JROTC Programs banned in SF

Originally posted by BlueRaja
Of course teaching them Marxist ideology, and America bashing isn't indoctrination right?

I had no idea that was the official alternative to JROTC. Thanks for letting me know.

Originally posted by BlueRaja
If it weren't for the military, America wouldn't exist in the first place, and the freedoms to sit here and s#it talk about it, wouldn't exist either.

If America never existed, you wouldn't have any freedoms to talk?



[edit on 12/12/06 by SteveR]

Beleive or not there are many who serve the country that are gay, especially on the female side. The male side tends to not like other males who are gay which is crude but normal. The policy does not allow homosexuals to be open about it or marry but it does dot ban them, more of a de facto policy. I wish the policy was better and more fair to everone but Im sure if openly gay men were allowed there would be many cases of abuse by their fellow service men.

The issue here is JROTC being banned and it is disgusting that such a positive program for high school is getting kicked of the schools.

No, Nygdan, you're wrong. Homosexuality is not a normal sexual orientation. It is an alternative sexual orientation. Normal, or "valid" sexual orientation, is that between a man and woman, as we were created. Anything else -- man on child, man on dog, man on man -- is abnormal, and is therefore a perversion of sexuality itself.

Homosexuals, while allowed in society, should not have "equal treatment" because they are not equal. Yes, they're human beings, but they're perverted, and need to recognize it. If they're willing to be homosexual with all of society recognizing them as perverts, then let them. But don't cater to them and attempt to portray their perverted sexual practices and attractions as normal or "valid".

Again, a nonissue. What basically happened is SF banned a good after-school program which has a great reputation, and used a very poor reason to back it up, which itself is based on the invalid claim that the Pentagon is wrong for discriminating against gays.

Discrimination itself is not wrong, and should be legal. If studies show that more crimes of theft are committed by blacks than whites, then store owners should be able to discriminate against blacks when picking cashiers. If it is obvious that gay men in the military would use up valuable time by plinking away in the showers, then they should not be allowed in on a strictly practical basis, forgetting all of the moral reasons.

Originally posted by southern_cross3
No, Nygdan, you're wrong. Homosexuality is not a normal sexual orientation. It is an alternative sexual orientation. Normal, or "valid" sexual orientation....

How do you know he is wrong? Have you been given some special insight above all others? What is normal? How do you not know there is some other explanation for it? How can you comprehend the mechanics of how we are born to be?

Let me guess, your bible right?

Ignorance..

No, you're being ignorant by avoiding the issue. The only reason that homosexuality is even in this subject is because SF dragged it into it. The real issue is about the JROTC being banned. It should be apparent that the animosity towards discrimination towards queers is not a valid reason to ban such a fine program, regardless of the validity of the said animosity.

I agree that banning JROTC over the gay issue is very dramatic. Again though, that isn't the only issue in play here. I happen to agree with what Dan Kelly said about the military indoctrination. We don't need that in schools...

To serve one's country is the highest honor one can have. You see, the military can indoctrinate schools for precisely these reasons:

1) The military belongs to the government
2) Public schools belong to the government

If you really want doctrination out of schools, get the federal government out of them. That way, the military indoctrination and a whole bunch of other garbage will leave too, and local school districts can do what they want without having to worry about the feds.

Originally posted by jrod
The issue here is JROTC being banned and it is disgusting that such a positive program for high school is getting kicked of the schools.

But, again, they ban homosexuals from joining. I doubt that that was the main reason for eliminating it, but in all honesty, if the organization discriminates against gay americans, why should the public schools of the town and state have to cater to it???

Homosexuality is not a normal sexual orientation

No, it is. Its perfectly permissible for a person to be gay.

Homosexuals, while allowed in society, should not have "equal treatment" because they are not equal. Yes, they're human beings

All human beings deserve equal treatment before the law.

but they're perverted, and need to recognize it

Gays aren't perverts, but even if a person is a pervert, what does that matter, they still have rights.
Hell, the military accepts pervers into it, it just rejects gays.

But don't cater to them

By giving them normal human rights? By letting them serve in the military to defend the country? Hell, if anything, if a person is willing to serve in the military, then they above all others deserve those normal human rights.

nonissue. What basically happened is SF banned a good after-school program which has a great reputation

BUT it discriminates against students on the basis of sexual orientation.

Discrimination itself is not wrong, and should be legal.

The vast majority of americans, the government, and the constitution, utterly disagrees with you.

If studies show that more crimes of theft are committed by blacks than whites, then store owners should be able to discriminate against blacks when picking cashiers

Thats absurd. There's no causal link between being black and being a theif. Some blacks are theives, some whites are theives, you can't tell if a person is a theif based on their skin colour.
What if catholics were, statistically, more likely to be theives, then protestants? Can we exclude catholics from a job? Can we have laws to prevent catholics from moving into certain towns?
Some religion must be the one most statistically associated with crime, should we bug their churches, or discriminate against whoever they are?
The vast majority of murders in this country, for that matter, are committed by christians. Does that mean that we should have laws prohibiting the practice of christianity? Certainly, we shouldn't have holidays on christian days, or christian religious decorations in stores and malls. That'd be perverted.

only reason that homosexuality is even in this subject is because SF dragged it into it.

Its one of the reasons that they're citing for eliminating the JROTC programme! How is that 'dragging' it into it?

The real issue is about the JROTC being banned

And the town's reasons for banning it.

discrimination is not a valid reason to ban such a fine program

Since you've already said that it'd be fine to eliminate blacks from the programme, because they're theives, then I really don't think that anyone's going to be too concerned if you think its acceptable to discriminate against gays.

[edit on 12-12-2006 by Nygdan]

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott


This is what it all boils down to, just like the Boy Scouts.

Now if there was a program to teach kids how to have sex in public restrooms, that'd be just fine.

How about this idea?

No more federal funding for SF schools.






[edit on 2006/11/15 by GradyPhilpott]

Exactly, it's as simple as that. they will receive absolutely no federal funding. It the rich libnerals where it hurts, their pockets.

You'll have to pardon me for not being able to answer all of your ridiculously long post Nygdan . . . some of us have a life outside of the internet.


However, I think you missed my points. Organizations should be able to accept who they want into their ranks. If buttsexers want to defend the country, then they should form their own private militia.

The military is an organization.
The Boy Scouts are an organization.
Churches are organizations.
The Masons are an organization.

I believe any one of these organizations should be allowed to discriminate against anyone they want. You know why? Because those that are discriminated against will simply make their own groups, and everyone will get what they want.

It is not the government's right or responsibility to say that discrimination is wrong. Partly because it's not wrong, and partly because it's just not the government's business. If the military doesn't want queers, then it shouldn't have queers. I still stand by my wish that the JROTC students will take military action agaisnt those that are screwing with the program. I mean, we're all debating it in terms of generalities and high-minded theories, but the fact is there are hundreds of kids that enjoyed this program and were in it on a volunteer basis, learning to be good citizens, and they now no longer even have the option to be in it.

No one is forced to be in JROTC. They choose to be in it. If they don't want to be part of an organization that discriminates against queers, then they don't have to join. But those real men, who don't go around wanting anal-love and spreading AIDs like rabid monkeys, should have the option to join.

Originally posted by Nygdan

Originally posted by jrod
The issue here is JROTC being banned and it is disgusting that such a positive program for high school is getting kicked of the schools.

But, again, they ban homosexuals from joining. I doubt that that was the main reason for eliminating it, but in all honesty, if the organization discriminates against gay americans, why should the public schools of the town and state have to cater to it???

The days of asking someone if they are gay before rejecting them are over. Homosexuals are not banned from joining, if they were allowed to be open about it I can assure that many would be beat up over it, thats is just how it is when a bunch of males are living together, so the policy may be beneficial in the big picture.

I dont think you understand how positive of a program JROTC is, it makes a student a better person, even for high school jobs a student with JROTC on their resume is a far better prospect than the average student. The list goes on and on why JROTC should be offered at every school.

To take someone else's point, schools recieve gov't money, the gov't has the military to protect us so the schools who want to ban JROTC should be banned from the gov't's money. Easy solution.

[edit on 12-12-2006 by jrod]

It wasn't an either/or of JROTC vs. Marxism per se. It was more of a general observation in terms of the mindset of many of these Academe types. Pot this is Kettle, come in over. They have no problem with indoctrination, its just that they prefer it be of their views and values, rather than those of the institution which preserves their rights to hold those views.

For the record, JROTC doesn't ban gays. The lefties are upset because of the military's don't ask don't tell policy, and because JROTC could potentially lead someone to join that organization, out of spite, they want JROTC banned.

Originally posted by jrod
I dont think you understand how positive of a program JROTC is

But, again, its discriminating against our fellow americans, based on what they do or don't do in the bedroom. Its just plain wrong. So the schools have a valid point, when they object to it on those grounds, to eliminate it. Indeed, the federal government normally forbids discrimination on such grounds. If the schools weren't letting gay students in, we'd be sending the state militia to integrate them. And if the military was rejecting blacks, on the basis of blacks being bad for morale, or wanted segregated units, because integration is bad for morale, we'd all recognize that as some bad bunkum.


[pquote]
To take someone else's point, schools recieve gov't money,
That money is public money anyway. The government is collecting money, from gays, and then saying 'we're using this money to create these programes, but you can't enter them. And if you object, we're going to not even give you back some of your money for your public schools'.

Besides, schools are largely funded by their own districts, the federal government doesn't pay for schools. If anything, its the JROTC that shouldn't be receiving federal funds, because there are federal laws that prohibit discriminator programs from receiving federal funds.

the gov't has the military to protect us so the schools who want to ban JROTC should be banned from the gov't's money. Easy solution.

OR, the military can allow any citizen to join, regardless of race, creed, or sexual orientation.

Now, at the same time, these schools are objecting to JROTC for other reasons that aren't valid. The idea that its a 'militarization' of the schools is absurd. THe programme is open to students who wish to join,they're not forcing everyone in the school to do it. It'd be like saying if there was a muslim student group, that its an islamization of the school. Clearly, its not.

Just out of curiosity, what is the threshold for something to cease to be normal, and become perverse?

perversion-

an aberrant sexual practice that is preferred to normal intercourse [syn: sexual perversion]

"If America never existed, you wouldn't have any freedoms to talk?"

I don't recall that being what I said, so if you're going to quote me, at least get it right.

Without the military, the USA would have never come into being. Without the military, the rights you enjoy under the Constitution, wouldn't be secure.

Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, as amended, 42 USC 2000e (Title VII) which bars employment discrimination based on race, color, national origin, religion, gender, or retaliation with respect to applicants or employees of the Federal government.


Once again- JROTC doesn't ban gays, so that's not the issue.

Originally posted by BlueRaja
"If America never existed, you wouldn't have any freedoms to talk?"

I don't recall that being what I said, so if you're going to quote me, at least get it right.

Without the military, the USA would have never come into being. Without the military, the rights you enjoy under the Constitution, wouldn't be secure.

That hardly gives the military the power to ignore the consitution. The constitution says that all men are equal, regardless of their race, religion, practices, sexual orientation, habits, etc. The military is saying 'not so fast'.

Once again- JROTC doesn't ban gays,

They don't?

Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, as amended, 42 USC 2000e (Title VII) which bars employment discrimination based on race, color, national origin, religion, gender, or retaliation with respect to applicants or employees of the Federal government.


Sexual orientation isn't covered. Private companies have added that, but it's not a government regulation.

And the topic here is JROTC, not the military. JROTC doesn't ban gays, so that should be the end of the discussion for those folks. They just don't like the military.