European Union, a military superpower?

Originally posted by pavil

Originally posted by DrBones666
Personally, I'd rather see the European Union take the reigns as the world superpower off America, Europeans are more open to diplomatic channels than Military hedgemony.

Please take a look at history not Just post WWII. Europe has been the cause of much grief that is currently going on in the world. Don't take this a EU bashing, currently they are good allies and friends and do well in the world community. I just point out that it wasn't always so.

I simply think that Europe would be far more responsible in terms of keeping world peace than America has ever been, not least with the current administration.

Tell that to all the colonies that Europe used and abused over the years and then left a mess border wise in Africa and the Middle East. Yes, Europe currently is peaceful mainly due to Americas emergence as a Superpower. Europe was not so Peaceful prior to America's rise to Superpower status, consult your history books if you doubt that.

Also, I'd rather see European culture take over as popular instead of the Americanisation we have of my country currently (Australia), I'm sick to death of American Coca-Colonisation of the world.

Soon you will be complaining about the Chinese-Colonization or the Euro-Colonization of the world. Right now it's America's turn to be envied/despised, just like it was the British Empire's turn. No one likes to play second fiddle in the world orchestra and everyone thinks they can be the better first violin. Same as it ever was, Same as it ever was.

My friend, believe me, I have studied History very thoroughly, and am working towards a doctorate in it, I know that Europeans have been warlike, all the way up to WW2 and even a little beyond (think cold war,) but I sincerely believe that they have learnt their lesson from History, of which, theirs is far greater than America's and would be a far more responsible world superpower than the money-hungry warmongers that the American administration has become.

I would prefer Europeanisation of culture to Americanisation, why? Because Europe has hundreds of years of steady cultural growth, the baroque, the enlightenment, the reformation etc, and has been the hub of world culture for many centuries. What has America given us? Well, after Jazz, and Rock and Roll, we have a bunch of trumped up Karaoke singers chewing bubblegum, wearing hotpants, and rapping about bling-bling and popping caps to an electronic "organised noise" which could hardly be described as music.

Simply put, America has become a cultural wasteland, and is still determined to spread their rubbish as far as possible thanks to corporations, and unfortunately, unthinking teenagers buy into it because the advertisements tell them that it is the "cool" thing to do.

In all aspects of culture, history, and military diplomacy, Europe has emerged as superior to America, and why shouldn't they? They've been around for far longer, and their education systems are infinitely better than America's bullet-ridden school hallways.

Before I get slammed, I will state once more for the record that I am not from either America, or Europe, so my emotional bias factor in this regard is negligble, these are simply the conclusions I have come to through the study of History.

I would prefer Europeanisation of culture to Americanisation, why? Because Europe has hundreds of years of steady cultural growth, the baroque, the enlightenment, the reformation etc, and has been the hub of world culture for many centuries. What has America given us? Well, after Jazz, and Rock and Roll, we have a bunch of trumped up Karaoke singers chewing bubblegum, wearing hotpants, and rapping about bling-bling and popping caps to an electronic "organised noise" which could hardly be described as music.

What has Europe given us in the last 10 years? You are taking things that happened hundreds of years ago (Enlightenment? Reformation? we have moved past the rennaisance) and saying how America has only given us Jazz? America has the digital computer, the internet, Hollywood (I personally don't like a lot of the stuff that comes out of there, but it seems like the world does...), Rap (again, I don't like it but it is fairly popular in other parts of the world), Science Fiction (I think we were the big guys in starting that, but I am not totally sure) and if you want to bring the Enlightenment into this, we showed the world that Democracy works.

Seriously, what culture has Europe shown us recently? I can't think of any current European bands (everyone knew about the beetles back then), their movies aren't very common and really nothing spectacular and there isn't really anything else big coming out of there.

Originally posted by DrBones666

My friend, believe me, I have studied History very thoroughly, and am working towards a doctorate in it, I know that Europeans have been warlike, all the way up to WW2 and even a little beyond (think cold war,) but I sincerely believe that they have learnt their lesson from History,

And what exactly do your base your belief that they have learned from history? Not to pick on Europeans, as all nations can go down the "dark side" but what the heck happened in the Balkans? Surely Europe in particular, would be very in tune with genocide and yet what occurred?

For all the civilizing that can go on, mankind is prone it seems to horrible acts towards their fellow humans just for being different. Europe has had not conflicts on the continent basically due to the overall economic conditions developed after WWII.

I would prefer Europeanisation of culture to Americanisation, why? Because Europe has hundreds of years of steady cultural growth, the baroque, the enlightenment, the reformation etc, and has been the hub of world culture for many centuries. What has America given us?

Since you are a history buff, what major worldwide cultural phenom has Europe been responsible for since WWII except for the Beatles, which was huge. Europe today puts out just as much drivel as America does, which doesn't give me much joy. I get that you do not like American Culture much but, frankly, it's not your culture. I always find it funny that America is bashed for it's success in ventures. If you don't like the music or movie then don't buy it. It's pretty simple.

America has about as many Nobel prize winners as all of Europe combined. To state that America is somehow devoid of any merit is tenuous at best.

In all aspects of culture, history, and military diplomacy, Europe has emerged as superior to America, and why shouldn't they? They've been around for far longer, and their education systems are infinitely better than America's bullet-ridden school hallways.

Well I for one, have only been shot at once at school and they missed. That's a joke, in case you haven't figured that out yet.

Just because you hear bad things and extrapolate them to be widespread does not make it the truth. No one nation is superior to any other one in all aspects, as you seem to state. The above statement by you shows your prejudice.

You can believe what you want but America is currently the still riding as a Superpower Culturally, Economically, Militarily and Diplomatically. To state otherwise is inncorrect. Is America perfect, No. Is any country perfect? There is always room for improvement. America's moment in the sun will not last forever, but for the foreseeable future America is still the world's sole Hyperpower. History will be the judge of America's turn at the helm of world affairs, just as every other nation has been judged.

just to add my views, foreign entertainment does not exist in america because most often or not american citizens won’t pay into it.

the person above say, he knows of no british bands come again? 10 years ago 25% of all global music production came from the united kingdom (not sure what it is now) maybe its still the same I just remember being taught that by my music teacher.

we have had massive bands that have been HUGE, but they failed to make it in america because they aren’t american (simple as) oasis, robbie williams just to name a few in recent years (spice girls did okay though)

films, britain have only just started producing films in the last 10 years...but we have no hollywood and our films are low budget, but even though they are low budget we have made some cracking films (just to name a few from the top of my head).

trainspotting
full monty
snatch
lock stock
harry potters
football factory
green street (i believe you call it 'the yank')
28 days later

i actually agree with ‘drbones666’ i'm sick of seeing hollywood changing human history to make out america saves the day all the time whether its from ww2 films to vietnam to the patriot (revolutionary).

theres even a new film coming out with tom cruise that shows ^an american^ winning ‘the battle of Britain’ (its embarrassing)!!

enjoyment.independent.co.uk... - actual 'FACT' the character cruise is playing recorded no confirmed kills.

america wouldn't like it if in 60 years down the line a film is made that shows the US starting the war on terror (unable to finish it) and the UK winning it see people tend to remember history that way because they've seen a massive box office film that sticks in their mind.

fiction wise though, ive seen america save the world against aliens, saved the world from a comet, rambo wiping out the whole russian army single-handly , godzilla running through new york.

grrr lets see norway save the world for once lol, something different

[edit on 4-11-2006 by st3ve_o]

Originally posted by st3ve_o
the person above say, he knows of no british bands

come again? 10 years ago 25% of all global music production came from the united kingdom
we have had massive bands that have been HUGE, but they fail to make it in america because they aren’t american (simple as) oasis, robbie williams just to name a few in recent years.

Just for the record, I never said I didn't know of any British Bands. I said "worldwide" phenomena. Oasis and Robbie Williams just don't cut it. U2 does however, not just because the "made" it in America. Now that we are thoroughly off topic.....back to the show.

I was the guy who said I didn't know any European bands. I was actually thinking more continental Europe though, as I can remember spice girls *shudder* and a few others (although I can't think of too many that were really big in the same way as Eminem*shudder again* or the like, although that could be because they aren't as big assholes as some of the American bands.

A few things about the movies. First, I never said that I didn't like European movies, just that they didn't make blockbusters that were popular in other countries. I am personally a big fan of lower budget and foreign films, and I personally enjoyed 28 days later, as well as some of their older films (I have a problem with names). I actually don't like American film that much, becasuse even the good ones mess up a lot (ie. in Black Hawk Down, there was no real Spc. Grimes. They changed a real person's name because they didn't want to show someone serving a 30 sentence for child molestation). Second, isn't Harry Potter an American film that was shot in England? The original director was American, and I think it is an American company.

Okay, no hating on Europeans or European countries people. Thats not right.

If there was no Europe there'd be no America. America, Canada, and Mexico onto the Central Americas is all a direct product of European colonization. The difference between Canadians and Americans, to this modern day? The Canadians fought for the Crown during America's Revolutionary War, while the Americans fought against the Crown. America burned down Toronto(York), and the Canadians/English burnt down Washington DC ..

So Europeans and Americans should be friends. one in the same. It's just that America right now has a really #ty administration. If America starts leaning leftward again in politics, with a democratic congress, a democratic house/senate, a democratic president, we will be able to repair some of the foreign ties that Bush has broken. I sincerely believe that, at least with the leftward leaning European countries.

I think if the EU becomes as powerful as the Soviet Union was someday that America would be by its side, and they'd go in and knock the # out of 'em together (quote from Iron Eagle, a movie).

Originally posted by PBscientist
Second, isn't Harry Potter an American film that was shot in England? The original director was American, and I think it is an American company.

nah man its classed as british, explanation:-

news.bbc.co.uk...

Originally posted by st3ve_o
harry potters

I don't much care the other points in this thread but there is one thing that I will NOT stand for, and that is mis-claimed movies. Now, Warner Brothers has produced and funded all the HP movies so far, they are shot in the UK because that's where the story takes place and they have the scenery to match it. No 12th century castles here in the US I'm afraid.

It's an American 'backed' film.

how can it be classed as American when:-

. a British women wrote the potter storys
. the storys are based on British culture
. the movies was produced in Britain
. all British actors were acting in the film

I support Manchester United football club (English club/English name/play in England), we don’t have 1 American footballer in the team, yet malcolm glazer bought the club last year, it doesn't mean Manchester United are an American sports team.

A lot of Japanese businessmen own American sports teams, yet it doesn't mean these sports teams are Japanese.

[edit on 5-11-2006 by st3ve_o]

Dude I had this reply written about how the examples you used are not the same and how the film is American produced and owned but then it occurred to me how Fing ridicules this conversation is. My initial post was not meant to go much more beyond a half serious reply.

I know, i can't believe i'm arguing about harry potter







[edit on 5-11-2006 by st3ve_o]

Given all out war( minus nukes) with the EU the US could wage war from a distance given our ability to control the seas. That would then give us the ability to control the skys. We could then sweep in on the ground. But then again this wont be happening anytime soon, at least not in my lifetime and I'm pretty young. We need their political support and they need ours.

As has been seen in recent times an attack on us is an attack on them( at least the UK) and an attack on them is an attack on us. We're brothers.

um, the US failed in vietnam (got beat by a bunch of 3rd worlders),

failing in iraq, putting a country on the brink of civil war.
inwhich the war was named 'operation iraqi freedom'

their troops cannot control anything, all america can do is launch airstrikes....but europe is a continent of multiple nations with huge projection power (both air and sea) that can hit the united states in every direction and europe's training of troops generally seems better than americas.

(summary) no i don't think the US could win a war against the EU.

[edit on 15-11-2006 by Sepiroth]

Originally posted by SenHeathen
Given all out war( minus nukes) with the EU the US could wage war from a distance given our ability to control the seas. That would then give us the ability to control the skys. We could then sweep in on the ground. But then again this wont be happening anytime soon, at least not in my lifetime and I'm pretty young. We need their political support and they need ours.

As has been seen in recent times an attack on us is an attack on them( at least the UK) and an attack on them is an attack on us. We're brothers.

More "we have a bigger wang" crap.

But, for the sake of measuring one's wang, I say this:

The combined miltary of the EU is bigger than that of the US. You would probably, after some time, take the seas (after serious losses, I might add), but Air superiority and this "sweep on the ground" are just in fantasy la-la land...

I back up my naval claim with an anecdote my brother told me about his time aboard the HMS Iron Duke. During an exercise, the Iron Duke had to escape and evade a US destroyer and a submarine. Not only did it do this (by fooling the Destroyer commander with it's radar), but it then "sank" the US sub and came back and finished off the destroyer as it was milling about looking for the phantom ship that they lured it with.

And that was with a Frigate.. We now have much better toys to play with ..

You may some cutting edge stuff over us euro's, but as the famous saying about Yank's goes:

"All the gear, but no idea"

"All the gear, but no idea"

The above is so true, yes America have all the big guns but they don't have the same skill as that of us. Take vietnam for example, America had all the technological advantages but when it came down to it they didn't have a clue how to operate in that landscape. They were no good at fighting in the dense forests because they simply were not up to the standards.

We may not have Stealth (yet) and all the other advanced technologies but I truly belive that the British forces are the best trained in the world, just look at the SAS.

O, and PBscientist - America may have invented the internet but the world wide web was infact developed by a British man called Tim Berners.
Also without us Brits you wouldn't even have Stealth fighters or any other super-aircraft. Most modern inventions can be traced back to Britain, the quality of our engineering is truly spectacular as it is known. Without Britain starting the industrial revolution the world as we know it would be truly unrecognizable.

Well that was fun, rant over.

[edit on 15-11-2006 by Thirst]

Originally posted by stumason
And that was with a Frigate.. We now have much better toys to play with

..

m8 it's those type45's that sound impressive to me, they say each one holds more firepower than all the fleet of our type42's PUT TOGETHER

www.freerepublic.com...
en.wikipedia.org...



[edit on 15-11-2006 by st3ve_o]

Originally posted by Thirst
We may not have Stealth (yet) and all the other advanced technologies but I truly belive that the British forces are the best trained in the world, just look at the SAS.

stealth is no big secret anymore, just look at europes ucav designs - neuron, raven/corax (to name a few).

besides even the typhoon has stealth capablitys and european countrys will have the f-35 in 5 years anyway.

When the EU constitution is ratified then you can start working on becoming a unifed Military Superpower. As it currently stands while the EU member nations have good training and hardware, the intergration of all of those member nation's armed forces into one unifed command has yet to materialize.

Again, I point out to the multiple redundent weapons systems the EU member states have. Why not all agree on the Challenger II as the EU's MBT for example. It's a great piece of work, the best in the World and battle tested as well, yet what do you see in the EU? How many MBT do the member states of the EU actually field? That kind of thing in a major conflict will be an achilles heel. Wouldn't all the effort being poured into the various MBT's be better used to develop other weapons systems? If the EU member States are so keen on being unified, then they won't mind specializing in a certain aspect of weapons manufactuing will they?

Originally posted by st3ve_o
m8 it's those type45's that sound impressive to me, they say each one holds more firepower than all the fleet of our type42's PUT TOGETHER

www.freerepublic.com...
en.wikipedia.org...



[edit on 15-11-2006 by st3ve_o]

Stevo mabye you should calm down about those type 45's , its only one ship.
Oh and another thing , you do know the RN already uses stealth technology...right? Take a look at the type 23 frigate and the type 45 destroyers super structures....both have something very similar.