Explosions - Bottom floor WTC

Originally posted by LeftBehind
. Just because the the elevators did not service every floor does not mean that the shafts stopped at each local elevator, nor does it mean that they weren't open to each other laterally.

The whole reason elevators in tall buildings don't go all the way to the top or bottom in one go, is so they don't have one big shaft which could act like a chimney in a fire. So no, the shafts would not have been connected.

I would also doubt there would be enough fuel left, after the initial explosion, to have gone down the elevator shafts.

LeftBehind, I'm not sure you know what an overpressure is, but they don't pick and choose where to go as if they have some intelligence about them, wandering through so many elevator shafts (that don't even have open shafts connecting them to the main freight!) like some dumb animal working its way through a maze.

If anything, you guys would have had it right the first time when you suggested it went straight down. Obviously it did not. You're not going to tell me now that it took a bunch of side-routes instead to get to the same place. You're reaching, very pathetically. Next you'll tell me that the FAE went to the lobby, walked across to another elevator and then went down into the basement. I don't know why I even took you off of ignore.

Originally posted by bsbray11

If anything, you guys would have had it right the first time when you suggested it went straight down. Obviously it did not.

According to who? You?

Sorry if I don't take your word on it.

Actual journalists disagree with you, and until you provide evidence to the contrary go ahead and ignore what you don't want to hear, you seem to do it anyway.

www.usatoday.com...

Elevator shafts worked like chimneys, funneling unbearable smoke to floors above the crashes. The shafts also channeled burning jet fuel throughout both towers. Fire moved not only up and down but also side to side, from shaft to shaft, unleashing explosions in elevator lobbies and in restrooms next to the shafts.

Do you have a source Anok?

It seems the opposite was true, should we just take your word for it as well?


And before you guys start claiming that this is based on some "untrustworthy" government report, please realize that they did their own research.

USA TODAY made an intensive effort over the past six months to determine what happened to the World Trade Center elevators. Reporters interviewed more than 50 people who were in elevators at the time the jets hit or moments before. The newspaper also reviewed 2,500 pages of accounts written by survivors and reports in other media outlets, examined architectural plans and spoke to elevator experts and mechanics who worked at the Trade Center.

Emphasis mine.

They talked to the people who actually worked with these elevators everyday.

The experts told USAtoday the exact opposite of what you two would have us believe.


Let me guess, the elevator mechanics are now part of the conspiracy?



[edit on 7-11-2006 by LeftBehind]

Originally posted by bsbray11
First of all, if you're referring to CDI, then guess what? They were "in on it", at least in the uppermost levels. They were government-contracted, they came in, they did the clean-up and helped ship all the evidence out, get rid of it. They did the same thing with the Murrah Federal Building during OKC, and undetonated charges were found within that building!

Typical mentality of a 9/11 conspiracy theorist. The very second someone comes up with credible evidence that debunks your theory...

"THEY'RE IN ON IT!!!"

You could say the same if any other demolition company in the world did the jobs that had to be done after 9/11. The government hired someone to clean up. That's not evidence clearing... it's cleaning up.

What'd you expect? Them to do it themselves by hand?

So let's add to the amount of people who are "in on it" shall we?

Originally posted by doctorfungi
Typical mentality of a 9/11 conspiracy theorist. The very second someone comes up with credible evidence that debunks your theory...

"THEY'RE IN ON IT!!!"

What are you talking about, dude? They were referenced as a source of information. No actual information was even given!

One day when you play the incredulous card, no one's going to buy it, and you're going to have to try for something with some actual substance to it.

The topic at hand is why there were massive explosions in the basement of WTC1.

[edit on 7-11-2006 by bsbray11]

Originally posted by bsbray11
What are you talking about, dude? They were referenced as a source of information. No actual information was even given!

My original comment was stating that a report released by Controlled Demolition Inc stated that the CT's are baseless. CDI is an organisation whos experience in demolition exceeds any other company in the world. These guys were on site after 9/11 and for that reason have a pretty good understanding of what happened there.

They offered a valid report showing scientific evidence that the towers were not brought down by demolitions. The only response they got is that they were "in on it" simply because they were hired to clean up a mess they were capable of doing.

One day when you play the incredulous card, no one's going to buy it, and you're going to have to try for something with some actual substance to it.

I've tried scientifically proven evidence against the conspiracy theories. I've been accused of working for the government, threatened, abused and cursed at but that's about as far as scientific evidence against a crack pot theory will get you.

Any theory that defies logic, practicallity and common sense as much as 9/11 conspiracy theories has every reason to have the incredulous card to be played against it.

Originally posted by doctorfungi

What'd you expect? Them to do it themselves by hand?

So let's add to the amount of people who are "in on it" shall we?

1) They do it all the time in plane crashes. Into fields, buildings, water, moon. So ya they should have done the same thing.

2) Nobody ever got a chance to study the metal at ground zero unless they had NIST or FEMA on their jackets.

3) There was never an independent investigation on why 9/11 happened. And if you bring up the 9/11 commission you need shot right between the damn eyes. It was a whitewash so people would stfu about 9/11. Fortunately for people like us we aren't shutting up They need a real Investigation PERIOD.

4) CDI is as Bunk as McVeigh bombing Murrah himself.

So why don't you go do some real research and come back to the table with something good to add to this conversation..

Ohh we can bring up a whole 9000 other things if we want.. But explosions at the bottom of the tower, it was stated on NEWS and elsewhere..

www.studyof911.com...

Have a nice day.

Originally posted by LeftBehind
Do you have a source Anok?
It seems the opposite was true, should we just take your word for it as well?

No source I'm afraid, maybe you should actually go do some research instead of relying on what other people are telling you, eh?

You have no idea whether elevators shafts went all the way from the bottom to the top? Yet you argue, just from what came out in a state controlled newspaper, that that is what must have happened? Without even researching whether it could be possible? And then you come here and try to argue something you are obviously unqualified to argue?

So no don't just take my word for it, or that of a journo either, one of us is known and has been proven to lie...

1) They do it all the time in plane crashes. Into fields, buildings, water, moon. So ya they should have done the same thing.

Cleaning up a plane is hardly the same as cleaning up 2x100+ story buildings, 1x40+ story building and demolishing a further building (WTC 6). These guys needed to be called in to do the job.

Put it this way, if you have a tap leaking - you can fix it yourself. But if your whole water system explodes - You'll need outside help.

2) Nobody ever got a chance to study the metal at ground zero unless they had NIST or FEMA on their jackets.

And? Your'e suggesting that the whole of NIST and FEMA were in on 9/11? What's your point buddy.

If anyone other than the scholars for 9/11 truth investigated the metal you'd say they were working with the government aswell. Remember, 9/11 was a crime. A criminal investigation needs to be done. That means evidence needs to be kept secure out of the way of sabotage.

What's to stop your 'independant investegators' planting evidence of thermite to push their anti-government agenda?

3) There was never an independent investigation on why 9/11 happened. And if you bring up the 9/11 commission you need shot right between the damn eyes. It was a whitewash so people would stfu about 9/11. Fortunately for people like us we aren't shutting up They need a real Investigation PERIOD.

Well to be honest I can see you saying that about any investigation. Read the 9/11 Commision report. Judging by the level of intelligence you show towards this topic I'm guessing you haven't even touched the thing.

Bin Laden admitted to 9/11. You can scream "FAKE" at his videos as much as you want but the fact is they aren't doctored. That is a proven fact.

4) CDI is as Bunk as McVeigh bombing Murrah himself.

Put up or shut up. Prove it buddy.

So why don't you go do some real research and come back to the table with something good to add to this conversation..

It doesn't matter what I bring to the table your CT'er mentality won't listen to anything I have to say. That's a fact and you know it.

I've done my research buddy. A LOT of it. You're theory is baseless and that's been proven. You ask questions, demand answers right? At least have the decency to listen to them.

Ohh we can bring up a whole 9000 other things if we want..

Which have all been debunked.

But explosions at the bottom of the tower, it was stated on NEWS and elsewhere..

www.studyof911.com...

As for your video. It's been proven in the book "Debunking 9/11 Myths: Why conspiracy theories can't stand up to the facts" that alot of the quotes from these early hours have been taked out of context and/or been withdrawn by the people saying them. Oh but they work for the government right?

www.debunking911.com...

Have a nice day.

Will do.

[edit on 7/11/2006 by doctorfungi]

[edit on 7/11/2006 by doctorfungi]

As has been stated here, and proven over and over through references to NIST documents, as well WTC specification sites, there was only one elevator (one of the freight elevators) that serviced ALL the floors of each tower. And there was some one in that elevator, below the impact point, when the plane hit WTC 1. And the people on that elevator survived with minor injuries (one man broke his tibia and knee, the other man was uninjured). No sentient fireball went down that elevator shaft and caused the damage that occurred in B4. Once you eliminate that elevator shaft (which has been done), causing an explosion/collapse on B4 gets a bit more difficult.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Please keep in mind that not a single elevator was reported to have been slammed to the bottom of its shaft. In fact, the firemen who arrived at the buildings post-impact made the judgment call that the elevators were probably not operational (in fact, I believe their transmission was that the elevators cables were probably about to fail) not because they were all blown like pistons to the basement levels. In fact, the firemen were wrong, and handfuls of people with enough guts to take the risk continued to escape from the buildings via a number of the lower level elevators.

This point is actually quite important to this debate. It's important enough that we ought to take the time to list every elevator that:

1. Had people on it at the time of the impact who survived because they didn't get shot like a bullet through the bottom of the building.
2. Were used in any floor below the impact during the post-impact evacuation.
3. Had "burning rivulets of fire" witnessed (because you can't have an FAE and "burning jet fuel" at the same time.

Remember - the omnipotent and omnipresent FAEs were supposed to be so powerful they were able to:

1. Blow 20 foot marble slabs off the lobby walls.
2. Cause an explosion/collapse on the B4 level.
3. Cause a collapse on the 22nd floor.
4. And, if I remember right, even accused of killing some one who was halfway between the two buildings in the tunnel connecting them.

So if they're going to do all that, they definitely have to get the elevators that were in they're way to causing all this lower level damage out of the way first.

Originally posted by doctorfungi
Would someone care to explain to me what on earth an explosion 90 floors below impact would do to effect a top to bottom collapse other than risk exposure for the people who placed them?

The trade towers CLEARLY started collapsing at the top. There is NOTHING a bomb 90 floors below the impact point that went un-noticed by thousands of people would have done to help bring that building down.

This is totally false. Remember that the core was attached to the outer columns with not only the floor trusses but the hat truss at the top. Taking out the core would essentially cause the building's exterior to collapse at the weekest point (the impact zone). I don't know how many times I have to tell people this.

Originally posted by doctorfungi

I have studied the summary of the report by FEMA, The American Society of Civil Engineers and several other professional engineering organizations. These experts have given in detail the effects on the Towers by the impact of the commercial aircraft. I have also read Professor Jones' (referred to) 42 page unpublished report. In my understanding of structural design and the properties of structural steel I find Professor Jones' thesis that planted explosives (rather than fire from the planes) caused the collapse of the Towers, very unreliable.

D. Allan Firmage
Structural Engineer - 57 years

57 years of structural engineering experience isn't a walk in the park. After 57 years of experience... you know your stuff.

I haven't looked into Firmage much but what I have come across it that he wrote an ethics book on engineering. Could you supply a bio of this man so we can see what experience he would have in this matter? Thanks.

Originally posted by LeftBehind
Maybe you should have done a little more research before posting that giant essay based on the false premise of a single express elevator.

Maybe you should read a little more carefully before accussing someone else of not doing their research. There were other express elevators that only went to the ground floor. There was only ONE express elevator that went BELOW the ground floor. Got it yet?

Originally posted by LeftBehind

Originally posted by bsbray11

If anything, you guys would have had it right the first time when you suggested it went straight down. Obviously it did not.

According to who? You?

Sorry if I don't take your word on it.

Actual journalists disagree with you, and until you provide evidence to the contrary go ahead and ignore what you don't want to hear, you seem to do it anyway.

www.usatoday.com...

Elevator shafts worked like chimneys, funneling unbearable smoke to floors above the crashes. The shafts also channeled burning jet fuel throughout both towers. Fire moved not only up and down but also side to side, from shaft to shaft, unleashing explosions in elevator lobbies and in restrooms next to the shafts.

I can't believe you're seriously asking us to accept journalists as experts on this matter.

Enclosures for vertical shafts, including stairways and transfer corridors, elevator hoistways, and mechanical or utility shafts were required to be 2 h [that's 2 hours] fire rated construction. Protection of vertical shafts is intended to limit the spread of fire and smoke from floor to floor.

wtc.nist.gov...

[edit on 11-7-2006 by Valhall]

Originally posted by Valhall
This point is actually quite important to this debate. It's important enough that we ought to take the time to list every elevator that:

1. Had people on it at the time of the impact who survived because they didn't get shot like a bullet through the bottom of the building.
2. Were used in any floor below the impact during the post-impact evacuation.
3. Had "burning rivulets of fire" witnessed (because you can't have an FAE and "burning jet fuel" at the same time.

This sounds like a great project. Have you started to gather any of this information yet? If so and you want some help, I could try and find more info on this also. I think a good research project would be to list every elevator and what happened in and around them at the time of impact and afterwords. Great idea. I'll start to try and look for information. It will probably take awhile but I think it would be important to understanding the so called "magic fuel theory".

Originally posted by Valhall
I can't believe you're seriously asking us to accept journalists as experts on this matter.

Right, so I'm supposed to believe you because?


What I'm saying is that the people who wrote the article have done more research on this than any of you have. They have done what all many complain wasn't done.

An independent report, even if it was only on the elevators.

Since some of you seem to be skimming and not even reading the artice.

www.usatoday.com...

USA TODAY made an intensive effort over the past six months to determine what happened to the World Trade Center elevators. Reporters interviewed more than 50 people who were in elevators at the time the jets hit or moments before. The newspaper also reviewed 2,500 pages of accounts written by survivors and reports in other media outlets, examined architectural plans and spoke to elevator experts and mechanics who worked at the Trade Center.

As soon as any of you do the part bolded above, then maybe you will have a leg to stand on.


At least take the time to read the article before you expect us to dismiss them becasue they are mere "journalists"

Why should we believe you, a mere message board poster?

Please keep in mind that not a single elevator was reported to have been slammed to the bottom of its shaft.

That's a little misleading, as hardly any of them did not fall down the shafts even if they stopped before they hit the bottom.

Most deaths occurred in the express elevators in both towers that went from the lobbies to the 78th floors and in the elevators near the top floors of the buildings. Sixty-four of the twin towers' 198 elevators had cables that ran through the floors devastated by the hijacked hijacked planes, and the cables were likely destroyed.

Forty-eight of these 64 elevators had no known survivors. Even in the elevators where people escaped — mostly because the doors happened to be open at the moment of impact — they left behind a large number of people who were burned to death or were killed when the buildings collapsed.

The loss of life was almost complete inside the south tower's 10 giant express elevators, which were shuttling evacuees from the 78th floor to the ground floor after the north tower was hit. Only four people survived.

The four survivors — two each from adjacent elevators — were in elevators that plunged and were stopped by the emergency brakes 6 to 10 feet above the lobby floor. About 40 people died in those two elevators. Doomed passengers called loved ones from two other south tower express elevators stuck near the 12th floor in one case and the 19th floor in another.

The express elevators in the north tower had eight survivors in two elevators. In the other eight express elevators, nobody is known to have lived.

Why is that reputable journalists who do a ton of research and actually talked to the people who were there that day are dismissed, but a theology proffesor and a physicist who didn't even try to do the same amount of research are believed?

Why is it so hard to accept that something could travel from shaft to shaft, these elevators were packed very close together.

Elevator Layout

Ok, now for the sake of argument since many of you think I'm wrong, what else could it have been?

Anyone have some evidence that the damage to the elevators, and damage in the lower levels was caused by something other than burning fuel?

Even Willie Rodriguez says that he smelled fuel once me made it to C level, how was he smelling jet fuel, if as you claim, only one elevator shaft could possibly allow passage that far?

Easy answer, the core was more interconnected than you think, and the jet fuel travelled easily between tightly packed shafts in the core.

Originally posted by Griff
There were other express elevators that only went to the ground floor. There was only ONE express elevator that went BELOW the ground floor. Got it yet?

No, there was one elevator that went from the top to the very bottom. The elevators still went to the basement floors and traveled in the same shafts the other local elevators used to move people from the lobbies to the basements.

Are you seriously trying to claim that only one elevator could reach the basement floors?

The core, riddled with elevator shafts, went all the way to the basements.


And again, what else could it have been?

Let's put forth some alternate theories and see if they stand up better or worse than what I am putting forth.

If you have nothing other than, "I Believe there were bombs, so I'm right" then excuse me for being skeptical.

[edit on 7-11-2006 by LeftBehind]

Originally posted by LeftBehind
Let's put forth some alternate theories and see if they stand up better or worse than what I am putting forth.

If you have nothing other than, "I Believe there were bombs, so I'm right" then excuse me for being skeptical.

I don't have to put forth a scenario. It has been proven that jet fuel could not do the damage done. Now it is up to the official people to come up with the scenario that DOES fit the facts.

Originally posted by LeftBehind

Originally posted by Valhall
I can't believe you're seriously asking us to accept journalists as experts on this matter.

Right, so I'm supposed to believe you because?

Because the information I provided came straight out of the final NIST report. They aren't my words, they're NIST's words.

The local elevators in a zone were stacked one on top the other for that zone. But the shaft terminated and was given over to office space at the lowest floor of each zone. The building was in three vertical zones. Only local elevators in the respective zones were stacked. Elevators were not stacked from one zone to the next. It's in the NIST report. I gave the link.

Originally posted by Valhall

Originally posted by LeftBehind

Originally posted by Valhall
I can't believe you're seriously asking us to accept journalists as experts on this matter.

Right, so I'm supposed to believe you because?

Because the information I provided came straight out of the final NIST report. They aren't my words, they're NIST's words.

The local elevators in a zone were stacked one on top the other for that zone. But the shaft terminated and was given over to office space at the lowest floor of each zone. The building was in three vertical zones. Only local elevators in the respective zones were stacked. Elevators were not stacked from one zone to the next. It's in the NIST report. I gave the link.

ValHall.... pwned TruthBehind.