, but all I see is outright slander here on ATS.

Originally posted by ape

are the brits the only ones complaining? from what I can recall they aren't the only country involved in this project... is italy complaining? how about the aussies? I have not heard anything from them if im wrong please correct me but im going to assume the reason is because they know what they're getting.

also in referencing the UK's sacrifice on the battle fields of the middle east I would like to remind you that those london train bombings is a prime example of why your country is involved in this conflict, using that as an example to justify your opinion of american arrogance and hesitance to provide state of the art tech is pretty weak IMO.

this isn't just americas war

Well another problem is, If the US gives the source codes to the UK then wouldnt that be playing favorites? What about Australia and Italy etc? Wouldnt they then demand the source codes makeing espionage a greater threat to american tech?

I agree with everything you said especially the bottom. This is fighting an ideology that should be viewed as a major concern to the rest of the world. NOT just to America.




[edit on 103131p://111 by semperfoo]

Originally posted by XphilesPhan


I am about to open a thread to address this issue because it is WAY out of hand and quite frankly, it is distasteful. Im sure it has driven potential members away.
legitimate criticisms are one thing, but all I see is outright slander here on ATS.

Well i didnt know that those brits had such dislike for us americans before i came to this board. Either way We americans wont lose sleep over what a bunch of tea guzzling, tree hugging hippies, with bad teeth think of us.



And westpoint. That girl in your avatar looks horrible in that dress.. She should take it off!

[edit on 113131p://111 by semperfoo]

One wonders if it's not possible to crack the codes?

It's something brits have been the best in the world at for a long time

Originally posted by semperfoo
Well i didnt know that those brits had such dislike for us americans before i came to this board. Either way We americans wont lose sleep over what a bunch of tea guzzling, tree hugging hippies, with bad teeth think of us.

And westpoint. That girl in your avatar looks horrible in that dress.. She should take it off!

[edit on 113131p://111 by semperfoo]

yeah! ya bunch of tea drinking pansies! *shakes my fist furiously* I like tea too though,

Look guys, I LOVE America and Americans but some of your people I have worked with professionally, just don't cut the mustard.

What I object to in the strongest terms possible, is the way your heirarchy continually puts us Brits down.

It is not only about codes, it's about lots of things as I've tried to explain forcefully, I will admit!

We Brits are your staunchest allies and I guess, will remain so. What you Yanks have to try to understand, is the mindset of we Brits.

It appears to us, that the only time you Yanks can be bothered with us on an almost - but not quite, equal footing, is when you need a buddy to help you fight a war.

We Brits have become your Martini Girls - any time, any place, anywhere!

All we ask in return is a little respect, a little love and a big hug when we need one.

And of course, those damned codes.

Regarding my earlier posts about Yanks talking down to us well, to be honest, you do! It is in your nature because you think that America is right about everything and you do hate receiving criticism of any kind.

I was responding very much tongue in cheek, especially when I said, 'Now be a good little Yank and run along and get us those codes - etc' You'll note that I was being condescending with several very large plums in my mouth, trying to affect that twitish upper crusty English Old School
Cambridge semi-aristocratic accent that such people use.

One of the problems you Yanks have, is that unlike we Brits, you cannot stant having the p*ss taken out of you, and accordingly, you start to over-react.

Now..............................about those damnable codes....................