KofC & Freemasonry

Originally posted by LTD602
You know what, that's fair enough. When Christ comes for a second time (he's taking quite a while, it seems), THEN I'll be more than happy to be judged.

Until that time, I'm here. Masons are here. You're here, too, and provided you stay on topic and adhere to the TOS, then you're free to defend the RCC to your heart's content.

I've seen people come at the Masons and usually the Masons come to the defence worthy of a superpower. Not saying it's right or wrong, not my place. This though I do not find worth of either side. "He's taking quite a while"? Are you judging the speed of God? Secondly, bringing up the TOS is pretty much a threat. Everyone here has to abide by this, not just people that are trying to debunk Masonry.

Please, I'm a Mason, and proud of it. Masonry takes good men and makes them better!!

We're NOT a secret society - we're a society that has a few secrets, and believe me, not as many as people make it out to be. A "secret" society doesn't divulge the identity of its members - there's plenty of masons out there, myself included, who wear the ring(s) and have the license plate. Our lodges have a giant compass and square on them! A secret society doesn't let those who are not in it know where it meets. Our meetings are closed, but so are those of many other organizations - school boards, corporate boardrooms - try to walk into one of those off of the street some time and see what happens!

It's kind of amusing to me that the Vatican in 1983 condemned the joining of a Masonic Lodge as a "grave sin" yet in St. Louis, the Cardinal Glennon children's hospital accepts our money every year...there's an irony there....

People need to remember that Hitler put many a Mason to his death during his "final solution" - it wasn't that long ago, and it's not like it couldn't happen again. We have certain secrets by which we can identify ourselves to one another - there's no world takeovers discussed - as a matter of fact, some lodges prohibit the discussion of certain topics in totale, as they cause division amongst people, and we're there to enjoy the fraternity.

Pope Clement VI didn't condemn the Knights Templar (Freemasons) until King Philip de Bel in France welched on paying back the money that he borrowed from them, and then it was a free-for-all of taking the Mason's property for the King and the Church. Yet we don't exclude Catholics - Catholics exclude Catholics from Freemasonry.

Speaking for me, I have become a better man and a better husband because of my membership in the Fraternity.

My $0.02

Originally posted by intrepid

Originally posted by LTD602
You know what, that's fair enough. When Christ comes for a second time (he's taking quite a while, it seems), THEN I'll be more than happy to be judged.

Until that time, I'm here. Masons are here. You're here, too, and provided you stay on topic and adhere to the TOS, then you're free to defend the RCC to your heart's content.

I've seen people come at the Masons and usually the Masons come to the defence worthy of a superpower. Not saying it's right or wrong, not my place. This though I do not find worth of either side. "He's taking quite a while"? Are you judging the speed of God? Secondly, bringing up the TOS is pretty much a threat. Everyone here has to abide by this, not just people that are trying to debunk Masonry.

My sinceere apologies, Intrepid. You're right, that "taking quite a while" remark was below the belt. Wasn't very proper of me. Same with the the TOS remark. Not my position to remind people of that, anyway.

Originally posted by intrepid
... bringing up the TOS is pretty much a threat. Everyone here has to abide by this, not just people that are trying to debunk Masonry.

Trying to debunk masonry? Is THAT what you are trying to do? Wow... and here I thought you were trying to imitate FW for a laugh...

You need to try harder than that, intrepid.

My first ever post......................all I have to say is

DENY DENY DENY DENY DENY DENY DENY DENY DENY DENY DENY


It works well for the Masons! It may not be a secret that you are in society, but it is all about secrets! Good front that is put on with all the charitable work that is done by these groups, it's so good that even the majority of the members are hoodwinked! You really believe just because you are a mason that they are going to let you in on the real truth behind freemasonry (keep the illusion alive is all they are doing with you). A 32nd degree doesn't mean you are privy to the real truths. It just means that you are so far trapped, I say good luck!

Originally posted by wakenseek
My first ever post......................all I have to say is

DENY DENY DENY DENY DENY DENY DENY DENY DENY DENY DENY


It works well for the Masons! It may not be a secret that you are in society, but it is all about secrets! Good front that is put on with all the charitable work that is done by these groups, it's so good that even the majority of the members are hoodwinked! You really believe just because you are a mason that they are going to let you in on the real truth behind freemasonry (keep the illusion alive is all they are doing with you). A 32nd degree doesn't mean you are privy to the real truths. It just means that you are so far trapped, I say good luck!

And your point caller is????????????

In Freemasonry there is a great society that tells men many great truths about life. It is the people who hate Freemasons that are in denial. They have an agenda of hate and only they can say why they act in this shameful way. They are trapped in their hatred of Freemasonry and Freemasons.

Gerard

I'll bite.

So what ARE these "TRUTHS" wakenseek?

What awaits me at the 32nd degree? WHO will take me by the arm, pull me off to the side and invite me into "real" Masonry? Is that whow it works?

Assumptions, assumptions. You've got far too much of that.

Facts, please. Details. Proof.

There is no hatred toward masonry, only disbelief as to the brainwashing that occurs within their membership. Any knowledge they have taught you is easily accessable to any persons with the ability to seek it out. A membership to a cult is not a pre-requisite to a higher understanding. I am sure there are many great and genuine men who are freemasons but as long as they continue to be blinded by the smoke and mirrors of masonry they will never be able to see and understand the evils of this organization at the highest levels. You will not know their secrets if you are not one of them by blood. You will only remain their manipulated soldier to keep the illusion alive.

Originally posted by wakenseek
There is no hatred toward masonry, only disbelief as to the brainwashing that occurs within their membership. Any knowledge they have taught you is easily accessable to any persons with the ability to seek it out. A membership to a cult is not a pre-requisite to a higher understanding. I am sure there are many great and genuine men who are freemasons but as long as they continue to be blinded by the smoke and mirrors of masonry they will never be able to see and understand the evils of this organization at the highest levels. You will not know their secrets if you are not one of them by blood. You will only remain their manipulated soldier to keep the illusion alive.

What are these "evils"? What "smoke and mirrors" exactly?

"One of them by blood"? Masonry is not inherited.

Originally posted by wakenseek
There is no hatred toward masonry, only disbelief as to the brainwashing that occurs within their membership. Any knowledge they have taught you is easily accessable to any persons with the ability to seek it out. A membership to a cult is not a pre-requisite to a higher understanding. I am sure there are many great and genuine men who are freemasons but as long as they continue to be blinded by the smoke and mirrors of masonry they will never be able to see and understand the evils of this organization at the highest levels. You will not know their secrets if you are not one of them by blood. You will only remain their manipulated soldier to keep the illusion alive.

Here we go again with the "highest levels..." Since you are new here, I'll ask what's been asked OVER AND OVER on this forum? How is it YOU (an outsider) know so much MORE about Masonry than WE who are Masons? And again I ask WHAT "HIGHEST LEVELS?" Do a search and see how this topic has been repeatedly discussed, the "highest levels" and "secret decoder rings" debunked.

However you've added a new twist "one of them by blood" !!!???!!! What does this even mean? Give some FACTS, not speculation or hearsay. Oh, wait, you read it somewhere or someone you met told you. Must be true then.

YAAAWWWWNNNNNN!!!!

Oh well, thank you for dredging this silly nonsense up once again.

Now (hopefully) on to some actual intelligent thread...

Originally posted by wakenseek
There is no hatred toward masonry, only disbelief as to the brainwashing that occurs within their membership. Any knowledge they have taught you is easily accessable to any persons with the ability to seek it out.

Absolutely

A membership to a cult is not a pre-requisite to a higher understanding. I am sure there are many great and genuine men who are freemasons but as long as they continue to be blinded by the smoke and mirrors of masonry they will never be able to see and understand the evils of this organization at the highest levels.

well I agree with the first part, but have you not picked up the higher levels from an anti Masonic propaganda, because as someone has just pointed out . The insiders would know more surely. And do you not think its a bit condesending to say to someone thats has been a mason for say 20 years , he is so stupid he does not know what he is doing?

You will not know their secrets if you are not one of them by blood. You will only remain their manipulated soldier to keep the illusion alive.

I have to tell you, that I personally have never been asked to do anything different since I joined masonry , to what I did before. all that has happened is , that it makes you think more about your family, your neighbors, your friends.

Nrver has anyone questioned me on my Faith or tried to change my beliefs. All that has happened is I have taken part in the telling of a story, a simple story of struggle, fidelity and truth. A story as you pointed out yourself is known to all who wish to seek.

So as I have done no more and no less than you have, where do you think I have been corrupted ?

One of them by blood... ok... I am a fifth generation mason, on BOTH sides of my family. There are no secrets other than those granted to any mason... but as you note, the secrets are available to anyone that has a mind to do a little research.

The point is not the secrets.. the point is that masonry makes good men into better men.

You note that masonry keeps its "real" secrets by doing good work... well, I guess then that means the real secrets are on how to live a good and upright life. You see, there are no facts against masonry, but there are plently of facts that show masonry does much good in the world.

Absent facts to the contrary, what is seen is what is...

How come Masonic Ritual is posted all over the net, for any one with enough computer skills to find?

I have never seen any of the Knights of Columbus ceremonials posted anywhere on the net, unless someone can prove otherwise. We keep our ceremonials secret, as not to spoil it for the new members that come in. We would never want to ruin that fresh experience for them.

It seems Knights of Columbus have been better at keeping our secrets to ourselves.

Originally posted by chief_counsellor
How come Masonic Ritual is posted all over the net, for any one with enough computer skills to find?

I have never seen any of the Knights of Columbus ceremonials posted anywhere on the net, unless someone can prove otherwise. We keep our ceremonials secret, as not to spoil it for the new members that come in. We would never want to ruin that fresh experience for them.

It seems Knights of Columbus have been better at keeping our secrets to ourselves.

What an odd question to ask, laced with provocation.

The answer to this question should be obvious by now.

Originally posted by chief_counsellor
How come Masonic Ritual is posted all over the net, for any one with enough computer skills to find?

I have never seen any of the Knights of Columbus ceremonials posted anywhere on the net, unless someone can prove otherwise. We keep our ceremonials secret, as not to spoil it for the new members that come in. We would never want to ruin that fresh experience for them.

It seems Knights of Columbus have been better at keeping our secrets to ourselves.

For one thing, the K of C doesn't let each new member purchase his own ritual to keep. They are kept locked up (as I think they should be) when not in use. It's almost impossible for a non-member to get a copy. (Note that I said "almost") I collect and study fraternal rituals and have a whole set (1-3 degree...don't have the 4th, including a trial version that was issued post-Vatican II then dropped) but unlike some individuals, I haven't and wouldn't post them on the internet for all to see.

The interesting thing however about Masonic rituals is that there is no ONE Masonic ritual. Each jurisdiction's ritual is a bit different. Pennsylvania's ritual is VASTLY different from most U.S. Lodges. Missouri (where I live) got it's ritual partly from PA so ours is quite different from neighboring Illinois, Kentucky and Arkansas. When I moved back to Missouri from Kentucky I had to re-learn parts of the ritual because they're done so differently here. The basis and the teachings are the same, but wording is quite different. So when someone says "I've read the Masonic ritual" I always ask "which one?"

One other intersting thing about K of C ritual, there are of course several similarities to Masonry, but in the 1st Degree there's a line that's taken almost verbatim from the 1st Degree of Freemasonry.

Regards,

One other intersting thing about K of C ritual, there are of course several similarities to Masonry, but in the 1st Degree there's a line that's taken almost verbatim from the 1st Degree of Freemasonry.

Regards,

Well isn't THAT an interesting kettle of fish. Seems Freemasonry and K of C are perhaps a little more related than some would care to admit.

Senrak, you have a copy of the 1st to 3rd degree ceremonials for the Knights of Columbus??? Holy cow..how did you get those? You weren't on the degree teams for the Knights were you?

Originally posted by Cearbhall
Since you didn't read this the first time...........


"Freemasonry displays all the elements of religion, and as such it becomes a rival to the religion of the Gospel. It includes temples and altars, prayers, a moral code, worship, vestments, feast days, the promise of reward or punishment in the afterlife, a hierarchy, and initiation and burial rites. The central Christian doctrines of the Fall, the Incarnation, the necessity of baptism, the church, the sacraments, and the like are considered improper for discussion within the lodge and are relegated to the category of divisive or peripheral opinions. Masonic law is clear that the mention of Jesus Christ within the lodge or the use of His name in prayer is forbidden as offensive to non-Christian brethren."-Trosch

Oh, please, this is just more Catholic rhetoric to keep Catholics in line. The Catholic Church is BIG on telling everyone what they should think an dbleieve so that Catholics don't think and form opinions for themeselves.
Such a pity, really.
Such a controlling, guilt-ridden religion! What did you really think they would say about an organization they don't want you to join...they even created KofC to keep Catholics from joining Masonry!

Why can't the Church take Masonry at face value as Masonry takes KofC and Catholicism? What are they afraid of? And please, don't go into all that "loss of your soul" propaganda!
I was born and raised Catolic, attended Catholic school for 12 years and survived Vatican II. I see the coverup. What we were not taught in school or from the pulpit.
I can think and form opinions for myself. There is NOTHING evil in Masonry.

Originally posted by Kronos
The name of Vatican best friends is Opus Dei. They have also friends in media, universities (including Harvard), banking and industry (�Holy Octopus�). Founder Josemar�a Escriv� was just canonized .
Extremely controversial organization even within the Holy Church.

Put your Dan Brown books down, he doesn't know his #, he has the general idea but doesn't have his facts right, in fact I think he exists to send those curious of conspiracies on the wrong path...

The Vatican is it's own best friend, for it is still the glorious Roman Empire reigning supreme. Ironic how the Romans teach you about your savior isn't it? Thank you Constantine, Mithraism, and the cultural revolution of Rome in the 300s, 100s of competing groups of Christians, many of whom killed off so that the Romans can tell their version of the story. =P


Forget ranks and degrees, that is all irrelevant. Most lodges have bad communication with each other, not to mention, any one of you can start a pretty much start a legit lodge, who could prove your lodge to be a false one, all the knowledge needed to be fake masons is pretty much provided online.

While a lot of masonry focuses on the arcane knowledge of the mid-east region, you can't forget about Mithras.

One more thing, you cannot forget the influence that the self proclaimed messiah of the unification church, Sung Myung Moon, has on the 700 club as well as other televangelist in his financial circuit as well some of them being broadcasted on tv under his media publication groups.

Sung Myung Moon, The Neo-Con Agenda, Saudis, Kim Jung Il, Russia, China

What could be the connection?

[edit on 4-11-2004 by boombye]

Originally posted by theron dunn

Originally posted by intrepid
... bringing up the TOS is pretty much a threat. Everyone here has to abide by this, not just people that are trying to debunk Masonry.

Trying to debunk masonry? Is THAT what you are trying to do? Wow... and here I thought you were trying to imitate FW for a laugh...

You need to try harder than that, intrepid.

TD, my point was that everyone has to abide by the TOC, not just the non-Masons. If you get that I was trying to debunk Masonry out of that, you better take two steps back man, you're way too paraniod.