Illegal Alien Crime Destroying America

Rdang,
I can see that you have it all figured out, and I'd like you to help me figure it out too.

You see, I'd love to believe that the problems facing our government, such as crime, low wages, excessive government spending, inflated medical costs, and the fact that the US government seems to be the only provider of medical insurance that can't stay in the black are all the fault of some vampiric outside force that can be quickly done away with. I mean hey, if that's the case then we're on the verge of Utopia; all we've got to do is fix the immigration problem, right?

One problem. I don't have any justification for believing that yet, and I really don't have the facts on my side to go after my congresswoman with in an effort to achieve change.

So, please substantiate your claims and the broad generalizing scope in which you have made them, so that I can defend this point with more than "I don't wanna hear _____". Do that convincingly and I swear on pain of death that I will hound my congresswoman until I either get arrested or get her to sit down and hear your point.

Until these claims are substantiated however, I've really got no choice but to go on the data that I do have.

For your benefit, I have taken my data from several sources which fiercely oppose illegal immigration and NONE from any source overtly appearing to be pro-illegal immigration.

www.newsmax.com...

As to the "hard-working" claim, CIS notes: "The proportion of immigrant-headed households using at least one major welfare program is 24.5 percent

3 out of 4 illegal immigrant FAMILIES are not mooching as you generalized (keep in mind that we're talking families of more than one individual, because while every individual in the family may be helped, the amount of aid rendered does not go up 100% for every additional person in the family).
Then you also must consider that estimates of illegal immigration range from 12 to 30 million versus 300 million Americans. 30 million people at 25% participation would be 7.5 million illegals on welfare. 300 million at a rate of 16% is 48 million legals on welfare. The ratio of legals to illegals on welfare is more greater than 6 to 1. 85% of our welfare problem has nothing to do with illegals. (incidentally, that's making the assumption that it is infact a problem- I'm sure progressives might have a bone to pick with even that).


Now if you read that article, you will probably see it quoted that 17% of the Federal prison population is illegal. That seems very unlikely considering that almost exactly 17% of federal prisoners, according to the Bureau of Prisons, even have Mexican citizenship, and only 27.9% have foreign citizenship at all. It is extremely suspicious that Newsmax cited the number of illegals in federal prisons being so close to the number of Mexican nationals in federal prisons; Newmax apparently does not know that you retain your foreign citizenship when you enter the US legally.

In fact, the very same Newsmax article concedes that the DOJ estimates that there are 270,000 illegals incarcerated in the US (incidentally, you can tell that we're not just talking federal now because that's larger than the federal prison population). There are over 2.2 million people incarcerated in the United States, making illegals 10% at best.

So we're looking about 10% of all incarcerations (note, that is not 10% of all crimes. The number of violent crimes committed in any 2 years of the past decade is greater than the number of people incarcerated in any given 1 year. The number of felonies reported in a given YEAR is more than 10 times the prison population, and only 15% of the federal prison population is serving less than 3 years. Crime stats

Thus we see that to attempt to project a drop in crime based on illegal immigrant incarceration is a risky proposition in that it assumes that a relatively small sample of criminals is representative fo the total criminal population (not necessarily a safe assumption, especially in the age of profiling).


So far the data at hand demonstrates that illegal immigration is not the key to our crime problem and not the reason that welfare programs exist.

I'm not a fan of illegal immigration, but let's get real. The primary problem with illegal immigration is that the ability of employers to exploit them depresses wages, and there is more than one logical way to solve that problem. Yes, we could just shut down the border, or we could give these people documents so that their employers lacked that extra leverage over them. Just a thought.

America's problems are REAL problems that demand REAL answers. "Blame the new guy" is not an answer.

There are fundamental economic problems facing us both in terms of total wealth and distribution of wealth and the answer, if there is one to be had, is not going to be simple.

There is something wrong either with our society or our laws, because we are incarcerating more people than anyone else in the world with as many prisoners as anyone else plus 1/3. It's going to take more than immigration reform to fix that. It might sound strange, but there actually isn't enough crime in Juarez or TJ for spill-over to be a plausible explanation!

And that leech on your wallet? It's not Mexican. Our politicians have lost it. The Democrats are the closest thing to a party of fiscal responsibility we have right now (excepting for the moment the smaller parties who we inexplicably trust less than the ones we already know to be broken).

So, care to shore up your claim?


Edit to add: I cannot believe I said "more greater" lol. No I'm not an illegal immigrant, I just meant to delete "more" and use "greater instead" but didn't backspace apparently. Everyone point and laugh.

[edit on 29-11-2006 by The Vagabond]

Illegal immigrants murder more Americans than soldiers killed in Iraq.

www.worldnetdaily.com...

Twelve Americans are murdered every day by illegal aliens, according to statistics released by Rep. Steve King, R-Iowa. If those numbers are correct, it translates to 4,380 Americans murdered annually by illegal aliens. That's 21,900 since Sept. 11, 2001.

Total U.S. troop deaths in Iraq as of last week were reported at 2,863. Total U.S. troop deaths in Afghanistan, Pakistan and Uzbekistan during the five years of the Afghan campaign are currently at 289, according to the Department of Defense.

Iraq is a problem, but illegal immigrants are not? For those of you wanting our troops pulled out of Iraq, would you be in favor of them protecting our borders against illegals?

Originally posted by RRconservative
Illegal immigrants murder more Americans than soldiers killed in Iraq.

Life on its own kills more people that soldiers in iraq. The death rate amoung US soldiers in the WOT is lower than amoung their civilian cohort. So any comparisions like that are irrelevent.

www.worldnetdaily.com...

World Nut Daily simply makes crap up half the time. They are not a useful news source.
Even according to them:

no federal statistics are kept on murders or any other crimes committed by illegal aliens

IOW, its all baloney.

the vagabond
It is extremely suspicious that Newsmax cited the number of illegals in federal prisons being so close to the number of Mexican nationals in federal prisons;

Dam, thats a good catch.

[edit on 28-11-2006 by Nygdan]

Nygdan, i thought World Nut Daily was reliable...

i mean, with reliable news experts on staff like the veteran journalist chuck norris, why wouldn't we trust them?



i can't keep a straight face...

yeah, they're way off the deep end, and saying that they fabricate half the time is being generous

That WND article is perhaps the biggest pile of dung I have ever seen - and you know what they say about big piles of dung: they can't support their own weight. Let's go through it step by step and examine what's being passed off as news.

The first source referenced by WND to back up its claim about immigrant murderers links to another WND article! The second source links to ANOTHER WND article. Strong like rock!

The next bit of 'proof' offered up to the reader is YET ANOTHER WND ARTICLE that manages to reference the study without providing it, while re-using copy from an earlier article. The study, incidentally, was on the number of accidents caused by unliscensed/improperly liscensed drivers. It didn't even try to address the demographics represented in the category 'unliscensed driver' because there are no reliable statistics to support any worthwhile conclusion! Are you getting this? They're using a study on A to prove a point about B, because no study on B has been done. Do you get it, cause I sure don't...

Read this paragraph...

www.wnd.com...

A report by the AAA Foundation for Traffic Study found 20 percent of fatal accidents involve at least one driver who lacks a valid license. In California, another study showed that those who have never held a valid license are about five times more likely to be involved in a fatal road accident than licensed drivers.

This is the worst sort of journalism. They lend their crap an (albeit flimsy) aura of legitimacy by throwing out irrelevant studies and bogus statistics.

While the Census Bureau estimates there are 9 million illegal aliens living in the U.S., other sources put the figure closer to 20 million. Running parallel to those estimates are the best guesses on the number of unlicensed motorists – 17 million.

So, 'the Census Bureau estimates' morphs into 'unnamed sources' (probably WND itself, again) and 'best guesses' - IOW, total nonsense!

This is why nobody around here takes WND seriously! This is why no thinking person should ever take what they say at face value, ever. When they stop acting like this, I'll take them more seriously, but as it is they're a joke, a pathetic, but DANGEROUS joke. As if people in this country aren't having a hard enough time getting accurate information...

:shk:

Linking to a WND article to corroborate some wild nonsense from another WND article is just the pinnacle of wild nonsense - the ultimate in nonsense technology.

It goes on...

A WND statistical study of police reports of dozens of such checkpoints around the country show that close to 10 percent of drivers stopped are either unlicensed or have suspended licenses.

Once again, they're using themselves as a source. How many times is that? I've lost count...

Just about every article I've read from there is in the same vein. 'It's true because we say it is.' Utter crap.

It would be much easier to discuss the issue of immigration if it weren't for all the mud stirred up by folks like WND.

[edit on 29-11-2006 by WyrdeOne]

[edit on 29-11-2006 by WyrdeOne]

Originally posted by Nygdan

Originally posted by jsobecky

I think that the situation in France disproves that to a large degree:

France certainly hasn't been destroyed by its immigrants. And, again, if anything, the situation in france shows that when you ostracize, despise, and abuse immigrants, they're going to become as violent and depraved as people think they are. France has a horrible ability to assimilate immigrants, and to adapt the french culture to the immigrants culture, thankfully, the US has a great ability to absord new immigrant populations and get along with them.

France has had many problems with it's legal immigrants. The US does not have the problem of hating or ostracizing legal immigrants. They tend to welcome and absorb them. It's when they come into this country illegally that people resent them.

Remember the riots and the burning of the suburbs of Paris. The fact that the story has slipped to the back burner does not mean it has been solved.

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
Anyway, in response to jsobecky - you're making a pair of flawed assumptions - hispanics are not a monolithic group that toes any sort of ideological or political line, and neither are the rest of the people in the country automatically at each others' throats because they don't share a skin color.

White people have had a majority in this country for quite some time now, and we can't seem to agree on much of anything.

Do you understand my point?

Well, I was responding to your assumption that raw percentages are the factor that determines influence.

Take your statement to its conclusion. Every Mexican moves here and now constitute 40% of the population. Are our systems designed to handle that many new participants? Even if they were all educated, law-abiding white Europeans that spoke perfect English the systems would burst. Now think about the composition of the illegal immigrant population. The systems must change to benefit them, or else society changes in ways we haven't even thought about.

And remember, Mexicans are not the only nationality that are sneaking across the border.

Well since this is not the only time this kind of topic has been put up I will say it again because it is the best solution thus far:

ASSIMILIATE MEXICO! Force the hand of the Mexican government and assimilate Mexico into the USA and have one giant USA. If they want to come here so bad OK! You can now pay the taxes, carry the same burdens, dish out like the rest of the USA does and each time someone tries to leech the system you get the boot like the rest of us. If they want to be here so darn bad let us simply open the door by annexing Mexico. If they hate the idea: TO BAD! YOUR ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION HAS SHOWN OTHERWISE!

Solve the problems that cause people to immigrate: wipe out the corporate farms that hire them, wipe out the factories that hire them, wipe out the groups who hire them. Create jobs for all by making the system more realistic: instead of massive corporate farms that destroy the Earth push for family farms and ranches, get more farmers out there! That is one example that hurt the employed, the removal of farmers. Get more education going, teach them English #1 Spanish #2 whether they like it or not in the USA and push things into Mexico that are in English only so they learn the language.

People are afraid of each other right now because of what a few corporations, elitists, fascists and politicians have done not just to South Americans and Central Americans but to North Americans as well. They are breeding fear and hatred amoungst the populations so they will NOT unite. Think of what would happen to the greedy and corrupt politicians if all of North, Central and South America united? The people would mop the floor with them. The last thing we need right now is fear of each other, we need to be more united.

By the way to those who fear immigrants: Your family is an immigrant family any way you look at it! Even the Native Americans immigrated from somewhere else! WE ARE ALL IMMIGRANTS FOR PEATS SAKE! Differance: Europeans immigrated and killed almost 80% of the Native American population OUTRIGHT, WILLINGLY AND KNOWLEDGABLY! The Mexicans have not... They may be a pain in the rear at times but they have killed no one.

If you scared of Atzlan and the other racist groups think of how blacks must feal living in the deep south with a KKK guy down the street. This is something we live with, to solve it: GO AFTER THEM AND REVEAL THEM FOR WHO THEY TRUELY ARE SO PEOPLE WILL NO LONGER SUPPORT THEM!

The only thing these groups have is fear, nothing but. So long as people keep getting scared and lashing out it will fuel their fires and get more Mexicans on their side, want to solve it? Go find a Mexican famly this Christmas and give them a ham or turkey and show them that your not the boogyman these groups would have them believe!

If the left-leaning main stream media did there job, we wouldn't have to go to other sources like ATS, Drudge Report, and World Net Daily, and radio programs like Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity.

The media stream media is so biased that you have to go to other sources.

Its a sad moment for mainstream media, when you have to go to the Drudge Report or World Net Daily to get breaking news.

If the KKK revived, then they would eliminate some aliens. Because the believe in "America for Americans." And possibly scare some aliens from ever crossing the border.

[edit on 29-11-2006 by wildcat]

Originally posted by wildcat
Because the believe in "America for Americans."

They're racist morons.

Originally posted by jsobecky
France has had many problems with it's legal immigrants. The US does not have the problem of hating or ostracizing legal immigrants. They tend to welcome and absorb them. It's when they come into this country illegally that people resent them.

But hte point is, look at what the resentment gives you. It doesn't get rid of them, it doesn't solve the illegal problem, it just creates a new, far worse, problem.

Remember the riots and the burning of the suburbs of Paris. The fact that the story has slipped to the back burner does not mean it has been solved.

And as you point out, those were largely legal immigrants. The real issue with immigrants isn't whether they are here legally or not. Illegal Immigration, iow, just isn't much of a problem.

Originally posted by wildcat
If the KKK revived, then they would eliminate some aliens. Because the believe in "America for Americans." And possibly scare some aliens from ever crossing the border.

[edit on 29-11-2006 by wildcat]

Well then start leaving. Let them kick you out of the United States, and kick themselves out. Let the real Americans have their own land at least...

Originally posted by RRconservative
Its a sad moment for mainstream media, when you have to go to the Drudge Report or World Net Daily to get breaking news.

You mean broken news, not breaking. "Breaking News" as I understand it, is news that is occuring in real time. 90% of the news that has been reported and discussed in this thread never happened (especially the headline of this thread) and therefore is not "breaking".

The MSM might be storing its head in a warm, dry place, but at least they put a little effort into the fictions that they construct.

Originally posted by wildcat
If the KKK revived, then they would eliminate some aliens. Because the believe in "America for Americans." And possibly scare some aliens from ever crossing the border.

That's not true at all. They believe in "Amerika" for Whites. Even though this country is a home of people from all races (stolen from another race as well), the KKK trash believes it should be theirs for some reason.

Essentially all of us here were "aliens" at one time including members of the KKK.

Originally posted by RRconservative
If the left-leaning main stream media did there job, we wouldn't have to go to other sources like ATS, Drudge Report, and World Net Daily, and radio programs like Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity.

The media stream media is so biased that you have to go to other sources.

Its a sad moment for mainstream media, when you have to go to the Drudge Report or World Net Daily to get breaking news.

world net daily is mostly made up news

drudge isn't reliable or consistent

ATS is maybe a decent hub, but you have to take this site with a grain of salt some times

limbaugh... well, mediamatters.org takes care of what he says

and hannity?
same goes for him

the main stream media is biased towards only 1 thing, WHAT MAKES THEM MONEY

there is actually no evidence of a liberal media bias
if you can give me some credible evidence that there was a substantial liberal bias, i will believe you

Originally posted by ZeddicusZulZorander

Originally posted by wildcat
If the KKK revived, then they would eliminate some aliens. Because the believe in "America for Americans." And possibly scare some aliens from ever crossing the border.

That's not true at all. They believe in "Amerika" for Whites. Even though this country is a home of people from all races (stolen from another race as well), the KKK trash believes it should be theirs for some reason.

Essentially all of us here were "aliens" at one time including members of the KKK.

Blacks weren't true Americans because they were brought here for slavery. True Americans are the original Americans (like me) who came here in the genesis of our nation.

[edit on 29-11-2006 by wildcat]

That's a laugh.

You must be really old.

What an honor it is to meet an original American.

What you're saying, in essence, is that I'm not a real American because my ancestors weren't on the first handful of boats. That's just nonsense.

I hope there aren't very many people who feel the way you do.

Go to your nearest Native American reserve and dare to utter those words in public there. To them, you are an alien. I repeat.... You are an Alien!!

Originally posted by wildcat
True Americans are the original Americans (like me) who came here in the genesis of our nation.

You're not a True American.