Wanna know what future Islam has in store for the west? Look to France for the answer...

In France there are 751 zones (at last count) that are labeled as Zones Urbaines Sensibles or "Sensitive Urban Zones" which are areas in France that the French government does not control. According to a 2004 estimate, nearly 5 million people, most of whom are immigrants who are largely muslim, live in these areas. In my view, France has become the failed Liberal "bring your culture and nevermind ours" experiment!

This is precisely what happens when immigrants do not assimilate the customs of their addoptive host country and another example of why Islam, as an intolerant ideology, is incompatible with western constitutional democracy.

Freedom_for_sum

I would like to add that the problems that the french are facing are more complicated than just a ""bring your culture and nevermind ours" experiment! "

While i agree that has a lot to do with it, you have to remember that the french are pretty racist and have been treating these people really bad. Combine that with a lack of decisiveness from the french government to solve any of the problems they are facing and your looking at what any race color or group of people would do in this situation.

I liken this to what we went through in america with the civil rights movement, the difference is that African Americans were organized better, they also were mostly non-violent. Again though the difference is that white Americans would have been violent right back where as the white french won't be.

The most dangerous thing about this situation is that you could see a group of radical right wing young frenchmen rise up to power that advocates violence against any and all muslims. That in my opinion is the worst case scenario from this situation.


[edit on 11/25/2006 by JackJuice]

i'm pretty sure most of the problems stem from the fact that the nation of france was imperialistic in relation to the nation(s) of origin of the muslims

Thanks for the thoughts JackJuice.

I'm not sure that our civil rights experience is a good comparison because Africans weren't immigrating here on their own. They we're being sold by their own people (tribes) and imported as slaves. A completely whole set of different, yet equally complicated, issues.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
i'm pretty sure most of the problems stem from the fact that the nation of france was imperialistic in relation to the nation(s) of origin of the muslims

I'm not sure what you mean. Are you saying that France attempted to extend rule or authority over Muslim countries? What does this have to do with immigrants in France today? Could you please correlate?

Originally posted by Freedom_for_sum

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
i'm pretty sure most of the problems stem from the fact that the nation of france was imperialistic in relation to the nation(s) of origin of the muslims

I'm not sure what you mean. Are you saying that France attempted to extend rule or authority over Muslim countries? What does this have to do with immigrants in France today? Could you please correlate?

Well, they did. Alot of the French Empire was in Muslim territories. Hence why they have a large, North African immigrant population.

Apart from that, don't have much to add at present....

Originally posted by Freedom_for_sum
In France there are 751 zones (at last count) that are labeled as Zones Urbaines Sensibles or "Sensitive Urban Zones" which are areas in France that the French government does not control.

Where did you get that information that those areas are not areas not controlled by the French government?

So Islam, the ENTIRE religon and it's people who follow it, have what exactly in store for the west? Issues with 2nd and 3rd generation children of immigrants ?

I fail to see the relevance of what you have stated in your opening post and the title of the thread.

The french are only dealing with what many other countries are dealing with also.

Originally posted by ArMaP
Where did you get that information that those areas are not areas not controlled by the French government?

Thanks for seeking clarification. I can see how I gave the impression that the areas fall under no "authority" when, in fact, that is not the case. The French government is the "authority" over those areas but they remain largely out of control as evidenced by last year's riots and the marauding "youths" respnsible for the recent destruction of property on the anniversity of the riots. The areas are considered "no go" aeas because of their lawless-ness

Here is a rather poignant article which highlights how presidential candidate Segolene Royal intends to "help" the situation.

Notable quotes:

The riots, largely by Muslim youth of Arab and African descent, released pent-up anger over decades of discrimination in jobs and housing and alienation from mainstream French society. Unemployment among youth in France's poor suburbs soars as high as 40 percent — more than four times the national average of 9 percent.

They are discriminated against because they refuse to assimilate.

She criticized the terms "native French" or "second generation immigrant" as discriminatory.

If they assimilated there would be no need to use any description other than "French".

Integrating France's minorities into the work force is "a question of survival," she said. "It is the main condition for reviving the economic machine."

An indication that this woman has no clue and, therefore, the problems will continue.

Royal urged the creation of agencies in poor neighborhoods to help young people start up businesses. The startups would enjoy subsidies of €2,000-10,000 (US$2,600-13,000), financed by regional governments.

Yeah!! Appease them with money and watch the problem disappear. As Borat would say: "This NOT!! will work for good!!"

Originally posted by Freedom_for_sum
If they assimilated there would be no need to use any description other than "French".

That is the problem with those who were born already in the country to where their parents migrated to.

They are not part of the culture of the countries of origin of their parents and they are not a part of the culture of the country where they live.

If you saw the images of the French riots last year, you could see that most of the people that were participating in them looked more like followers of "Rap Culture", if such thing exists, than any other culture.

That is the "no future" type of life, when they see no reason to live by the system's rules because they do not see that the system that makes those rules has a future for them.

The fact that the problems in France stem from discrimination, poor government funding in inner-city areas, lack of jobs and employment, and racism has nothing to do with Islam.

A title such as "Wanna know what future racism has in store for the west? Look to France for the answer... " would fit your thread better.

Originally posted by Freedom_for_sum
Yeah!! Appease them with money and watch the problem disappear. As Borat would say: "This NOT!! will work for good!!"

Where do you get your information, do you live in France? Don't tell me that you don't have such problems in your country.

Originally posted by Freedom_for_sum
I'm not sure what you mean. Are you saying that France attempted to extend rule or authority over Muslim countries? What does this have to do with immigrants in France today? Could you please correlate?

France was involved in imperialism in Algeria, for one, a country that has many Muslims. The French weren't very nice while they were there, either, so there may be some animosity between them.

I offer this as an example that illustrates the problem:

In the US, there have been cases where companies have been sued, by Muslim employees, because there was no prayer room on the premises. Muslims need to pray 5 times a day and these employees wanted to make their employer provide rooms where they can accomplish this. And they (employees) won!!

This is a perfect example because these Muslims refuse to assimilate and figure out a way to fulfill their prayer requirements without imposing their beliefs on others. So now, as an employer of a small company, I avoid hiring Muslim applicants (which is easy to do) because I don't want to incur the costs of building a prayer room or to pay employees to pray. I need efficient employees who are willing to work when they're at work and pray on their own time and place that doesn't effect me or other employees. In addition, I take great exception to having religion, especially Islam, imposed on me.

This also provides the example that describes the road the US is on: France is just more miles (or kilometers as it were) ahead!!

[edit on 25-11-2006 by Freedom_for_sum]

Originally posted by DragonsDemesne
France was involved in imperialism in Algeria, for one, a country that has many Muslims. The French weren't very nice while they were there, either, so there may be some animosity between them.

....and apparently, the Algerian population is fairly large in France. Why?!? I don't understand how France's "imperialism" in the past has anything to do with immigrants refusing to assimilate. In fact, it doesn't.

This assimilation problem is happening all over: the US, Canada, UK, Australia, ETC. France just happens to be further along because they have the largest per capita Muslim immigrant population. It should be no coincidence as to why they're having these problems.

Originally posted by Freedom_for_sum

Originally posted by DragonsDemesne
France was involved in imperialism in Algeria, for one, a country that has many Muslims. The French weren't very nice while they were there, either, so there may be some animosity between them.

....and apparently, the Algerian population is fairly large in France. Why?!? I don't understand how France's "imperialism" in the past has anything to do with immigrants refusing to assimilate. In fact, it doesn't.

This assimilation problem is happening all over: the US, Canada, UK, Australia, ETC. France just happens to be further along because they have the largest per capita Muslim immigrant population. It should be no coincidence as to why they're having these problems.

muslim immigrant?
i know muslims from all over

muslim immigrants are quite the diverse group
i have friends that fit that group from all over

indonesia, palestine, the ivory coast, algeria, egypt, iran

that isn't one defiant group
so, before you throw out that term, please realize that it isn't some devious homogenous group

Originally posted by Freedom_for_sum
....and apparently, the Algerian population is fairly large in France. Why?!? I don't understand how France's "imperialism" in the past has anything to do with immigrants refusing to assimilate. In fact, it doesn't.

Do you live or have lived in a country that had colonies?

If you do, or did, then you may know what it was like when the colonies existed, and how people from there were treated, and how those people showed their feelings about the situation when their country became independent from the colonizing country.

I live in a country that was the last European country to loose its colonies, Portugal. Until 1975 we had Angola, Cabo Verde, Guiné, Moçambique, São Tomé e Principe and Timor. The people from those countries were treated as second class citizens, and they could do nothing about it.

When they became independent some people took revenge on the Portuguese that were leaving the country, but the majority just let them go.

Living in a newly independent country, without any means of keeping their economy working (because, being a colony they were not prepared to function independently, it was one of the ways of keeping them under control), most people needed to immigrate to another, richer country.

What country could they immigrate to, preferably a country where they spoke the same language? The former colonizing country.

Many people came to Portugal in those first years of independence, and today we have some areas that are starting to have the same problems as those in France, we even had some cars burned here too some time ago.

But the ones that create those problems are not the "un-assimilated immigrants", its the children of the second or third wave of immigrants that are left without a cultural background from their father's homeland and do not feel like being a part of the country where they were born, because people look to them and see them as immigrants, when they were born in the same country.

And in Portugal, those "sensitive urban zones" are not full of Muslims, because the countries from where their fathers came were not Muslim countries, but the problems they have and the problems they create are the same as those in France.

This assimilation problem is happening all over: the US, Canada, UK, Australia, ETC. France just happens to be further along because they have the largest per capita Muslim immigrant population. It should be no coincidence as to why they're having these problems.

The first assimilation problem in what is now the United States was one of the biggest immigration problems ever.

In that case the immigrants forced the native owners of the land to be assimilated.

And I don't think that they had many Muslims among those immigrants...


So, I think this has nothing to do with the fact of being Muslim or not, its just a consequence of mass migrations.

I make it a point to watch French news at least twice a week nowadays and it seems that there is another group starting to cause a ruckus at Soccer Games. Neo Nazi's primarily, but it shows me that the situation over there is continually being stoked by certain elements that get off on this so-called "Clash of Cultures" BS we keep hearing about.

Originally posted by Freedom_for_sum
In France there are 751 zones (at last count) that are labeled as Zones Urbaines Sensibles or "Sensitive Urban Zones" which are areas in France that the French government does not control.

Bullsh1t...does USA control blacks? the 1992 'rebellion' may prove otherwise...what nonsense.