Is it possible that the Dyna Soar X-20 is part of USAF Space Operations

I was wondering how much was known about the X-20 rocket lauched or high altitude lauched US Space Plane. Is it possible that these or upgraded versions are used even today by the USAF or Nasa. In the links below the Russians have it listed as a US Space craft and Wikipedia depicts a very arousing concept of a satellite or weapon type payload or booster attachment. And that thing looks infinitely easier to glide down than that falling brick called the shuttle and its supposed lifting body. Lots of US military/Nasa rocket launches over the years and Im sure they all werent just sat's. I believe these to be the US's first space plane contingent and doubt it would have been scrapped while the same concept and grossly more expensive shuttle is still being used. Anyways any more info or insights short of flames welcome.
en.wikipedia.org...
www.airwar.ru...
www.aerospaceguide.net...

Rocket launches aren't exactly subtle. I think it would have been noticed if it were in use. Classified cargo is one thing, but to have a space plane launched in secret would be rather difficult, if not impossible in my opinion.

Why does space ship one remind me of that craft?

en.wikipedia.org...

Originally posted by jra
Rocket launches aren't exactly subtle. I think it would have been noticed if it were in use. Classified cargo is one thing, but to have a space plane launched in secret would be rather difficult, if not impossible in my opinion.

Yeah thats the only thing I guess unless they have Titan III or IV launch facilities in other more isolated locations say like the DOE/USAF Nevada complex's. The article linked below says only three such real facilities are in the US. With Vandenberg being most secretitive but not enough to cover up the X-20 being rocket launched over multiple times. However its stealth type characteristics in photos look like something a rocket booster or other attachment for high altitude Mothership air lauching into space could achive as well. I know Im stabbing here and its more I wish than actually know at this stage. The principal does look sound and quite proven though.
www.globalsecurity.org...

I'll echo what jra said about a classified space plane being a near-insurmountable challenge to keep secret for very long. In order to get any practical use out of it you wouldn't need to fly it for only special "black ops" missions: you'd need to fly it for training purposes as well. That adds up to a very respectable number of launches every year, between training and operational missions, and I'm inclined to think that someone would have noticed by now. Think about it: it isn't just the launches themselves, it is building the rockets - if the fly, say, a dozen launches a year, people building those rockets would know that there are a dozen launch attempts in a year that no one hears about (and even NRO launches are known well in advance!) - and moving the rockets, be it by truck or barge or cargo plane.

And, while I'm certainly no expert in the field, I will hazzard a guess that air-launching the 5-6 ton Dyna-Soar would require the mother of all mother ships, not to mention one HUGE air-start booster stage, given that it was designed to be launched by a Titan III and all.

You can't really keep a launch secret. Someone will see it or track it on radar. Vandenberg launches are often visible from Phoenix , Arizona, depending on the trajectory.

There are also hobbyists who enjoy following the progress of each space mission and photographing the launch, even when the launch time is not announced (as in the case of most NRO payloads). Other people track and photograph spacecraft in orbit, including spy satellites. These are just civilians having a little fun. Imagine what foreign governmenrts can do. Also, I think a number of other governments might protest a program that suggests militarization of space beyond reconnaissance and communicatins satellites.

Theretically, it might be possible! However, as others have said, Where would you launch it? Rockets are very loud, so they aren't easy to hide.

For the sake of discussion, I wish to propose a possible secret launch site: The Green River Complex in Utah!

This remote location in Utah was origionally built by the Army as a launch site for missiles headed for White Sands in New Mexico. Being that the place was built to launch missiles, it wouldn't take much to make it suitable for a spacecraft launce.

However, I have no evidence to suggest that the site is even operational.

Just throwing out a though for disussion!

Tim

The Green River Complex is right next to Highway 70 and a few miles from the town of Green River.

I have explored the Green River Complex. The last time I looked, it was not being used for anything. It is definitely not what one might consider a truly "remote" site.

I think the blackstar project could possibly be related to the X-20 Dyna-Soar and the XB-70 Super Valkeryie.

Blackstar

I know I read some where that the Air Force openly considered using the XB-70 to launch the Dyna-Soar but the plan was reportedly shelved but who knows. And I know it has been recently reported that the Blackstar has been terminated but again who can be sure?



[edit on 22-11-2006 by danwild6]

Only way the US can operate a "secret" space fleet is by approval of Russia, EU, China and a few others, if the launhes were not approved or "legitimate" someone would release it to news, just to cause trouble...

Originally posted by northwolf
Only way the US can operate a "secret" space fleet is by approval of Russia, EU, China and a few others, if the launhes were not approved or "legitimate" someone would release it to news, just to cause trouble...

How do you fugure that? Did we need the Soviet's permission to land on the moon? As far as legitimate authority, legally I believe all ballistic missile launches must be made public. Laws governing the positioning and ownership of satellites I'm not so sure. As far someone making trouble if by that you mean an insider leaking info what makes you sure that you wouldn't be sitting here saying that its not possible because the EU or any other organization doesn't wish it. He or she would undoubtedly be written of as a hack or quack and be paid little attention too outside the conspiracy community.

If you mean by making trouble a foreign government were to learn of the existance of America's secret space force. I'd say so what or thats great but I doubt there would be anything any nation could do to force our hand into kneeling before the international community.

The "Blackstar" is fictional, so I wouldn't drag it into this discussion. Of course, now that I think about it, since we are debating a fictional space fleet, I guess anything is fair game.

Why not launch from areas like Brazil or other equatorial zones outside of the US?

Originally posted by northwolf
Only way the US can operate a "secret" space fleet is by approval of Russia, EU, China and a few others...

I don't know what you mean by "approval" but trust me there is enough blackmail material to go around. If the US had/has a secret space program and another nation wanted to leak it they can but consider the consequences. Then there's the whole bit about appearing weak and unprepared, it's why the Soviets didn't publicly admit their country was being overflow by a secret US plane, until they could shoot it down that is.

Yeah Im guessing the Dyna-Soar program may have been too expensive to openly use and or hide(although a secret launch location cant be ruled out entirely) plus the officials stated no real purpose for the program or for orbital manned combat operations. Which sounds kind of ignorant if you cant see even in 1963 how having eyes and ears and hands in space on an Air Superiority level is supreme. Sound idea and far sighted if you ask me. Those things would have been the real star wars and more IMO. Now we send up a oversized Cinder Block with wings on a few huge rockets twice a year to a modernized Skylab type space station and call that our USAF Space program.The X-20 was a Amazing craft and idea that I guess never was.

WestPoint
If you do a substantial number of space launches without notification, it will be picked up air defence and university systems. That will create a flow of rumours among the military and intelligence communities all over the world... and it just doesn't stay secret.

You refered to Sr-71 U-2 flights over the USSR, It was fairly well known around here that NATO was going high and/or fast over western Russia. No official info was released, but soldiers talk and info gets around... It too big issue to stay quiet for a long time. IMO

Had it progressed, the Dyna-Soar project could have given the US considerable information which would have been invaluable for the later Space Shuttle. Whether it would ever have been used operationally as a weapons system / reconnaissance platform is another matter, particularly when you consider the implications of weapons in orbit and the rapid advances that reconnaissance satellites made once they were in service.

Nevertheless, it was an interesting project and ahead of its time.

www.spyflight.co.uk...

Heimdall

[edit on 23-11-2006 by Heimdall]

Originally posted by northwolf
If you do a substantial number of space launches without notification, it will be picked up air defence and university systems. That will create a flow of rumours among the military and intelligence communities all over the world... and it just doesn't stay secret.

I don't think that is necessarily the case. If we were launching a top secret space plane then it wouldn't stay up for probably no more than one or two orbits. And of course your also assuming that these craft could even be picked up by air defense and university systems which might not be the case.

It's possible that few amout of orbital ops could go unnoticed, but continous operations would sooner than later show up somewhere.. Lets say that test flight may have been done, anything other is highly unlikely. USA is not the onlyone with super-hightech sigint sytems knowhow

danwild6, I think you're misunderstanding exactly what would cause an operational X-20 variant to be detected while in service. It isn't the time on orbit that would be an issue - if the USAF wanted to "stealth" such a craft against visual and radar detection, they probably could do a pretty good job of it.

The problem comes in launching the craft. Whether ground-launched or air-launched, I think we're all agreed that you need a pretty goodly sized rocket to get a 5-6 ton Dyna-Soar up to orbital velocity. The Early Warning Satellites used by the US (and presumably the Russians and Chinese) use an infrared sensor to detect the heat plume from a rocket launch. Night or day, at sea level (for an SLBM) or at 40,000 feet + for an air-launched X-20, those satellites will pick up the launch.

IMHO, there really isn't any getting around one fact: you can't hide a rocket launch, not from anyone with even a marginally effective early warning system.