god controlled evolution

is it possible that maybe god created evolution, cuz im a christian but i dont personally believe in creationism, i believe that god created the first organism and then created evolution so do you guys think that could be possible

maybe a being we refer to as god created a system to control life which we would refer to as evolution, much like we would create a computer program to run things behind the scenes on a computer.

i must state though, i am an athiest and i do believe in evolution to a degree but i believe all religions are wrong, why you ask? because they are man made, simple as that.

this doesnt mean there cant be a creator, it just means this being if it did exist is not on a level ANY of us could comprehend and "worshiping" it through religion seems silly to me, my best example would be....say we create a world on a sims game, imagine different factions worshiping you and even fighting over the best way to worship you within that world, seems pointless doesnt it? thats how i see religion.

hmmm thats pretty interesting, and a way i havent looked at religion yet

Originally posted by denynothing
is it possible that maybe god created evolution, cuz im a christian but i dont personally believe in creationism, i believe that god created the first organism and then created evolution so do you guys think that could be possible

No, evolution is impossible. Hydrogen doesn't turn into people if you wait long enough

im not going to be mean to you but i said god created evolution not hydrogen

Originally posted by thesaints2012
maybe a being we refer to as god created a system to control life which we would refer to as evolution, much like we would create a computer program to run things behind the scenes on a computer.

i must state though, i am an athiest and i do believe in evolution to a degree but i believe all religions are wrong, why you ask? because they are man made, simple as that.

this doesnt mean there cant be a creator, it just means this being if it did exist is not on a level ANY of us could comprehend and "worshiping" it through religion seems silly to me, my best example would be....say we create a world on a sims game, imagine different factions worshiping you and even fighting over the best way to worship you within that world, seems pointless doesnt it? thats how i see religion.

You have confused me here. You state that all religions are false because they are made or created by men. You then go on to describe that "IF" there was a creator he, she or it would be like "this and that, but not like this or that.....yadda, yadda, yadda......"

So your view is also in error because it was created by you, a mere human.

Originally posted by denynothing
is it possible that maybe god created evolution, cuz im a christian but i dont personally believe in creationism, i believe that god created the first organism and then created evolution so do you guys think that could be possible

I mean no offense but your "what if" was given no deep thought.

Let's say that God created or started evolution. We would then have a period of "sub-humans", a class of reptilian/mammal perhaps, what then of that "thing" when it dies? Does it have a soul that needs to be redeemed from sin? Afterall God took on flesh to save mankind from sin, does this mean that the "sub-human" had no sin? Or perhaps it has no chance at heaven?

Think about this.....in your view God is powerful enough to start life with a super single cell "thingy" that had to mutate over and over until man came from those mutations but God is not powerful enough to just speak a full grown man into creation??

Before you answer think about all the information that had to be written into the "simple single cell" ? It had to know when and when not to mutate, it had an innate knowledge of how to give birth, to feed, communicate, for flight and most important, knowledge. Yet God is not able to just create an already full grown whale, orange tree, eagle or human?

Originally posted by denynothing
im not going to be mean to you but i said god created evolution not hydrogen

Yes you did. You said God created the first organism........ Sorry.....Carry on.

Originally posted by UnrealZA

Originally posted by denynothing
is it possible that maybe god created evolution, cuz im a christian but i dont personally believe in creationism, i believe that god created the first organism and then created evolution so do you guys think that could be possible

I mean no offense but your "what if" was given no deep thought.

Let's say that God created or started evolution. We would then have a period of "sub-humans", a class of reptilian/mammal perhaps, what then of that "thing" when it dies? Does it have a soul that needs to be redeemed from sin? Afterall God took on flesh to save mankind from sin, does this mean that the "sub-human" had no sin? Or perhaps it has no chance at heaven?

Think about this.....in your view God is powerful enough to start life with a super single cell "thingy" that had to mutate over and over until man came from those mutations but God is not powerful enough to just speak a full grown man into creation??

Before you answer think about all the information that had to be written into the "simple single cell" ? It had to know when and when not to mutate, it had an innate knowledge of how to give birth, to feed, communicate, for flight and most important, knowledge. Yet God is not able to just create an already full grown whale, orange tree, eagle or human?

ya i guess you have a point there, i never really thought that sub human state would have souls, i had just thought god decided when the organism would evolve into something more powerful

Originally posted by Sun Matrix

Originally posted by denynothing
im not going to be mean to you but i said god created evolution not hydrogen

Yes you did. You said God created the first organism........ Sorry.....Carry on.

yes the first organism as in a cell not a gas, a gas is a state of matter not a living thing unless my science is mistaken

personally, i believe in "divine evolution"

lemme 'splain.

i do NOT take the bible as a written word for word literal history. it is a story meant to deliver a message. the message is the important bit, not the words.

but, when human sat down to quantify his beliefs and write them down, he/she had to write it in such a way that made sense to the reader.

so, when the 'world was created in 6 days' is it not possible that "day" was used as a metephore for a given period of time not necessarily 24 hours?

ok, so day one, big bang, etc i do not personally recall the bible saying that the earth was created in 144 hours. for us to be so arrogant as to think we understand the passage of time to god is just insane

so, when the bible says that god created man in a day(instant?) maybe its just a metaphore for the millions of years it took for god to guide the evolution of man from single celled organisms up to what we are today?

why not just lay it out that way in the bible? because the bible was penned by man. man of the day wasnt able to accept that so in order to preserve the message, it was put into a framework that they could accept and understand.

so im more than willing to believe that evolution is the process from whence we came, but i dont think that 'it just happened'. much as i dont believe that god literally 'blew on some dirt and poof theres adam'.

thats just me. my opinion, and likely how ill explain it to my kids some day. for all you fundamentalists out there, dont worry, my kids will be even more screwed up in your mind when my wife and i share discussions with the kids.

she's a witch

Originally posted by Damocles



why not just lay it out that way in the bible? because the bible was penned by man. man of the day wasnt able to accept that so in order to preserve the message, it was put into a framework that they could accept and understand.

So man , the men of that day, were unable to "accept" that God took nillions of years to finally get to man? Is this because they were stupid or not as smart as we are today?

The same people who crafted irrigation, sewer systems for indoor plumbing and also the pyramids?? We can't explain today with 100% accuracy how they did some of the things they did. If one steps back and looks at Genesis and how and WHEN it was written they would, hopefully, know, grasp and see that Genesis is NOT a scientific book or technical essay on emerging life but rather it is a book written by a Hebrew to the Hebrew people, a people in slavery, a people who had forgotten their Lord and King. A people who had been under Egyptian influence, socially, politically and religiously for years and years and that religion told them that there are many gods and that the world came about from materials already present. Moses contradicted that belief system by telling the Hebrew people that there is only ONE God and that He created all things from no pre-exsistent matter.

sure, ok, but didnt these same people think that the world was flat? at the center of the entire universe? have any concept of a billion years? astrophysics?

its not a matter of base intelligence its a matter of exposure to the world. how many archeologists did the ancient hebrews have to be out looking for fossil evidence?

and lets face it...youre trying to get a relativly primative (dont get yer undies in a twist, honestly we're still pretty primative as well) people to follow you and live life by a new set of rules (polytheism vs monotheism. ) of course youre just going to simplify and say "i created it all last week" (figuratively speaking) when introducing a newer concept to a mass of people its much more impressive to say you did it in a day than to say you guided it over the course of 4 million years.

did each of the slaves that followed moses have a knowledge of math? could they count to 1000? much less understand a million?

believe as you will, ill not try to change your mind. thats not my right or desire. my post was to explain MY PERSONAL belief of the happenings of the origins of everything in relation to my belief in god and what i see of the physical world and historical evidence.

if you wish to believe that the old testament is word for word written history, cool.

but in the end does it really matter? isnt the message whats important?

in the end, if you and i both believe that god, by whatever means, created the universe and gave us the gift of life, and if we both also agree that he sent his only son to earth to save us....isnt that the important bit? does it really matter HOW it all happened as long as it DID happen?

[/rant]

Originally posted by UnrealZA

Originally posted by thesaints2012
maybe a being we refer to as god created a system to control life which we would refer to as evolution, much like we would create a computer program to run things behind the scenes on a computer.

i must state though, i am an athiest and i do believe in evolution to a degree but i believe all religions are wrong, why you ask? because they are man made, simple as that.

this doesnt mean there cant be a creator, it just means this being if it did exist is not on a level ANY of us could comprehend and "worshiping" it through religion seems silly to me, my best example would be....say we create a world on a sims game, imagine different factions worshiping you and even fighting over the best way to worship you within that world, seems pointless doesnt it? thats how i see religion.

You have confused me here. You state that all religions are false because they are made or created by men. You then go on to describe that "IF" there was a creator he, she or it would be like "this and that, but not like this or that.....yadda, yadda, yadda......"

So your view is also in error because it was created by you, a mere human.

no u misunderstood.

let me just say again i am athiest, so i dont believe in a creator in the first place.

anyway what i said was if there was a creator that created all this universe and everything in it, we as humans COULD NOT COMPREHEND IT, because it would be way past our level of understanding. so using religions to worship it and even fighting with each other over how best to worship it would be a futile exercise as we dont and wouldnt understand the true nature of this being.

i then used an example as best i could, i did not say what it would be like or not like, i just gave an example as best i could to show how vast the gulf would be between us and a being of that power.

Originally posted by Damocles
sure, ok, but didnt these same people think that the world was flat? at the center of the entire universe? have any concept of a billion years? astrophysics?

its not a matter of base intelligence its a matter of exposure to the world. how many archeologists did the ancient hebrews have to be out looking for fossil evidence?

and lets face it...youre trying to get a relativly primative (dont get yer undies in a twist, honestly we're still pretty primative as well) people to follow you and live life by a new set of rules (polytheism vs monotheism. ) of course youre just going to simplify and say "i created it all last week" (figuratively speaking) when introducing a newer concept to a mass of people its much more impressive to say you did it in a day than to say you guided it over the course of 4 million years.

did each of the slaves that followed moses have a knowledge of math? could they count to 1000? much less understand a million?

believe as you will, ill not try to change your mind. thats not my right or desire. my post was to explain MY PERSONAL belief of the happenings of the origins of everything in relation to my belief in god and what i see of the physical world and historical evidence.

if you wish to believe that the old testament is word for word written history, cool.

but in the end does it really matter? isnt the message whats important?

in the end, if you and i both believe that god, by whatever means, created the universe and gave us the gift of life, and if we both also agree that he sent his only son to earth to save us....isnt that the important bit? does it really matter HOW it all happened as long as it DID happen?

[/rant]

First, you are generalizing that "all people" held to the earth being flat. The Scriptures no where state this, in fact certain passages speak of the earth being round.

Nor does Scripture say that the earth is the center of the universe, in literal terms.

Also, why on earth would you want to "create" or "make up" such a Holy, Perfect and demanding God?? Think about it.

democles you made a lot of sense to me, that does sound more likely. since the 6 days couldve have been any amount of time.

Originally posted by thesaints2012

Originally posted by UnrealZA

Originally posted by thesaints2012
maybe a being we refer to as god created a system to control life which we would refer to as evolution, much like we would create a computer program to run things behind the scenes on a computer.

i must state though, i am an athiest and i do believe in evolution to a degree but i believe all religions are wrong, why you ask? because they are man made, simple as that.

this doesnt mean there cant be a creator, it just means this being if it did exist is not on a level ANY of us could comprehend and "worshiping" it through religion seems silly to me, my best example would be....say we create a world on a sims game, imagine different factions worshiping you and even fighting over the best way to worship you within that world, seems pointless doesnt it? thats how i see religion.

You have confused me here. You state that all religions are false because they are made or created by men. You then go on to describe that "IF" there was a creator he, she or it would be like "this and that, but not like this or that.....yadda, yadda, yadda......"

So your view is also in error because it was created by you, a mere human.

no u misunderstood.

let me just say again i am athiest, so i dont believe in a creator in the first place.

anyway what i said was if there was a creator that created all this universe and everything in it, we as humans COULD NOT COMPREHEND IT, because it would be way past our level of understanding. so using religions to worship it and even fighting with each other over how best to worship it would be a futile exercise as we dont and wouldnt understand the true nature of this being.

i then used an example as best i could, i did not say what it would be like or not like, i just gave an example as best i could to show how vast the gulf would be between us and a being of that power.

So, you state that "IF" there is a God that He would be beyond our comprehension? Yet you have enough insight in this to tell others about it......about how it is beyond our compression? I find that contradictory.

It's like stating, "I know nothing of the english language" while stating it in english. You're leaning more to the agnostic than the atheist yet to even state we can't know anything of or about God is contradictory for they do in fact know something of God...that He can't be known.

The Believer will state many times, "The Trinity is beyond our full comprehension but yet we do have a glimpse of the Triune God through His word, nature and attributes."

Your statement though claims that we can't know anything of or about God but how is it that YOU can comprehend that?

unreal im going to quote your posts in reverse order for a moment, apologies before hand.

first of all, save your first post, your whole contribution to this thread has been to pick apart the words i and saint have used in our posts.

for example:

Originally posted by UnrealZA
First, you are generalizing that "all people" held to the earth being flat. The Scriptures no where state this, in fact certain passages speak of the earth being round.

Nor does Scripture say that the earth is the center of the universe, in literal terms.

Also, why on earth would you want to "create" or "make up" such a Holy, Perfect and demanding God?? Think about it.

in that whole post you attack that? ok i guess in fairness i could have said that 'people, well, other than abraham, ishmael and zacariah, thoguht the world was flat"

why are you nitpicking so badly rather than taking the post as a whole and discussing the ideas we're presenting? its almost as though you single out little bits in an attempt to distract us. i guess that confuses me.
does the fact i disagree with the EXACT way you think offend you so desparatly?
i mean, im open minded...if you can show me proof im wrong, please present it for discussion. but you cant, there isnt any proof whatsoever that im wrong. ive looked. now thats not to say that i am RIGHT but no one can tell me im wrong. im willing to freely state i could in fact be dead wrong, but thats why its better to write your ideas on paper than to carve them in stone.


now as to your first post.

Originally posted by UnrealZA
I mean no offense but your "what if" was given no deep thought.

Let's say that God created or started evolution. We would then have a period of "sub-humans", a class of reptilian/mammal perhaps, what then of that "thing" when it dies? Does it have a soul that needs to be redeemed from sin? Afterall God took on flesh to save mankind from sin, does this mean that the "sub-human" had no sin? Or perhaps it has no chance at heaven?

Think about this.....in your view God is powerful enough to start life with a super single cell "thingy" that had to mutate over and over until man came from those mutations but God is not powerful enough to just speak a full grown man into creation??

Before you answer think about all the information that had to be written into the "simple single cell" ? It had to know when and when not to mutate, it had an innate knowledge of how to give birth, to feed, communicate, for flight and most important, knowledge. Yet God is not able to just create an already full grown whale, orange tree, eagle or human?

first part, i believe we gained our souls when we gained intelligence. when we gained the ability to talk to our god i believe we earned our souls. but thats only my opinion and im entitled to it.

for the last part, sure, i totally believe god COULD have just said "poof, yer adam" from dirt instantly. but there is more empiracal evidence that he did it slowly then there is that he did it instantly. is it a sin to be open minded?

and yet, after all of that, you totally just ignore this part of my last post:

in the end, if you and i both believe that god, by whatever means, created the universe and gave us the gift of life, and if we both also agree that he sent his only son to earth to save us....isnt that the important bit? does it really matter HOW it all happened as long as it DID happen?

[edit on 20-11-2006 by Damocles]

[edit on 20-11-2006 by Damocles]

Originally posted by denynothing
is it possible that maybe god created evolution, cuz im a christian but i dont personally believe in creationism, i believe that god created the first organism and then created evolution so do you guys think that could be possible

There is a belief that some Christians follow known as "theistic evolution," to which it follows the same belief as the one you posted - "God guided evolution." It is not widely taught, but it is starting to grow among Christians.

Originally posted by Damocles
unreal im going to quote your posts in reverse order for a moment, apologies before hand.

first of all, save your first post, your whole contribution to this thread has been to pick apart the words i and saint have used in our posts.

for example:

Originally posted by UnrealZA
First, you are generalizing that "all people" held to the earth being flat. The Scriptures no where state this, in fact certain passages speak of the earth being round.

Nor does Scripture say that the earth is the center of the universe, in literal terms.

Also, why on earth would you want to "create" or "make up" such a Holy, Perfect and demanding God?? Think about it.

in that whole post you attack that? ok i guess in fairness i could have said that 'people, well, other than abraham, ishmael and zacariah, thoguht the world was flat"

why are you nitpicking so badly rather than taking the post as a whole and discussing the ideas we're presenting? its almost as though you single out little bits in an attempt to distract us. i guess that confuses me.
does the fact i disagree with the EXACT way you think offend you so desparatly?
i mean, im open minded...if you can show me proof im wrong, please present it for discussion. but you cant, there isnt any proof whatsoever that im wrong. ive looked. now thats not to say that i am RIGHT but no one can tell me im wrong. im willing to freely state i could in fact be dead wrong, but thats why its better to write your ideas on paper than to carve them in stone.


now as to your first post.

Originally posted by UnrealZA
I mean no offense but your "what if" was given no deep thought.

Let's say that God created or started evolution. We would then have a period of "sub-humans", a class of reptilian/mammal perhaps, what then of that "thing" when it dies? Does it have a soul that needs to be redeemed from sin? Afterall God took on flesh to save mankind from sin, does this mean that the "sub-human" had no sin? Or perhaps it has no chance at heaven?

Think about this.....in your view God is powerful enough to start life with a super single cell "thingy" that had to mutate over and over until man came from those mutations but God is not powerful enough to just speak a full grown man into creation??

Before you answer think about all the information that had to be written into the "simple single cell" ? It had to know when and when not to mutate, it had an innate knowledge of how to give birth, to feed, communicate, for flight and most important, knowledge. Yet God is not able to just create an already full grown whale, orange tree, eagle or human?

first part, i believe we gained our souls when we gained intelligence. when we gained the ability to talk to our god i believe we earned our souls. but thats only my opinion and im entitled to it.

for the last part, sure, i totally believe god COULD have just said "poof, yer adam" from dirt instantly. but there is more empiracal evidence that he did it slowly then there is that he did it instantly. is it a sin to be open minded?

and yet, after all of that, you totally just ignore this part of my last post:

in the end, if you and i both believe that god, by whatever means, created the universe and gave us the gift of life, and if we both also agree that he sent his only son to earth to save us....isnt that the important bit? does it really matter HOW it all happened as long as it DID happen?

[edit on 20-11-2006 by Damocles]

[edit on 20-11-2006 by Damocles]

Holding to a view that God started evolution limits God in Power and Will. Does it mean that one is not saved? I can't answer that.

It may be your opinion that we "gain inteligence" but you must now define "intelligence". Evolution holds that animals, including us, are born with blank slates and through observation we gain knowledge or intelligence. Yet if that be true how can we explain the contradiction of being able to "observe" without first having the "knowledge" (or intelligence) to KNOW we are in fact observing??

Therefore this claim is in error for one must have intelligence or knowledge prior to the act of observing. If not then one can learn nothing from observation for they have no idea they are even observing. This is placing the cart before the horse.

Now this may be "your opinion" and yes you are entitled to it but if your opinion is shown to be in error do you still hold to it or denounce it? If you hold to it then just how "open minded" are you really?

So now we can take this and apply it to the first "sub-humans" and ask, "When did they have intelligence?"

[edit on 20-11-2006 by UnrealZA]