Israel. Why? I Don't Get It.

First off, I want to make it clear that this is not a bashing of the Israeli people. It IS my view of Israels government, and their policies.

What I do understand. The Israeli people are under constant fear of terror attacks. We've all heard the reports of terror attacks in Israels coffee shops, stores, buses, etc... where innocent people were killed. The US had 1 real terror attack on 9/11, which was 5 years ago, and we're still crying about it. I mean that literally. I still have the dreadful feeling of loss, and yes, to a lesser degree fear. Fear of what will be next. And I do believe that there will be a "next".
The Israeli people have chosen to live their lives everyday with this very real possibility that there will be another attack(s) on that day. They must scrutinize every person wearing a jacket and wonder if there is a bomb hiding under said jacket. I wouldn't want to live that way. In fact I don't think I could live that way.

What I don't understand. Everything else.
I'm so tired of Israel playing the part of the martyr. It seems like every week that there is some sort of headline that says that Israel is justifying it's actions. Whether it's breaking a ceasefire, or blaming the killing of civilians on "technical errors", or re-drawing the path that the "Wall" will be built to whatever suits Israels interests at the moment. They provoke their enemies. Are they trying to start a war with Iran, knowing that good old Uncle Sam will come running to the rescue? What exactly is Israel doing? What was Israel thinking when they sent fighters "Clearly in attack position" over French troops?

www.washingtonpost.com...

Seriously, what was that all about? Everything seems to be about Israel. The US dumps billions of dollars into this "state" we call Israel every single year. Why? In my opinion, alot of terror and hate is a direct result of supporting Israel.

If Israel stopped acting as such a rogue state perhaps there would be peace. Is that really such an outlandish statement? Maybe there is a reason why that entire part of the world hates Israel.

Look we all know that Israels enemies are no saints who are completely innocent. They're not. Irans saying that Israel should be wiped off the map is a pretty strong statement. But Israel does things with impunity, on a fairly regular basis. They don't just talk, they do.

Why is Israel permitted to do these things? If Iran for instance did these things, there would be total outrage.

Again I say that this is not directed at the Israeli people. It's not. Do not take this out of context. I do not wish to see Israel "go away". I simply do not understand the Israeli leaderships thinking. And I don't understand why Israel gets a free ticket to do whatever it wants, while the western world turns a blind eye to it.

I look forward to hearing replies.

I also don't understand how they can attack countries that aren't even a threat with impunity and get away with it. Maybe that sort of intitleism is OK? It's not with me. I still don''t understand why we didn't do anything like cesate all help immediatly to the country of Isreal after the blatant and undefendable attack on the US liberty, nor the attack on the German ship last week. I just don't get it either. But I don't sympathise for them either. their attitudes, and actions prevoke their enemies and then they turn around and act like they are the marters. If I share my property with say a wild animal that lives in the woods next to my house and I prevoked said animal with a stick until it attacked me, I would be the asshole right? not the animal. So how do they get away with it. I feel the other countries in the region have plenty of good reasons to be pissed off at the nation of isreal.

Don't forget that ariel sharon and the pre runners of the likude party were the first to start using terrorism Via false flag bombing operations against civilian targets of their neighbors to justify forming the party and isreals current agressive stance. The palestinians were following from isreals actions. Now it's all one giant mess, both sides accountable for unfogivable atrocities, and over what?

Everything seems to be about Israel. The US dumps billions of dollars into this "state" we call Israel every single year. Why?

Lombozo,I don't have a direct answer for you on this question. However, what I think is that America has suffered a guilt complex since world war II.

You have to remember the Jews,although not Israeli Jews, were being killed by nazi Germany as early as 1938(maybe earlier). America sit back and declared its self neutral until the bombing of pearl harbor on December 7,1941. So, for three years, the slaughter of the Jews took place while America sit idly by.

I think our allegiance to a Jewish state is centered around that. You also have to be aware that like there are zionist Jews, there are also zionist Christians who would raise ten kinds of hell if we quit supporting the "state" of Israel.

[edit on 10-11-2006 by SpeakerofTruth]

Trust me, I hear what you're saying. You're pretty much preaching to the choir my friend.
I just don't get it.

posted by SpeakerofTruth
...America has suffered a guilt complex since world war II.

You have to remember the Jews,although not Israeli Jews, were being killed by nazi Germany as early as 1938(maybe earlier). America sit back and declared its self neutral until the bombing of pearl harbor on December 7,1941. So, for three years, the slaughter of the Jews took place while America sit idly by.

Agree! So now we all have to pay for the bad conscience of the Allied Powers of WW2. And the prize will add up to another WW (whatever number you choose).

For sure they knew. British intelligence as early as 1941 had a complete view of the nazi's plans of "Vernichtung", extermination. They followed the build up of Auschwitz and the whole logistic and industrial complex involved, IG Farben developing Cyklon-B, the laying out of railtracks to make it an efficient machine.

They could very easy early on have hindered or seriously delayed those plans. But the Brits did nothing.

As to why, one has to remember Britain by tradition and history has been one of the most anti-semitic countries in the world. Also, just prior to WW2, in 1936 Edward VIII gave up the throne, officially because of love to a divorced American woman, Mrs. Simpson, who according to FBI reports had another loveaffair with the German ambassador to Britain, von Ribbentrop, a top nazi soon to become Foreign Minister of Germany. But Edward himself was widely known for his pre-war nazi sympathies.

A sidestep to show that British admiration for the ideology of Hitler went far up in the ruling classes. So of course they didn't bomb IG Farben or the railroads to Auschwitz, never once they did. Instead they killed hundred of thousands of innocent civilians in the firestorm of Dresden, a city without the slightest strategic or logistic value ...or those of Hamburg, Hannover and Bremen, the strongholds of anti nazi resistance in Germany. Places where Hitler never once did hold a speech or any massrally.

To add to the missing logics of war, Jewish bankers widely financed the build of the Third Reich.

The result, the State of Israel to be established on the the British protectorate of Palestine, hold by a mandat from the Legue of Nations, was solely an attempt to redeem the guilt of the British - for not doing what they easily could have done, to prevent or deminish the worst genocide in the history of man.

i understand what youre saying here, and israel is certainly not innocent in regards to the problems in the ME. but what i dont understand is that israel always seems to be the only party at fault in the eyes of the world. youve got iran's president spitting out garbage about wiping israel off the map, syria's leader making moves towards taking back the golan heights, palestinians who were offered their own country in 1947 but refused because they would have to officially recognize israel, several different terrorist organizations supported by some of the same countries mentioned above carrying out attacks on civilians while hiding behind their own civilians and then crying about civilian casualties when israel responds, and you've got an entire world that is constantly berating israel for it's strong-arm tactics.....a world, by the by, that set up the region to be the mess that is. everyone is equally at fault, and yet israel is always solely to blame. somebody please explain that.

Our media might portrait them as a martyr or claiming to be one.. but really when it comes down to it Israel gets slaped, they punch back. Just a circle of violence. Israel cannot actually prevent an attack from occuring, to many people to monitor and Palestine is on more then one side of Israel, not to mention sharing a capital. So instead of prevention they practise punishment. You blow up a bus, I kill your politicians and a few civilians. You launch a rocket at me I will burn your farms to the ground and raise a city square. You kidnap a soldier il terrorize you for several months.

I still cant believe you can actually rattle off so many things off the cuff and still not even come close to what they have actually gotten away with and people will sit there and just act like it didn't even happen and that everyone is just picking on them LOL its like AMAZING! Yes they are picked on but have they ever ctually been punished,sanctioned or even slapped on the wrist? LOL

I think some people just purposefully ignore facts.


So many Jews as well as Americans are often quite proud of The Mossad and their accomplishments especially at Political Assasinations.Which I might add are openly admitted and used in public threats by Government leaders constantly. If this were true that everyone picks on them, why is it, that Israel can cross over into sovereign territory pick off whoever disagrees with them and never suffer the consequences, yet The UN is now investigating the assasination of Lebanese PM Hariri and syrian officials are to be brought on trial. (Not tht I disagree with this..I hope they catch who did it)

President Saddam Hussein had an entire town plot to assasinate him and he had 128 people arrested , thrown in jail, beaten and tortured, tried and executed yet he was a "Madman" nevermind that he was defending his Presidency in light of a possible Coup attempt.

PM Olmert had a bunch of Palestinians fire 3 qassam rockets and land in a field and he has 18 people summarily killed that had nothing to do with qassam rockets at all, no trial, just a death sentence and hes just "defending his people" and it was also a "technical error" (This was only one incident out of thousands that have gone unpunished and unrebuked)

You wanna talk about picked on...speak with ole Saddam...you wanna talk about getting off scott free with a little criticism thrown at you, speak to Israel.

the post above mine is a perfect example. people just plain hate israel. the facts dont really matter.....to people like pieman, israel is the only entity at fault. why? there is enough fault to pass around equally.

snafu7700 have you ever even heard facts about what israel has done to the palestinians and the syrians and the lebanese!!!!? for gods sake ssstop giving me the BS i hear every freakin day on CNN and FOX!!! and so what if the Syrians wan tthe golan heights back, it's there's by internation borders. and ok so what if America turned a blind eye on what happened in the 30's and 40s, that's freaking 60 years ago, what the hell is the world gonna have to carry this guilt another century before it goes away, and now while we're at it start another WW, and then have guilt about that one, and then we'll go and kill a few million jews, then we'll be so guilty about what we did, and BLAH BLAH BLAH!!! seriously sart reading FACTS abotu what israel, then come ask me "why do peopple always blame israel" well i'll tell ya why, because they drive palestinians out of lawfully owned houses and put mr. israeli settler in it, they practice collective punishment, they attack other countries in violation of international law, they build a wall that's like 3 times as high as the infamour Berlin wall, they kill civilians en masse, they hold lebanese and palestinians in filthy jails or even concentration camps(mainly forced labor camps), and many other violations of International law, and many acts of indecency. and i'll tell you why they get away with it because Uncle sam always comes running to the rescue everytime they get in trouble. the only reason they didn't decimate Cairo in the suez crisis, which was triggered by a rightfull act by Jamal Abd el-nasser, was the immediate release of a statement by the USSR that ISrael Britian and France must withdraw there forces immediatly, which pressured the US to do the same and pressure the latter 3 countries, but now there is no USSR to do this balancing, so Israel can now i bet launch attacks on Syria, Jordan, and Lebanon, and Egypt(not all at once), and still get away with it, why because Uncle Sam is always there for the rescue with political, financial, and even Military backing!

SO PLEASE STOP THE BS! (sorry for the caps had to it)

When Israel ceases to be valuable to screwed up US foreign policy, then there will be a lot less support for Israel. It isn't because of a "guilt complex".

and this is what I don't get..

The Jews killed Jesus... So now the world hates them... Hitler was coerced by the Ayatollah... now its simply 'extremist' muslims..

Now its Saddam, Lets Kill em, he killed innocent people too.. just like the jews.. so lets murder em all.. everyone whose done bad stuff..
oh and those Christians... they killed innocent muslims in the times of Muhammad.. frickin' Christians.. lets kill em too.. they were bad they killed innocent people..

see a pattern ??? whens it gonna stop... thats what I don't get..

Lets just pardon everyone and start all over again ... ??? like on the playground when we were kids... start-overs.. okay? .. everyone agree? .. no one can hold anything against anyone .. ?? .. everyone behave and we can all live in harmony..?

naw, its too easy... lets just kill each-other because we're all evil evil humans.

Originally posted by snafu7700
the post above mine is a perfect example. people just plain hate israel. the facts dont really matter.....to people like pieman, israel is the only entity at fault. why? there is enough fault to pass around equally.

Very true. At first I thought these guys just loved the Palestinians for some reason.. then after arguing with them constantly since I joined the site I have come to realize they do not necessarily love Palestine but more or less hate Israel. And since they hate Israel they will cheer on any enemy of Israel. Palestinians can burst through the front door of a settlers house, kill the husband, kill the son, kill the mother and child as the mother throws her self on top of the child to attempt to spare its life and they would still claim Israel made them murder in cold blood. (by the way that is a true story)

They do not care the Palestine are such cowards that they avoid the IDF in war time to kill women and children. At least Israels civilian casualties are mostly sad occurrences when they are fighting an enemy.

For someone who likes neither of these peoples I see Palestine as the more barbaric cowards, they don't want peace they want the last punch before the peace treaty is signed.. and no peace treaty will be signed if that is what they really want.

inc2006:

yes, i have done much research on the entire history of the area. i know very well that israel is just as guilty as everyone else. the point i am making, however, is that they are not the only party at fault, and yet they seem to get all the blame. there is no innocent party here. on one hand, you can tell us about all the civilians who died as a result of israeli attacks. on the other, i can tell you about all of the civilians intentionally targetted by muslim terrorists. i am not a supporter of israel, or any other entity in the ME. but if you are going to fault israel, you should be honest about why you choose to isolate israelis as being solely at fault, when in fact that are but part of the problem.

Originally posted by PuRe EnErGy
Now its Saddam, Lets Kill em, he killed innocent people too.. just like the jews.. so lets murder em all.. everyone whose done bad stuff..
oh and those Christians... they killed innocent muslims in the times of Muhammad.. frickin' Christians.. lets kill em too.. they were bad they killed innocent people..

see a pattern ??? whens it gonna stop... thats what I don't get..

Lets just pardon everyone and start all over again ... ??? like on the playground when we were kids... start-overs.. okay? .. everyone agree? .. no one can hold anything against anyone .. ?? .. everyone behave and we can all live in harmony..?

PureEnergy, you are actually quite right. While I think we are currently living in a society of no accountability,I also think that some of us,including myself, take accountability too far. I have mentioned the crusades and the inquisition,time and time again in reagrds to the Muslims and Christians,but, there is going to have to come a time when I quit holding proponenets of the religions accountable for what their ancestors did.

I think we are gradually working toward a world system where people are going to say,well, look at what this group did 500 years ago,let's wipe out this existing blight on humanity that exists today!! WTF? How is that fair? Yet,I see that day and time fastly approaching.

I think this will happen with the world's religions first. You are already beginning to see the tide starting to turn against the religions of Islam and Christianity.Although,I think some of that has to do more with what these two religions are causing at the present rather than what they did in the past. However, you get my point. I may not agree with everything these two religions promulgate,I agree much more with the Christians than I could ever with Islam, but, it is not my right or anyone elses' to declare they don't belong.

After the world's religions have been sufficiently "snuffed" out,I think those who are presently promulgating a culture of hate, will begin to focus on ethnicities. This is when the Jews will have to be very careful;although, a Jew is not really an ethnicity,it has more to do with religious practice.A Jew is someone who practices Judaism.

All I can say is that when this takes full effect,I will be one out there fighting against the system that is trying to accomplish a universal mentality. Secularism, at least in my opinion, is what is behind much of this hate we are experiencing towards different religions and ethnicities. Secularist want a society where there is nothing to argue or fight over. They think the only way to do that is to either get rid or unify all spiritual belief systems. Anyone who is spiritual,I don't care if your Christian or a Gnostic anarchical Scientologist, you had better be concerned. I know I am.

Originally posted by snafu7700
inc2006:

yes, i have done much research on the entire history of the area. i know very well that israel is just as guilty as everyone else. the point i am making, however, is that they are not the only party at fault, and yet they seem to get all the blame. there is no innocent party here. on one hand, you can tell us about all the civilians who died as a result of israeli attacks. on the other, i can tell you about all of the civilians intentionally targetted by muslim terrorists. i am not a supporter of israel, or any other entity in the ME. but if you are going to fault israel, you should be honest about why you choose to isolate israelis as being solely at fault, when in fact that are but part of the problem.

As I said above, some people just refuse to see. You aren't making much sense really or you do it purposefully. Palestine, and Iraq, and Hezbollah have all been punished one way or another wether Militarily, economically or through sanctions, house razing etc etc...No one said its just Israel. People want to know when will Israel be punished , when will economic sanctions or Un sanctions be imposed. Its already established the bad guys on ONE SIDE are punished and its already established through blacklists that Hamas is bad, so you do not make sense when you say that You know Israel is just as bad but you can't understand why its always picked on. It has never been picked on. Aid money still flows freely to Israel, Charity organizations can still collect money freely and send to settlers to purchase arms and other things, and we still freely trade with them and no embargoes imposed.

Do you understand the idea of double standards? Its when we have set a standard that we impose for one set of people but have yet another set of standards for another set of people. I don't say to treat anyone better, just to treat everyone equally.

posted by SpeakerofTruth
For sure they knew. British intelligence as early as 1941 had a complete view of the nazi's plans of "Vernichtung", extermination. They followed the build up of Auschwitz and the whole logistic and industrial complex involved, IG Farben developing Cyklon-B, the laying out of railtracks to make it an efficient machine.

They could very easy early on have hindered or seriously delayed those plans. But the Brits did nothing.

As to why, one has to remember Britain by tradition and history has been one of the most anti-semitic countries in the world. Also, just prior to WW2, in 1936 Edward VIII gave up the throne, officially because of love to a divorced American woman, Mrs. Simpson, who according to FBI reports had another loveaffair with the German ambassador to Britain, von Ribbentrop, a top nazi soon to become Foreign Minister of Germany. But Edward himself was widely known for his pre-war nazi sympathies.

A sidestep to show that British admiration for the ideology of Hitler went far up in the ruling classes. So of course they didn't bomb IG Farben or the railroads to Auschwitz, never once they did. Instead they killed hundred of thousands of innocent civilians in the firestorm of Dresden, a city without the slightest strategic or logistic value ...or those of Hamburg, Hannover and Bremen, the strongholds of anti nazi resistance in Germany. Places where Hitler never once did hold a speech or any massrally.

Errr, "Speakeroftruth", let's correct some glaring inaccuracies there.

1. Dresden, Hamburg et al were all industrial cities vital to the war machine. Hamburg was Germany's major ports, Hannover and Bremen major industrial and rail centres. Saying they had no strategic or logistical value is absurd.They were also bombed in 1945, not '41 (the firestorms, anyway).
   
2. In 1941, Britian was in no position to launch bombing raids to disrupt suspected Nazi concentration camps. Not only had we only just fought off the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain, but our limited air resources at the time were being dedicated to disrupting more strategic targets such as armament factories so we could win in North Africa.
   
3. null
   

Anyhoo...back on topic....

[edit on 11/11/06 by stumason]

Originally posted by ThePieMaN

As I said above, some people just refuse to see.

man is that ever the pot calling the kettle black. youre like a freaking broken record....."israel is bad!"....every single flipping thread you manage to put that in somewhere.

You aren't making much sense really or you do it purposefully.

dont make veiled accusations....have the intestinal fortitude to accuse me of something or keep your opinion to yourself.

No one said its just Israel.

except you....on every thread even remotely related to israel. your bias is streaming out of your pores.

People want to know when will Israel be punished

she is punished every single time a suicide bomber hits a bus, or a rocket hits an apartment complex, or it's citizens are kidnapped. just because there are no sanctions against israel for mistakes it has made in combat of cowards hiding behind civilians, doesnt mean she isnt punished. the problem is that your hatred of all things israeli blinds you so badly that you can see nothing else. pick up a history book or two.....these people have been killing each other since the time of king david. the only thing that changes with each century is who has the high ground. right now its israel, but i'm sure that wont last for long. the pendulum will swing, and the violence will continue. you might as well tell the wind not to blow. i dont know what your particular problem is with the jewish people, and i dont care. the bottom line is that, once again, regardless of your continued propaganda, nobody is innocent in this mess.

I don't think America's support has anything to do with any percieved Guilt from WWII, I attribute the US support to two minor elements and one major element. I'll start with the two minor elements.

1. Religious extremism - There are a few and let me stress few people that are both Christian and Jewish that believe the end of the world will come when they destroy or move the temple of the Roc and rebuild solomons temple. There are a few of these people that have influence. You didn't actually believe that extremism only gripped Muslims did you? (I'm being facetious btw of course everyone knows that extremism comes in all shapes, sizes, and colors.)

2. Jewish Population - We have a large Jewish population in the USA. Now i know what your thinking, and no i'm not saying that Jews run the USA or the world because they don't. However, the fact remains that nations are allies and close to peoples and nations that they can relate to. The same reason the US gets along well with all English speaking nations. Again perhaps minor but it helps.

Now the Major reason that the US supports Israel.

National Strategic Importance - The US uses Israel to keep a stragic place in the ME. We have a nation that we can use to fight proxy wars and challenge nations that don't go along with us if need be. Not only was the ME strategic during the cold war but is so today especially since it is so rich with Oil. Also Israel keeps a lot of the hatred and "heat" off of the USA. It is in the US's interest to support Israel. Although in my opinion we shouldn't be afraid to get tough with them once and awhile and remind them that they shouldn't trade our tech to China.

Originally posted by stumason

posted by SpeakerofTruth
For sure they knew. British intelligence as early as 1941 had a complete view of the nazi's plans of "Vernichtung", extermination. They followed the build up of Auschwitz and the whole logistic and industrial complex involved, IG Farben developing Cyklon-B, the laying out of railtracks to make it an efficient machine.

They could very easy early on have hindered or seriously delayed those plans. But the Brits did nothing.

As to why, one has to remember Britain by tradition and history has been one of the most anti-semitic countries in the world. Also, just prior to WW2, in 1936 Edward VIII gave up the throne, officially because of love to a divorced American woman, Mrs. Simpson, who according to FBI reports had another loveaffair with the German ambassador to Britain, von Ribbentrop, a top nazi soon to become Foreign Minister of Germany. But Edward himself was widely known for his pre-war nazi sympathies.

A sidestep to show that British admiration for the ideology of Hitler went far up in the ruling classes. So of course they didn't bomb IG Farben or the railroads to Auschwitz, never once they did. Instead they killed hundred of thousands of innocent civilians in the firestorm of Dresden, a city without the slightest strategic or logistic value ...or those of Hamburg, Hannover and Bremen, the strongholds of anti nazi resistance in Germany. Places where Hitler never once did hold a speech or any massrally.

well, 'one of the most anti-semetic countries' in the world was the one that 'granted' palestine to the jewish RELIGION, through the balfour declaration. so, it appears that all high level politics are just a puppet show to steer the masses.

all the german masons were partying with the english masons throughout all the world wars, and whatever other wars you want to mention. ordo ab chaos, man.

[edit on 11-11-2006 by billybob]