Israel Stealing Palestinian Tax Revenues & Palestine Near Economic Collapse

Originally posted by Shaktimaan
First of all I'd like to state that I am pro-Palestinian and first began learning about the conflict due to my outrage at Israel's treatment of Palestinians.

Are you trying to fool yourself? By reviewing your posts it's become crystal clear that you are 100 percent pro-Israel, with which is nothing wrong, but don't pretend you aren't. I agree, however, that objectivity should be a must, but in a complex conflict like the Israel-Palestine conflict it is hardly possible. If I, for example, condemn Israel for its brutal retaliations in Lebanon last summer I'm not objective anymore in the opinion of pro-Israelis, the same applies the other way around.

Originally posted by Shaktimaan
The system of Israel collecting tax revenue on behalf of the PA was one of the articles in the Oslo accord. It is to Israel's credit that even after the PA chose to violate that accord by sparking the second intifada Israel continued to collect and deliver taxes. However, I fail to see how anyone could expect them to continue doing so now.

However, I'd like to continue to discuss the thread's subject, rather than continuing to attempt diverting attention from the thread's subject.

Just answer this simple question: What right does Israel have to steal Palestinian tax revenues?

What right does Israel have to steal Palestinian tax revenues?

They don't. However they haven't. The money is there for Palestine. They just don't get access until Hamas recognizes Israel. Israel has a right to cut off funds (legitimate funds or not) to a government that it is in a state of war with.

And you are wrong. I am pro-Palestinan. I travel there, I spend money in the territories and I support a two-state solution and international aid to Palestine. If I appear to be solely defending Israel here it might be because there has been a lot of untrue anti-Israeli prejudice flying around these threads. If similar ludicrous claims were made about the Palestinians (as happens on some other boards I frequent) you would see me defending them in a similar way.

Originally posted by ludaChris
Ok, so by that logic, say the US dropped bombs right on the Canadian/US border, what would you say then? A spade is a spade, and act of aggression is an act of aggression. Plain and simple.

First of all you cannot use that logic. America would never do such a thing, however if say The Black Panthers dropped a bomb on the Canadian border its not an act of agression by the government. Will you hold the entire government responsible for the act of a terror group? The Al-Aqsa terrorists in Palestine do not represent the government of palestine. This is how Israel does what it does, it lumps the entirety of palestine as one big terrorist cell so they can do what they do and get away with it. Just look at your example and see what you are attemtping to compare it to.

Will you kill my entire family because my dog bit your child? Or will you try to have my dog put to sleep?


Pie

Originally posted by Shaktimaan


They don't. However they haven't. The money is there for Palestine. They just don't get access until Hamas recognizes Israel. Israel has a right to cut off funds (legitimate funds or not) to a government that it is in a state of war with.

There is already talk about reparations being deducted from those monies being held. They are going to think of a way to misle something out of the deal. They tried to snag 425Million worth of Iranian antiquity loaned by Iran to the USA for an attack made by Palestinians just because they got hold of some Iranian explosives. Meanwhile you talk about compensation of 2Mill and a few thousand acres. Obviously they value themselves higher then they value anyone else.

It's simple, they do that to create a palestinian civil war. It's very cruel, but no very surprising from the zionist government.

The Al-Aqsa terrorists in Palestine do not represent the government of palestine. This is how Israel does what it does, it lumps the entirety of palestine as one big terrorist cell so they can do what they do and get away with it. Just look at your example and see what you are attemtping to compare it to.

Pieman, I have 3 questions you can hopefully answer.

• What do you believe the proper course of action is for Israel to take and what do you think the result would look like?

• How old are you?

Shaktimaan

You suggest before that Mr Arafat should have taken that offer for 90% of Palestinian land. Why would he have accepted that offer?. Why would any sane person accept less land than he originally owned because of a agressor and that 10% of land they were taking cris-crosses your own terrioty which disrupts your whole country.

I doubt you would give 10% of your land away because someone attacked you. Hamas is a israeli creation simply because of this mentality that close enough is good enough. I bet 99.9999% of people wouldn't have accepted that offer and did what Mr Arafat did. Even if Arafat accepted it, Hamas would still be there, it wouldn't solve anything except now israel can point to a document and use that document to restore "order"


Peace at what cost......

Originally posted by ThePieMaN
The Al-Aqsa terrorists in Palestine do not represent the government of palestine.

What? Tell me exactly how you come to that conclusion when they were pretty much formed by Arafat and Fatah. Yeah, sure Hamas is the majority of the government now, but to state that they were not an instrument used by Fatah is deluding yourself.

Prove me wrong.

Originally posted by pavil

Originally posted by ThePieMaN
The Al-Aqsa terrorists in Palestine do not represent the government of palestine.

What? Tell me exactly how you come to that conclusion when they were pretty much formed by Arafat and Fatah. Yeah, sure Hamas is the majority of the government now, but to state that they were not an instrument used by Fatah is deluding yourself.

Prove me wrong.

I thought the israelis liked Fatah and didn't want to deal with Hamas?So Al-aqsa is the PLO then? What about the other Islamic group firing rockets? They are also attached? Well why is it that any terrorists operating in Palestine is assumed to be linked to the government conveniently? There are No Independant terrorists in Palestine? The kidnappers of those FOX reporters that were never heard about before were attached to the new Unity government I bet! This will be the next big discovery Im sure. Technocrats with Rockets. Lets see how many accusations are leveled against the new government within hours of their forming.

Originally posted by Shaktimaan



• What do you believe the proper course of action is for Israel to take and what do you think the result would look like?

Obviously what they are doing is not working , at least not in accomplishing peace...it seems to wok great if they are looking to get rid of a bunch of Palestinians tho.

Since you are Pro-Palestinian how would you like to see Israel handle Palestine?

Originally posted by ThePieMaN

I thought the israelis liked Fatah and didn't want to deal with Hamas?So Al-aqsa is the PLO then? What about the other Islamic group firing rockets? They are also attached? Well why is it that any terrorists operating in Palestine is assumed to be linked to the government conveniently? There are No Independant terrorists in Palestine? The kidnappers of those FOX reporters that were never heard about before were attached to the new Unity government I bet! This will be the next big discovery Im sure. Technocrats with Rockets. Lets see how many accusations are leveled against the new government within hours of their forming.

Nice proof by the way.

Truth be told, I don't think Israel "likes" any of the political leadership of Palestine that is heavily tainted by suicide bombers and the like. They felt they could at least make deals with Fatah and Arafat which is why they negotiated with them.

If Palestinians are given limited autonomy over their land and can't control Palestinians radicals from launching attacks on Israel from areas the Palestinians supposedly control, how is that in any shape Israel's fault?

I don't care if these terrorists as you yourself said, are part of the government of Palestine or not. I would expect the government of Palestine to be able to control it's own citizens and maintain control over those areas which it is in charge of. Otherwise, maybe they shouldn't be in power yet if they can't even maintain a semblance of control of the situation. The P.A. in general has done a poor job of policing it's own citizens to maintain peace.

Hamas has a military and a political wing the military wing is under the control of the political wing.
Fatah has a military and a political wing and the military wing is under the control of the political wing.

The only people you can say are not linked to the government directly is Islamic Jihad as they do not seem to have a political wing in Palestine only the Al-Quds Brigades.

That the Palestinians can't control large segments of their own people from launching attacks on Israel indicates to me that they are just not ready for self rule yet. They need to be able to control their side of the border before any lasting peace can happen.

I am sick and tired of the lame excuse of "everyone here has a gun... how do you expect up to control anything with Israel attacking us". The P.A. had ample to to build an infrastructure, which they had in place with joint Israeli-P.A. cooperation on policing matters, to bring fringe radicals under control. Arafat did nothing major in this respect and now the Palestinians are reaping the "rewards" of such failed leadership.

Israel is no angel in all of this but for Pete's sake the Palestinians do everything possible to shoot themselves in the foot as well.

yes and according to Iranian and Palestinian TV, the Israeli's are also stealing the eyes of Muslim children.

yes and according to Iranian and Palestinian TV, the Israeli's are also stealing the eyes of Muslim children.

They use them to make matzoh.

You suggest before that Mr Arafat should have taken that offer for 90% of Palestinian land. Why would he have accepted that offer?. Why would any sane person accept less land than he originally owned because of a agressor and that 10% of land they were taking cris-crosses your own terrioty which disrupts your whole country.

Well, first off, let's get the numbers right. It was 95% (after a few years) and then another 2% from Israel. So, 97% of the acerage you are discussing was the offer.

Secondly, the Palestinians never owned Palestine. Palestine was never a country. Whether the Palestinians deserve their own country or not and where the borders are is a very seperate issue. Until 1988 the west bank belonged to Jordan. Four years after Jordan gave it up the Oslo Accords took hold, which pretty much guaranteed the Palestinians most of that land. But not all of it.

Why should west jerusalem be in Palestine? It was never supposed to be. In fact, it was never supposed to be part of Jordan or Israel either. But I don't think it is going to be a UN zone anytime soon. That said, you may argue that Israel has no claim to Jerusalem, but the Palestinians certainly don't.

Now, whether or not the offer was perfect is also irrelevant. Arafat chose to walk away and instigate the second intifada. Do you actually feel that this was a wise decision that reflects the best interests of average Palestinans? Was it worth thousands of lives to gain 3% of your desired state back? (which is not going to happen.) Especially considering that he could have made a counter-offer yet chose not to? Clinton begged him to. Barak was open to it. Yet Arafat chose war.

Look at the war-ravaged places in this world. Albania, Darfur, etc. Peace is only obtained through compromise. Israel gave Arafat almost every concession he wanted in 2000. He didn't get the right of return, and THAT was the sticking point. Right of return would destroy Israel and everyone knows it. What is the point of insisting on the right of return to Israel when you are already getting your own Palestinian state? Heck, most of Palestine is occupied by Jordan. Millions of Palestinian refugees were once Jordanian citizens.

Why should there be three Palestinian states and no Jewish one at all? Was that dream worth the intifada?

Even if Arafat accepted it, Hamas would still be there, it wouldn't solve anything except now israel can point to a document and use that document to restore "order"

Well why is it that any terrorists operating in Palestine is assumed to be linked to the government conveniently

This is a common argument as well as a common complaint from the Israeli camp. Whether the terrorist groups are operating alone or under the guidance of Hamas/PA/PLO/etc., the end result is a validation of the Israeli criticism that they have no partner on the Palestinian side. It is a common fact the the ME peace process has long been held hostage by the most extreme factions on both sides. A single person can scuttle everything if they wish. You don't want peace? Kill Rabin. You don't like the terms of Oslo? Don't follow them. Hamas didn't and now Oslo is dead.

That said, Israel's population generally abides by the treaties set by the government. For one reason or another, Palestine's people do not. It doesn't matter much if it is all organized by Hamas or not. The end result is that neither Hamas nor the PA are in any position to make a peace deal or call for a cease fire if they can't enforce it. And Israel responding to rocket attacks is not a violation of a cease fire. Do you guys get the concept of a cease-fire? It requires both sides to cease fighting.

Before you complain that Hamas is unable (not unwilling) to stop the attacks, remember that this is not a new strategy. During the time that Israel and Lebanon had a treaty in effect (when the PLO was ensconced in the south) Arafat would routinely send fighters to attack Israel through Jordan. In this way he could attack Israel yet any military response Israel made would be a breach of the treaty with Lebanon. Israel actually weathered out the attacks for a while in an attempt to find another solution before attacking the PLO in Lebanon. No alternative presented itself then because Arafat was not trying to be true to the spirit of the treaty. It's the same deal with Hamas. A cease-fire from them is meaningless if they (as the government of Palestine) refuse to even attempt to enforce it nationally.

As someone pointed out, even if Arafat accepted the offer, Hamas would still be there. Likewise, even if Hamas chooses peace *fill in the blank* will still be there. You can not have a peace process that depends on the complete fulfillment of every radical's deepest wishes. I don't see any alternative to Israel taking military action in this situation. As you both said above, peace treaties and cease fires don't matter. Meaning also that Israeli concessions alone will never be enough to achieve peace. They must fight terrorists as though there was no peace and strive for peace as though there was no terrorism. or something like that.