Is Change Even Possible?

Can we beat climate change, do we as a collective at this present time have it in us to succeed against climate change?

Think about it, sure the issue is media friendly and its becoming cool to want to protect the planet, but recycling paper and plastic each week as is done around by me doesn't really have that much of an impact does it.

Talk of the point of no return creeping up upon us, when no matter what we do we'd have already done too much to actually reverse the impact sufficiently.
With Greenland's ice melting at a faster rate than we prevously thought, with an increase in extreme weather, with no true united front against the problems I'm doubtful we will do anything adequate enough to make the difference we're told we need to make before its too late.

Should we start planning for a world of regular extreme weather, a reduction in land mass through a rise is sea levels and global breakdown?

I challenge you to redeem my confidence that we can do something sufficient enough before its too late to stop climate change…


[edit on 16-11-2006 by UK Wizard]

I doubt if there is much to be done now. The damage has already been done. Whatever happens now,... well,let's just say it's time to pay the pied piper and man is he angry!!

I don't mean to make light of a serious topic,but I really don't think there is anything we can do to prevent what is dreaded. It's coming,regardless if we like it.

All I can post about climate change is this:

Water Vapor is the biggest cause of the greenhouse affect, which in turn contributes to climate change.

Humans have no control over the water vapor cycle.

Earth's history have shown cycles if cooling and warming periods, we are inbetween them as I type this.

Withouth the greenhouse affect, we would most likely not be here since most of the Earth wasn't habitable. It was covered in ice or snow. Do you want to go back to that or keep what we now have? Are we even capable of making a difference is the bigger question to ask.

If you like the moderate temps we have in this life time, thank the greenhouse affect.

If you think that the Earth will overheat one day and kill everyone, you are mistaken. Read about the history of Earth's climate changes that have already taken place and find out how this planet use to be.

Climate change is a good thing. We have to accept that people are going to have to move, or change behavior to deal with climate change. Trying to regulate anything we do as humans is a waste of time since we have no solid proof that we can make a difference. Why not try you ask? Look at the climate history, Earth will do what it has done for many hundreds of thousands of years no matter what we try to do.

Some species will die, others will flourish. This is nature. When we try to control it we will fail and there is nothing worse then wasting time on something that we have no control over. History of this planet lays this all out, so don't forget about water vapor since it is the biggest reason things are getting warmer and it will act as a balancing device if the climate were to get out of control. Once again, this is fact and can be found with an easy search engine.

Think about this, it gets warmer, this causes more water to evaporate, this causes more clouds, this causes less sun to penetrate the atmosphere and reach the surface to be reflected back and forth (Greenhouse affect), what would the result be? Lowered temperatures. Too bad that most people don't understand this simple cycle and only read about CO2.

Originally posted by NJ Mooch
Withouth the greenhouse affect, we would most likely not be here since most of the Earth wasn't habitable. It was covered in ice or snow. Do you want to go back to that or keep what we now have? Are we even capable of making a difference is the bigger question to ask.

If you like the moderate temps we have in this life time, thank the greenhouse affect.

If you think that the Earth will overheat one day and kill everyone, you are mistaken. Read about the history of Earth's climate changes that have already taken place and find out how this planet use to be.

Climate change is a good thing. We have to accept that people are going to have to move, or change behavior to deal with climate change. Trying to regulate anything we do as humans is a waste of time since we have no solid proof that we can make a difference. Why not try you ask? Look at the climate history, Earth will do what it has done for many hundreds of thousands of years no matter what we try to do.

Some species will die, others will flourish. This is nature. When we try to control it we will fail and there is nothing worse then wasting time on something that we have no control over. History of this planet lays this all out, so don't forget about water vapor since it is the biggest reason things are getting warmer and it will act as a balancing device if the climate were to get out of control. Once again, this is fact and can be found with an easy search engine.

Think about this, it gets warmer, this causes more water to evaporate, this causes more clouds, this causes less sun to penetrate the atmosphere and reach the surface to be reflected back and forth (Greenhouse affect), what would the result be? Lowered temperatures. Too bad that most people don't understand this simple cycle and only read about CO2.

No offense,but a corporate lackey couldn't have said it better.

Originally posted by UK Wizard
Can we beat climate change, do we as a collective at this present time have it in us to succeed against climate change?

The Hoover Dam was the first man made structure to exceed the masonry mass of the Great Pyramid of Giza.

The Hoover Dam is a true testimony to a country's ability to construct monolithic projects in the midst of adverse conditions.

Built during the Depression; thousands of men and their families came to Black Canyon to tame the Colorado River. It took less than 5 years, in a harsh and barren land, to build the largest dam of its time. Now, more than 60 years later, Hoover Dam still stands as a world-renowned structure.

Hoover Dam holds back 28,537,000 acre feet of water. An acre-foot is the amount of water required to cover one acre to a depth of one foot, or approximately 326,000 gallons.

Originally posted by NJ Mooch

Think about this, it gets warmer, this causes more water to evaporate, this causes more clouds, this causes less sun to penetrate the atmosphere and reach the surface to be reflected back and forth (Greenhouse affect), what would the result be? Lowered temperatures. Too bad that most people don't understand this simple cycle and only read about CO2.

No. No. No. Think about this. Humans burn fossil fuels, which are mainly made of carbon. This releases EXTRA carbon into the atmosphere as C02. Water vapour is just one of the greenhouse gases. As the planet heats up it radiates heat back into the atmosphere. The increase in greenhouse gases causes more of that heat to be trapped in the atmosphere. Bingo, global warming. You might be thinking of global dimming, which is an overall reduction in the amount of LIGHT reaching the planet's surface. In short, your postulation is spurious. Have a look at this link, Mooch, it explains it in terms you might be able to understand.
epa.gov/climatechange/kids/global_warming_version2

To the original question, Change is ALWAYS possible, it's whether it's probable that may be of more consequence. Is it probable that large, monolithic projects undertaken by industry and governments will promptly and effectively tackle this issue? Maybe, just don't hold your breath. Is it probable that a dedicated grassroots movement will be able to tackle the totality of the problem? Maybe not , but it's a start. I think it's a matter of just bloody well eating the elephant one bite at a time.

Each of us has the right to reduce their energy usage, as well as the responsiblity to pressure govenment and major polluting industries. We may very well have reached a tipping point in regard to the climate crisis, but that doesn't mean we're completely done for. It does mean a change in behaviours and expectations, though, I.M.O. and that is where a lot of the unknowns still are.

It may seem trite, but small things do really help. It may not seem like much if one person leaves their car at home for one day a week, but if a hundred million people did it. . .

Chin up, old bean. Hope isn't lost, it's just been buried under a pile of subterfuge.

I fear, as I think you do, that all we do will be too little too late. The changes to be made will change our whole way of life, and most people won't accept such standards of living. If everyone lived like westerners we'd be screwed now, and considering India and China are demanding their own industrial revoloutions to improve their living standards to our level it seems a losing battle.

We didn't react fast enough to the warnings that global warming would cause catastrophic enviromental changes, so the sooner we start adapting to the new world we'll be left with the better.

Ok, let me try this again.

www.msc.ec.gc.ca...
understanding/FAQ/sections/2_e.html
Read about the balancing that goes on because of water vapor.

en.wikipedia.org...
Read about the role of water vapor

What part of this don't people understand or know about?

The amount of CO2 that is released from humans is only 5% of the entire CO2 amount in our atmosphere. The other 95% is naturally made and has been cycled back and forth between the atmosphere and the surface of this planet. These numbers are also not precise, but the general consensus from the sites I visited.

Find the relation between increased CO2 and the actions water vapor has to counter them. A balancing act has been going on for the history of this planet, but until recently it hasn't been able to keep up because of increases that stem from humans. This balancing act doesn't happen over night and will take time. If anyone feels that it will reach a point were water vapor can't balance it out you will need to prove it since there have been higher concentrations of CO2 before and the balance was returned due to water vapor. www.sciencemag.org...
Read this to learn about the higher concentration levels of CO2 that were naturally balanced out.

The kids clip on the EPA website was cute, but it doesn't go into detail about many things and can give people the wrong idea of what is happening. Try this site for some more info on this: www.aip.org...

I hope you understand where i'm coming from since many people don't understand anything about water vapor and what is has been doing to balance the greenhouse affect. An increase in temps will increase the amount of water in the oceans. This will create a bigger carbon sink naturally. If more ice melts, the oceans will rise, bigger carbon sink. Will it take time? Yes. Will we see changes happen in our lifetime? No.

All that we can do, if we can even make a difference with the 5% of CO2 that we induced into the atmosphere, is make the balancing of greenhouse gases happen sooner rather then later. This can take hundreds or thousands of years, and it will balance out regardless of what we do anyway thanks to the natural processes that have gone on for the history of this planet.

Why would we want to?

Some of us (most of us?) are looking forward to global climate change.
Change = Opportunity.

Yes, its possible. We've had ice ages, and are still coming out of the Little Ice Age that was after the Little Climate Optimum. The climate naturally changes and humans can't influence it much.

Will we see changes happen in our lifetime? No.

Sorry to cherry pick like this but I have to disagree with this. We have already seen vast changes in the past 50 years. Icecaps are melting, the Atlantic Current is weakening, Perennials blooming earlier and earlier, droughts more and more common, more frequent extreme weather, etc, etc, etc. Go up to the Arctic Circle and ask the Inuit elders on what the Climate was like in their childhood. You'll be very surprised. Drastic changes in just a couple of generations. On a geological timescale, that is an extremely rapid and drastic change.

Another thing, is that you are wrong when you say we cannot effect the vapor cycle. We effect it by planting certain species of trees or paving over old growth forests to make way for a superhighway or a Wal-Mart. Millions of tons of Water that was originally destined for the Aquifer now end up evaporating due to the extremely low saturation point of asphalt. Planting trees in the wrong place can also cause this effect. This is a problem in central Texas I believe and it's actually environmentally feasible to cut and burn the non-native tree and grass species and let the native species back in. The results were unsurprisingly a revitalized ecological system. There are many many stories like this all across the globe. To read about a few of them, click the link in my Signature called Gaviotas: A Village to Reinvent the world.

They are discussed in detail in this book and just need to be implemented on a wide scale:

Worldchanging: A User's Guide for the 21st Century

It's not Doom and Gloom. It's primary focus is to bring to fruition a future where we can live with all the comforts we've grown accustomed to, while leaving a negligible trace behind in the ecosystem we live in and the environment we all depend upon.

For those of you who do not have access to a Library or cannot afford the Hard Cover, all is not lost, as it is just a compilation of information posted and knowledge gleaned through the excellent environmentalist blog called Worldchanging.com.

SkyBuilt Power's solution for sustainable power used in disaster relief is a very Worldchanging product. Just imagine if you set these things up to just deliver power to greenhouses and the like in a place where there is little infrastructure.

Or how about greater adoption of Smart Traffic Management systems to limit idling and reduce congestion.

A lot of the solutions are really easy as all they require of us is minor lifestyle adjustments(buying Local "Slow" food versus Imported "Fast" food).

Some will be moderately harder and will require substantial cash investments in order to reap benefits years down the road. Green Roofs are a substantial investment yet the benefits it provides far outweighs the cash spent. One benefit of Green Roofs is that they provide more green space in green-bare areas. There are lots of industrial roofs out there that can use a bit of beautification. Another positive is that it increases roof insulation either moderately or dramatically. It also has another odd effect of lowering roof maintenance costs, though the reason why escapes me at the moment.

The hardest steps will be convincing big business that there is big business to be done in the Green Technology sector. Some of those steps can include changing the building code for new buildings to require a minimum amount of "greenness"(both literally and figuratively) to get certification. Expanding that to extensive renovations would be a good idea as well. Tax breaks and even loan programs for slum lords(who own the most energy inefficient houses) to make their properties greener should be on the table.

I refuse to believe we have reached the point of no return in regards to the survival of our society. The climate however may be past the tipping point, but that is no reason not to try mitigating the situation and exasperate it. If another Ice Age hits, that all right. We've survived them before with far less advanced technology and scientific knowledge. We can do it again.

Gaviotas: A Village to Reinvent the World

[edit on 17-11-2006 by sardion2000]

I say the wisest thing we can do is prepare to adjust and adapt to what Mother Nature has already set her mind upon (whether or not we provoked it is actually irrelevant at this point - we are far beyond the point of being able to influence it, if we ever really were.)

Here are some things I've though of:

#1 Stock up on drinking water
#2 Move away from the coastlines
#3 Move away from all sorts of fault lines (both the edges of plates and the middles)
#4 Move away from the foot of volcanoes
#5 Plant a garden and start a compost heap - learn how to preserve food (canning, drying, salt curing, etc)
#6 Look into alternative energy sources for your home (wind turbines, wood or coal burning stoves, etc)

Queen,all of your suggestion are advisable. I just wonder how many millions of people will die before the general population starts doing it.

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
Queen,all of your suggestion are advisable. I just wonder how many millions of people will die before the general population starts doing it.

That's been a question I've pondered on for quite some time...I wonder just how far the human mind can take such an issue in denial?

And the official sources of information have me puzzled, too. I remember the first time I heard the CBS evening news actually address the problem outright - I am certain it was less than a year ago...but I had been waiting and waiting for that day to come! And I thought that when it did, then people would begin to understand and maybe start making plans and preparations. And yet, nothing much has changed. There is more talk of 'what to do to change it' but even that is just talk, for the most part (not that it matters - wasted time is still wasted time).

I wonder if the denial extends all the way up the heirarchy of leadership (now I'M being the cynical one ) - because SURELY if a non-specialized internet junkie like me could see this stuff coming 2 or 3 years ago - yet the 'official' declarations to the public are barely being made this year - are they lying on purpose? Or are they just as unable to cope (especially with the weight of all of us on their shoulders) with the inevitable in their minds and so are also in denial? Maybe it is more like 'crowd control' - echoes of the chaotic panic that happened from that infamous radio broadcast back in the 1950's ( or 40's?).... Perhaps they have no solution so they'd rather not lose face with the public...

I don't know, at all! But there is nothing that would serve us all better than honesty and practical thinking about risk management (as opposed to damage control which seems to be the preferred SOP of modern governments).

The most tragic possibility I foresee (and I hope I am totally WRONG) is what might happen when there is absolutely no more possible denial - some of those who are unprepared might very well become vigilante survivalists, willing to take the life of other people just to prolong their own a few more weeks...

That is a truly scary thought. I try not to think it. I direct my thoughts toward the other direction as much as I can.

I figure that there isn't any reason to expect that the remaining population will be determined not by men but by the Earth, itself. It will support as many as it will support. And perhaps that is the reason for all this in the first place - it is a very crowded planet right now, more crowded than it ever has been and I don't kid myself that mankind, even as a whole, has the power or means to resist the plans of 'Mother.' When it is time to clean house, it is time to clean house!

Queen,it is a topic that is hard not to be cynical about. I read things that are obviously designed to allow the corporation to further pollute the atmosphere. This site here has more people that try to make excuses about the causes of GW than any site I have honestly come across. I am not necessarily knocking the site for this,but I have noticed quite a few pro-corporate,anti-global warming theorists on this site.


It is rather disturbing that people are willing to pay drastic costs just to maintain their level of life for a couple more years. Then,when it all hits rock botton, they will be the first to cry, "Why oh why..What have we done?"

Then I turn on talk radio,and some disc-jockey, puts his two cents into it. Saying that he doesn't see any truth in global warming and then my mind is really at odds... So,because some disc-jockey sits in a radio station and pontificates that makes it fact? I guess many Americans seem to think it does.

People state,well, global warming is 95% caused by the earth itself. And? What about the 5% of the toxic, not natural, chemicals we throw into the atmosphere? Shhhh!! We're not supposed to talk about that,are we? Oh no,heaven forbid if humans actually take a share of the blame. It's all nature's doing.

Then we have corporate paid politicians stand up in front of God and country and declare they are doing everything in their power to alleviate pollution. BULLCRAP!! Why are we still dependent on fossil fuels if that is the case? You want to know why? Do you really? MONEY. It's all about the almighty freakin dollar. The governments and the corporations can't find a way to stiff the public with alternative fuel sources,so they choose to hold onto the "depleting" fossil fuels. What a load of garbage the powers that be feed us.

If I sound angry,GOOD!!



[edit on 17-11-2006 by SpeakerofTruth]

High Flow, High Efficiency Shower Heads(That's better then the real thing)

New iron production process cuts emissions by 90%, including a 97% reduction in SO2

We also gotta start relying more on indigenous perennial crops

[edit on 17-11-2006 by sardion2000]

[edit on 17-11-2006 by sardion2000]

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
It is rather disturbing that people are willing to pay drastic costs just to maintain their level of life for a couple more years. Then,when it all hits rock botton, they will be the first to cry, "Why oh why..What have we done?"

OR maybe also 'why didn't I?'

People state,well, global warming is 95% caused by the earth itself. And? What about the 5% of the toxic, not natural, chemicals we throw into the atmosphere? Shhhh!! We're not supposed to talk about that,are we? Oh no,heaven forbid if humans actually take a share of the blame. It's all nature's doing.

You know, I'm just not sure what it is all about - I think the biggest thing that irks me is just the bickering over who and what and why - at this point it doesn't matter and it will matter less and less as it goes on - blame blame accuse accuse...I thought it was methane, anyway? Cows are the biggest source of methane! And little boys. jk.

Then we have corporate paid politicians stand up in front of God and country and declare they are doing everything in their power to alleviate pollution. BULLCRAP!! Why are we still dependent on fossil fuels if that is the case? You want to know why? Do you really? MONEY.

Exactly! Trust me, I know - I live in the Permian basin - the land where the pump jack is king and I have to admit that the oil industry has kept me fed through one former hubby and also the one I have now....there isn't much else, I'm afraid - the dwindling potash industry isn't the lifeline it used to be.

It's all about the almighty freakin dollar. The governments and the corporations can't find a way to stiff the public with alternative fuel sources,so they choose to hold onto the "depleting" fossil fuels. What a load of garbage the powers that be feed us.

And you know, gas in my town is always the highest or almost the highest priced in he whole state of NM?!?! Nonsense.

If I sound angry,GOOD!!

You sound good, angry - righteously indignant is what I'm hearing!

We could be using wind energy and crystals and they've even got a car now that runs on water is it? or else the exhaust is water? Maybe I'm making that up - I did hear something recently...

As far as the so-called global warming, though, it is hard for me to believe because here in the desert it has been getting increasingly more tolerable in the summers and there has been a lot more rain - it is really green and pretty and less and less like literal hell as early as May! Definitely the climate is changing but it is not getting warmer here....and I've seen satellite pictures of greenery encroaching in upon the Sahara...

And I've also read that the ozone layer was shrinking over the antarctic?!? It is the magnetic field from the core that protects us from the biggest portion of deadly sun energy, too - and it is getting a little weaker but continues to do far more than the gases around us...I also read recently that the energy/heat that is at the leading edge of the heliosphere is many more times hotter than it has been - suggesting that we are traveling through a more energized (somehow) portion of space....lots of conflicting information.

The glaciers have been on the decline for almost 100 years, but it just wasn't apparent - surely the industrial revolution wasn't that potent at first - if it were, then we'd be fried now for sure!

And my most honest opinion is that I think it is arrogant and far too puffed up of mankind to think he could hurt the Earth beyond its means to cope with any more than he could fix what he thinks might be broken. We just really aren't in any kind of control (physically) over this planet - even to the slightest degree....we are at Gaia's mercy and always have been. We can't even understand our planet - after all, she is a woman and prone to 'spells' and 'moods.'

Excellent links, sardion!

I do have one of those shower heads, already. And the garden is getting in shape. A goat? Well, okay! I think it would serve as a good yard-guard, too. LOL.

I truly think that growing hemp and using it to its fullest potential would do MUCH good!

That is one of the biggest travesties of corporate greed abusing the earth that I can think of! Hemp can be used for so many things! SO many! Heck it wouldn't even bother me to let DuPont have the biggest share of the hemp market if it they wanted! It's not DuPont I dislike - it is their lack of chemical potty hygiene that is the ugly thing.
Of course there are many others but it was their cause in 1911 to rid us of hemp in favor of their latex or whatever it was they invented, if I remember correctly.

And I've also read that the ozone layer was shrinking over the antarctic?!?

Well, there was actualy some predictor back in the 90s that said that we would eventually see the hole in the ozone layer disappear,close up. I do think that the earth will eventually heal itself,but it just concerns me.

It will be my children, if I ever finally decide to settle and have any, and my grandchildren that will have to pay the price if the earth doesn't somehow "miraculously" heal itself. That is where my real concern lies.

To be honest,I really have no idea how much the actions of man contributes to the world's environmental problems. I know how it seems to me. I would'nt think that all of the toxic chemicals we throw into the atmosphere day in and day out could possibly be doing any good.

Like you mentioned,Annie, there are alternatives. I cringe every time someone asks, "Well,what are we supposed to do,collapse the economy?" That line of thinking is ridiculous. First of all, this is something that should have been thought about thirty years ago. We knew at least that long ago that there was a problem. Instead of jumping on it then, we just thought the problem would just disappear. Hah!! It didn't.

It's amazing to me that people continue to not even acknowledge that there is even a problem. Forget what the causes of it are for now!! They don't even want to admit that there is a problem!! The only thing that I can figure this stems from is fear. Fear of change and fear of what might happen if things don't change. Therefore, in order to cancel both out,some just deny that there is any problem at all.

However, this line of "reasoning" is beginning to sink. We are already seeing coastal waters starting to creep in,not only on our own coastlines, but predominately on many Asian nations... Whether this is due to global warming I don't know, but I do know that there is a problem. You can't convince me that this is "just something the earth does."

There is a question that does emblazon in my mind. If all of these glaciers are indeed melting the way it is proclaimed,where is all of the water going? Yeah, there is some creeping in on the coastline,but certainly not to the extent that one might think. The water has to be going somewhere. But where?

I have actually went from an absolute believer in global warming to someone who just knows that there is a problem. Whatever is going on, it certainly does not seem normal to me at all. The climates,this can't be argued, are certainly shifting. Let's face it. If the cyclic version of earth's nature is to be believed, we are indeed due for another ice age. Ice ages,according to the cyclic version, occurs,what, every 10,000 years on average. It's been well over 13,000 years since the last one. It will be interesting to see if instead of warming, the planet doesn't eventually get colder.

Of course, none of us are likely to be here to witness the outcome of it, but our descendents certainly will.

[edit on 17-11-2006 by SpeakerofTruth]