Is America the Antichrist

Futurism just did not hold water when really put to the test. At that point I started to research what it was that the original Protestant father’s interpretations of Prophesy had been, and it really changed things for me.

Again you're not going to explain anything to me about Futurism, I used to believe it myself, and know it as well as you do. Perhaps you don’t really understand what I mean by Futurism, Historicism, and Preterism.

I believe I could explain a thing or two about fututism that you are not aware of. And I am very aware of Preterism. The term Historicism however is not ringing any bells and sounds like a mixture of Preterism.

I haven't quite figured out why futurism doesn't work for you as it is scripturally sound.

[edit on 3-12-2006 by Sun Matrix]

Futurism had a style to it that attracted a lot of folks, due to the fact that it provided a timeline roadmap to the End Times, and it could be exactly told when the end would come. It also lacked the political incorrectness inherent to Historicism. Due to this fact Futurism has entrenched itself in many religions that it never belonged in. Thus the fact that I personally believe that it is the “great deception” mentioned in the bible as it will, in the end, lead many to receive “the Mark” that would not have otherwise.

There is no timeline to the Rapture only the season. The rapture will be the fulfilling of the times of the Gentiles. If you miss the rapture and you are a Gentile you are out of time. God is not interested in those who only seek him in times of trouble. You will believe the deception that the aliens have come. Just as the Jews were blinded from seeing the Messiah, so will the unraptured Gentiles be blinded to the truth that the Messiah has come. As God says, he will send strong delusion.

Now we get into all kinds of weirdness in Futurism with some folks trying to justify things that are not panning out the way they expect, or other things that seem to not make sense, and next thing you know we are talking about Aliens, and Holograms, and all that non-sense that has nothing to do with what is going to happen.

I haven't seen anything that is not panning out the way I expect. Everything is exactly as the Bible says. Right now we are witnessing the second part of the three part judgement of Babylon (Iraq ). Jeremiah 50 and 51 are being fulfilled right now. The final part of this judgement will occur on the during the Day of the Lord.

They will be busy looking for the Signs of Futurism to occur, which they never will, and take the mark in the interim as it is not going to be put into place by some Anti-Christ person, but rather in the form of an electronic ID by a country or conglomerate of allied countries.

The prophesied signs of Luke 21 are happening right now? Don't you see them?

Seeing the signs, we are to watch and be ready for the return of Messiah. Oil must be in the lamps.



I haven't seen anything that is unscriptural about futurism. Can you provide anything else................?

Thanks

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
I'm not sure the problem here. We know the season that the Rapture will occur but we don't know the year. The signs will tell us when it will occur.

Unfortunately the rapture does not exist in the Bible. It is a man-made concept that was started with the re-birth of futurism. According to both Post-Rapture Futurists and Historicists, the Church and Christians in general are here right up until the end and some will go through a new period of persecution for refusing to receive the National ID system.

Years back I did not see what the big issue was between Pre, mid, or post rapture, but I had it very well explained to me once and it changed my perspective. I always had the feeling that it would be a post tribulation thing, but I figured "hope for the best and be prepared for the worst". I simply figured that those that believed in a pre-trib stance would be in for a big shock when it did not happen that way. One day though, I had it explained to me that many Christians or those that thought they were Christians, would end up taking the mark because they expected to be ruptured away before the mark was instituted. That very much changed things for me, and for the first time I actually got in on some of these discussions online and in real life and tried to explain the dangers of this form of Christian wishful thinking.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
And yet we are clearly told that the man of sin will be revealed, the son of perdition, who is the Antichrist.

This description fits the Pontifex Maximus, he is the head of the Roman Catholic Church, the largest Christian organization on the planet. The idea that he declares himself God, or the representative of God on the earth is nothing new. He did this as Caesar, and he did this as the Pontiff.

Where else would one expect Satan to be, but in the highest ranking position possible in the Church, or the most powerful country in the world, where he can do the most damage. He certainly is not hanging out with the Satanist’s, he has them already anyway…

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
The term Historicism however is not ringing any bells and sounds like a mixture of Preterism.

As both Futurism and Preterism were written by Rome as a defense against Historicism, it predates both and is a mixture of nothing. There are a few versions of Historicism just as there are rapture arguments in Futurism; I presented the one that seems to me like it is happening now. Futurism, in simpler terms then I wrote above, simply believes that Daniel and Revelations prophecy can be explained in the events following the end of the “Age of the Jews” after the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
I haven't quite figured out why futurism doesn't work for you as it is scripturally sound.

Well for one reason, it’s too well known and too simple. It lays out things too specifically and I have even had arguments with people here that were members of Wicca that knew it as well as any Christian. Satan is not so stupid that he would allow something to be that well known. If it is well known, then watch out because it follows some agenda he has planned as a deception. He is a very subtle and intelligent being that has had thousands of lifetimes to lay out his trap.

Lets be honest when the futurist Anti-Christ gets on the Temple mount and declares himself to be God, then all the half Christians would suddenly “fill their lamps with oil” if you catch my drift. People would know the exact time it happened and what to expect to follow. No one would accept the mark at that point, even those that are not Christians, yet we know from the prophecy that many that claim to be Christians will do so. I recall something about . “every man that says to me lord, lord…”

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
God is not interested in those who only seek him in times of trouble.

Exactly why what I said above is correct. If things are as well known as Futurism, then everyone will get on the bandwagon at the last second, and be as worldly as possible right up to that point.

God is not stupid, he is going to catch the hypercritical pseudo-Christians with their pants down and their lamps empty.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
You will believe the deception that the aliens have come.

You kinda need to drop the alien thing, for me they are not a factor, as a Christian I don’t believe in them, and as a sleep technician I tend to believe that most abduction stuff is sleep paralysis. In the 8 years I worked in the aviation field, and all the years since that I have worked the night shift, I have seen exactly one thing that I could not explain. That one thing happened to be the night that NASA had the shuttle fire a laser through the atmosphere, so I cannot discredit that as what I saw. I have yet to have an alien bop me on the head to take one of my patients in the dead of night, nor flashy-thing me as there would be a gap in the polygraph recording. To be honest there are not enough folks out there that believe in aliens to have this be a legitimate end times threat.

If there are any aliens I would believe them to be fallen angels before I believed them to be from another world.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
As God says, he will send strong delusion.

Yeah, that delusion is believing that the Nation ID cannot be the mark as it’s not instituted by the Anti-Christ, Its not implanted under the skin at first, and because the Temple Mount is not rebuilt by the time its instituted. Now you understand what I am talking about?

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
I haven't seen anything that is not panning out the way I expect.

Right, but everything that we have seen up to now is man made. Israel being a nation again, the wars etc…

Don’t you find it funny that there is no Anti-Christ yet, nor a temple mount, and yet we are installing the national ID, and making other countries get the same thing?

In chat with I discussed this with folks in other countries and the UK, Australia, and Canada either already have one or are passing laws on the same thing.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
Right now we are witnessing the second part of the three part judgement of Babylon (Iraq ). Jeremiah 50 and 51 are being fulfilled right now. The final part of this judgement will occur on the during the Day of the Lord.

No argument there, my main thing is not what happens in what order so much as what the Beast is, a Country or conglomeration of allied countries. The most worldly countries in the history of the planet in fact, the Second Rome.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
I haven't seen anything that is unscriptural about futurism

Again, the lack of an Anti-Christ persona, the lack of a Temple Mount, the fact that there are many Christians that will accept the mark because they are following the signs of Futurism and don’t see these things. The fact that when I talk to folks about the National ID they tell me it cannot be the mark because there is not Anti-Christ, Temple Mount, and its not implanted. This is the Danger, and it’s the Deception. It sounds like your prepared either way, and that is a good thing.

I have a lot of serious life altering decisions to make between now and May 2008, and not many folks I talk to are taking them very seriously. They claim that they will not accept that ID, yet I guarantee that will only last until the first time their rent is due and they need to cash a paycheck. Then they will suddenly find a way to justify getting it, because that signs of Futurism have not yet come 100% to fruition, and they have seen 99% of those sings come true thus far. To be honest even though I am a Christian and its wrong to feel this way, I am actually scared.

Anyway, I hope that makes sense, and thank you for the vote.


[edit on 12/3/2006 by defcon5]

defcon5, I really believe that it is so far fetched to believe that the United States will start persecuting Christians in any way. If anything, the atheists and agnostics and Muslims and others should be scared of the Evangelical Right Wing!

Let me remind you...the United States is predominately Christian by far more than the majority.

Also...what will be so bad with a National ID System? IF you are talking about injecting people with it...that won't happen for a lonnngggg time. 2008 is way too early my friend, and trust me, an overwhelming majority wouldn't want something foreign injected into their bodies I assure you! And not only the Christians at that.

Did you ever sit back and think perhaps Revelations isn't telling the future at all? It is just a book explaining what the present looked like to some man who used whole lot of symbolism?

I mean really...it is just silly to look through gibberish and make meaning out of it. You can find meaning in anything.

"The crow calls out and the Great One flies with its wings with fire in its eyes pecking the eyes out of the fish"

The crow must be the United States because it is flying and the US has the best airforce....the fire is from the atomic weapon. It pecks out the eyes, meaning it declares war. OMG!

Originally posted by RetinoidReceptor
Let me remind you...the United States is predominately Christian by far more than the majority.

It will not be quite the same kind of persecution as has been in the past. Lets say that I refuse the mark, at that point I have to basically wander around like a homeless person. Would you say that most of them are persecuted? Then lets say that a couple of years later all the folks that did accept the National ID found out it was the mark, what do you think they will do to those that refused it, knowing that the wrath of God is about to hit them upside the head?

You think that maybe they’ll torture the crap out of those that were smart/blessed enough to not receive it?

The way it stands right now the majority of the Christian Right will receive the National ID as they believe in Futurism.

Originally posted by RetinoidReceptor
Also...what will be so bad with a National ID System?

Absolutely nothing, except that as a Christian my God tells me not to receive it. As an ex-techy Computer guy, I can see what a powerful thing this is, and how it has the potential to change the world for good. Unfortunately it also takes away much of mans free will, and that is something that God will not allow to happen. God gave us free will, and he will not allow man to take it away from us.

Originally posted by RetinoidReceptor
2008 is way too early my friend

The Nation ID is to be in place in May 2008, it may not start out as being implanted, but there is nothing in Revelations that says it HAS to be. It only seems that way through translation from Greek.

Maybe you should check out how many folks have already gotten them injected besides this. Much of the Mexican government, most AF pilots, and now they want to chip the entire military.

Originally posted by RetinoidReceptor
Did you ever sit back and think perhaps Revelations isn't telling the future at all? It is just a book explaining what the present looked like to some man who used whole lot of symbolism?

I am a Christian, and I don’t see it that way.

Originally posted by RetinoidReceptor
I mean really...it is just silly to look through gibberish and make meaning out of it. You can find meaning in anything.

Its only gibberish to those that have not read or do not understand the Bible. Prophecy was intentionally written so that those that are not Christian (lacking the Holy Spirit) will have a difficult, if not impossible, time understanding it. There is a specific prophetic language that requires a fundamental understanding of the rest of the Bible. I cannot explain this to you, if you don’t understand it, you won’t. Even though me and SunMatrix seem like we might be disagreeing on it, it’s only on pieces parts, not on the whole. As Christians we understand the underlying meanings, hence referrals to the Lamps, and such.

However, I don’t think that anyone out there is going to argue that many that claim to be Christians are in fact not, and those are the ones that will end up loosing it in the end.


[edit on 12/3/2006 by defcon5]

Originally posted by defcon5
Its only gibberish to those that have not read or do not understand the Bible. Prophecy was intentionally written so that those that are not Christian (lacking the Holy Spirit) will have a difficult, if not impossible, time understanding it. There is a specific prophetic language that requires a fundamental understanding of the rest of the Bible. I cannot explain this to you, if you don’t understand it, you won’t. Even though me and SunMatrix seem like we might be disagreeing on it, it’s only on pieces parts, not on the whole. As Christians we understand the underlying meanings, hence referrals to the Lamps, and such.

However, I don’t think that anyone out there is going to argue that many that claim to be Christians are in fact not, and those are the ones that will end up loosing it in the end.

Rereading this it sounds a bit harsh, so let me explain it further. Most Christians have gotten a bad name from the groups that push Christianity on those that don’t want it. The Jehovah’s Witnesses are a prime example, heck the RCC tried it at sword point and that ended up being something that Christians have had held against them since. I had a member here once ask me “What is so wrong with being a Pagan”. I have no answer to that as it’s my writings verse theirs. Christ once said that if someone does not believe what your saying to: “Kick the dust from your heels and move on”, and I have found that to be the best thing to do. There is nothing that I can personally do that will change someone’s heart; that must come from God, through his Holy Spirit. Now if someone wants to understand prophecy and such, then they need to say a prayer to God asking him that (and mean it), then read the scripture (feel free to U2U me about this, if this is the case). Again there is nothing that a Christian can do to change someone’s heart or beliefs. All that I am trying to accomplish here is “damage control” on some of the folks that I see as Christians being pushed off course through incorrect prophetic teachings that have crept into the church, to “deceive the very elect if possible”.

As such if you’re not a Christian, and don’t believe in prophecy, then there is not much point in engaging in this debate. I wish you luck and pray that you’ll someday understand what I am talking about, though time is running short. I will not try to force you to believe the same as a Christian, and would prefer not to debate this with you as you will never accept what I say.

Again I am not trying to sound mean or anything, it breaks my heart, but there are even members of my own family that do not understand this.


[edit on 12/3/2006 by defcon5]

Originally posted by defcon5

Unfortunately the rapture does not exist in the Bible. It is a man-made concept that was started with the re-birth of futurism.

Then what do you make of this verse.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Luke 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 And when these things begin to come to pass , then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh

And when you see these things (the signs of the end) BEGIN to come to pass look up, your redemption draweth nigh.

What do you do with these verses?

Futurists and Historicists, the Church and Christians in general are here right up until the end and some will go through a new period of persecution for refusing to receive the National ID system.

They are wrong. When the rapture occurs the alien explanation is already in place. The world will be in Chaos. Order out of Chaos as the Antichrist brings peace to the world. The age of the Gentile is over. Only the Jew will be saved from this point. The main harvest.

The alien gig did not really start until 1 year before Israel became a nation. There are those who understand that when the fig tree Blooms (Israel) the time is at hand. None of these things could have occured until Isreal was reborn. There are those that are waiting for their christ, the antichrist.

This description fits the Pontifex Maximus, he is the head of the Roman Catholic Church, the largest Christian organization on the planet. The idea that he declares himself God, or the representative of God on the earth is nothing new. He did this as Caesar, and he did this as the Pontiff.

Where else would one expect Satan to be, but in the highest ranking position possible in the Church, or the most powerful country in the world, where he can do the most damage. He certainly is not hanging out with the Satanist’s, he has them already anyway…

The Catholic Church is Mystery Babylon in Revelations that will eventually be hated and destroyed by the 10 kings during the wrath.

Well for one reason, it’s too well known and too simple. It lays out things too specifically and I have even had arguments with people here that were members of Wicca that knew it as well as any Christian. Satan is not so stupid that he would allow something to be that well known. If it is well known, then watch out because it follows some agenda he has planned as a deception. He is a very subtle and intelligent being that has had thousands of lifetimes to lay out his trap.

Actually very few understand it. Most believe that if the rapture is missed all they have to do is not take the mark.

It's too late for the Gentile. If he misses the rapture...........he will not be saved.
God will turn his attention then to the Jew and fulfill his promises.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix

Originally posted by defcon5

Unfortunately the rapture does not exist in the Bible. It is a man-made concept that was started with the re-birth of futurism.

Then what do you make of this verse.

I consider those verses to be the final judgment. The rapture does not exist in the Bible; if it does, then give me a chapter and verse where I can find the word “rapture” in the Bible. We both know for a fact that it’s not there. The trump you mention is the seventh and final trump, making it the last judgment.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
They are wrong. When the rapture occurs the alien explanation is already in place. The world will be in Chaos. Order out of Chaos as the Antichrist brings peace to the world. The age of the Gentile is over. Only the Jew will be saved from this point. The main harvest.

The alien gig did not really start until 1 year before Israel became a nation. There are those who understand that when the fig tree Blooms (Israel) the time is at hand. None of these things could have occured until Isreal was reborn. There are those that are waiting for their christ, the antichrist.

Holy crap’olla, I was pretty much with you up until this point, then I don’t know what happened. Somehow I was talking about the Bible, and you went on to Star Trek or something. Please explain this to me, it makes zero sense.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
The Catholic Church is Mystery Babylon in Revelations that will eventually be hated and destroyed by the 10 kings during the wrath.

Yes, mystery Babylon on the scarlet beast is also Rome, but you forget that revelations is cyclic (repeats 3 times), not linear. So this is also about Rome from a different perspective then the earlier verse about the beast.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
Actually very few understand it. Most believe that if the rapture is missed all they have to do is not take the mark.

It's too late for the Gentile. If he misses the rapture...........he will not be saved.
God will turn his attention then to the Jew and fulfill his promises.

There is no rapture; there is only the final judgment, if there is a rapture show me something besides Christ’s return at the Final Trump. Revelations should show him coming to earth twice, once to get folks and the second time to judge people. According to the bible I have sitting here, he only comes back once.

As to him taking the Jews, if they are not messianic Jews, then they already missed the boat, they should have died Pre-Christ or accepted Christ. The 144 K are messianic Jews. The multitude in white with the palm branches are the Christians.

Originally posted by defcon5


I consider those verses to be the final judgment. The rapture does not exist in the Bible; if it does, then give me a chapter and verse where I can find the word “rapture” in the Bible. We both know for a fact that it’s not there. The trump you mention is the seventh and final trump, making it the last judgment.

I don't need to find the word, only the deed. You can call it a catching away which is where the word came from as you know.

The trump is the voice of God as found in Rev 4:1 which is about the catching away. Come up hither.

1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter

It is the last trump as it is the end of the Gentile age or time of the Gentiles. It has nothing to do with the trumpets that the angels blow. You will also find this trumpet(the voice of God) on the mountain at the giving of the law to the Jew.

Exodus 19:16 And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled. 17 And Moses brought forth the people out of the camp to meet with God; and they stood at the nether part of the mount. 18 And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the LORD descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly. 19 And when the voice of the trumpet sounded long, and waxed louder and louder, Moses spake, and God answered him by a voice.

Holy crap’olla, I was pretty much with you up until this point, then I don’t know what happened. Somehow I was talking about the Bible, and you went on to Star Trek or something. Please explain this to me, it makes zero sense.

What do you think all the alien BS is about. It is the lie that God says will be believed. God will send atrong delusion that they would believe the lie.

When the rapture happens........the excuse.........Aliens.......is already in place. And there will be alien craft flying around. All built on earth by man. The lie.

Speaking of Star treck what do you think the TRANSPORTER is all about........the Rapture. Scotty energize.

America is not the anti-Christ. The Pope is not the anti-Christ either.

The anti-Christ will be a human whom the entire world will adore and follow without question. Neither America, nor the Pope, fit that requirement.


[edit on 12/3/2006 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by defcon5

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
We know the season that the Rapture will occur but we don't know the year. .

Unfortunately the rapture does not exist in the Bible. It is a man-made concept ..

There is not a 'get out of tribulation free' rapture. It will not happen. Anyone who believes in one, or pushes one, and lives to see the end times and/or the anti-Christ, will have put themselves and their faith at risk if they are counting on an easy-out rapture.

There are MANY MANY threads here about the Rapture cult. Do a search for rapture, or even Nelson Darby. He's the failed Anglican priest who started a rapture cult in the mid 1800s which quickly caught on with American fundamentalists.

It's soul-candy that tastes great going down, but in the end just gives you an upset stomach and tooth decay.

Originally posted by RetinoidReceptor
Did you ever sit back and think perhaps Revelations isn't telling the future at all?

A stressed out, but religious, old man had some wild dreams and he wrote them down. He was stressed living in bad conditions in exile. He was stressed after having seen all his friends murdered and himself surviving a murder attempt. He was old and could possibly have been suffering from dementia.

MANY MANY Christians did not believe Revelations ment anything at all. Many big names who were later canonized by the Roman Catholic Church. Most Christians didn't even believe Revelation was important even up until the 500s.

It's too questionable and too wild to really know if it is viable or even understandable. Revelation isn't important to salvation.

haven't we already had him in adolf hitler?, a man who gathered a huge following (not just in his own country) and a man 'very close' to dictating/ruling the world.

Originally posted by defcon5
You think that maybe they’ll torture the crap out of those that were smart/blessed enough to not receive it?

Why would the people who received an implant torture other people who didn't? And how would people know that the "wrath of god" is coming?

Absolutely nothing, except that as a Christian my God tells me not to receive it. As an ex-techy Computer guy, I can see what a powerful thing this is, and how it has the potential to change the world for good.

Can you really tell what this National ID is going to be? Or can you only read horror projections about it by people who feel the same way you do? This National ID system has not necesssarily even been fully 100% proof tested. So how do YOU know what it is going to be like?

Unfortunately it also takes away much of mans free will, and that is something that God will not allow to happen. God gave us free will, and he will not allow man to take it away from us.

Again where do you get that it will "mind control" people? Maybe it is just an identification system! Maybe later on it will have all the information of people and financial info,etc.

Maybe you should check out how many folks have already gotten them injected besides this. Much of the Mexican government, most AF pilots, and now they want to chip the entire military.

And so what? Are they dying...becoming zombies...Satan coming from the depths of hell claiming their souls?

There is a specific prophetic language that requires a fundamental understanding of the rest of the Bible. I cannot explain this to you, if you don’t understand it, you won’t. Even though me and SunMatrix seem like we might be disagreeing on it, it’s only on pieces parts, not on the whole. As Christians we understand the underlying meanings, hence referrals to the Lamps, and such.

Actually...there is very large amount of disagreements on the nature of Revelation by Christians. There are even whole sects that were created based on the different interpretations! And no as Christians you do not understand the underlying meanings of the lamps/churches/Babylon/etc. You actually have no unified belief system on the book of Revelations at all. Only your interpretations of a bunch of symbolism that could have meant anything when written.



People thought the social security number was the 666 number as well. Maybe as humans technologically advance new things come up. You know...to be organized in an increasingly growing society that would be hugely disordered if we did not have some organization. Religions stunt the growth and advancement of society, technology, and science. Ask me what the true Satan is, and it is the ignorance that has commenced with the fables and myths of ancient people!