Muslim leader: It's the woman's fault who is raped. She's "uncovered meat"

Resi, Discussing senistive issue's such as these can and does lead to arguments and heated debate, its not my intention to be agressive to you or anyone else but on ATS we are all emotionally disconnected, were not sat in the same room, sense and sensability goes out of the window sometimes. So please accept my apologies if I offended you or anyone else.

magicmushroom,

I accept your apology...thankyou.

May I say that it was never my intention to deliberately upset, nor argue with you.


In Pace Always
resi

Well it seems as though the guy is stepping down and relinquishing his post for his statements.

Sydney Muslim cleric seeks leave

Sheikh Hilali again apologised for his comments
Australia's top Muslim cleric at the centre of a storm over his comments about immodestly dressed women has asked for "indefinite leave".
Sheikh Taj el-Din al-Hilali had asked for leave from his duties at Sydney's main Lakemba Mosque, he said in a statement read on his behalf.

Earlier, he was taken to hospital with chest pains after collapsing.

He again apologised for his comments comparing immodestly dressed women to "uncovered meat".

BBC News

Originally posted by ThePieMaN
He again apologised for his comments comparing immodestly dressed women to "uncovered meat".

BBC News

At least he had the intergrity to apologize.

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott

Originally posted by ThePieMaN
He again apologised for his comments comparing immodestly dressed women to "uncovered meat".

BBC News

At least he had the intergrity to apologize.
Plus he stepped down from his leadership which in itself should send a message to his followers that he was wrong.

just found an update from The Sydney Morning Herald

www.smh.com.au...



In Pace Always
resi

I know that this is a rare sight to behold... But what does this fool think about men (yes men) who get raped?

Ps. Not talking from experience!

semperfoo,

The Mufti man did mention in his 'uncovered meat' sermon that women were temptresses and instruments of Satan (words to that effect). So I will go out on a limb here an suggest that he may very well be sympathetic to male rape victims - if indeed they/he was raped by a female/s.

It is the fault of the 'uncovered meat' remember?

You prompted me to ask myself this - I wonder who would cop the blame if the man were sodomised by another man? Perhaps women may still feature as the instrument that stirred the lust of the male perpetrator, making him all hot and horny with glimpses of flesh and heaven forbid ...hair !!

I may be way off base with this but it just got me thinking


In Pace Always
resi

[edit on 2-11-2006 by resistancia]

[edit on 2-11-2006 by resistancia]

Originally posted by resistancia
just found an update from The Sydney Morning Herald

www.smh.com.au...


Its a shame that he still has so much support from the muslim community.
How they cant see that what he said is highly offensive is beyond me...

"Sheik Hilaly was yesterday supported by members from 34 other Muslim organisations who released a statement giving the cleric their full support. They accused the media and politicians of using the mufti's outrageous remarks to "vilify Australian Muslims".

From the above link.

the practice of blaming the victim is far more widespread

www.jpost.com...

from

www.abovetopsecret.com...

while the perpetrators got their share as well, i'd like to ask a simple question:

Isn't it obvious that what happened in Australia (including the questionable reactions by the cleric in question) is just the result of a general attitude in Islamic societies? i mean don't get me wrong if Saudi Arabia wants to have human sacrifices it's their problem but the pattern is obvious: the victim is at fault at all times - a rule which is of course designed to shut victims up, which squares well with what i've seen and heard .about them so far.

Attack me all you want, for all i know, this is not an isolated case, it's the norm, all denying in the world won't change that ugly fact. btw, pleae spare me the excuse that she version which says that she got her punishment for riding with another man, just look at the context - the law alone establishes their views regarding women and their rights.

[edit on 3-11-2006 by Long Lance]

Longlance,

maybe victims are blamed because the perception is that they put themselves there...and yes I agree it appears that this is the case (especially for women) in the Muslim world ..go figure

I read the thread that you linked and I am not surprised at the penalty this woman received. She is considered guilty under Muslim law of bringing shame and discredit on her family...er let me correct that ..HER HUSBAND. Yeah it's all about the little man of the house, what he says goes, what he wants he gets.

Islam seems archaic and out of date in our modern societies as these laws and religious ideologies are alien to us and in contrast to what most western people are prepared to accept as morally correct (maybe I have used wrong words here)?

No doubt our ideologies and laws are just as alien to them as well.

I am ignorant when it comes to Muslim law and culture, maybe I need to be more familiar. I think that the Catholic Church is perhaps they most corrupt on the planet (much to my mother's disappointment). I think all religions are suppressive and structured to keep the masses under control. Hence... partially the reason why the world is rooted.

I know what I want to say but have a problem expressing myself sometimes.


posting with trepidation


In Pace Always
resi


[edit on 3-11-2006 by resistancia]

Originally posted by resistancia

No doubt our ideologies and laws are just as alien to them as well.

I am ignorant when it comes to Muslim law and culture, maybe I need to be more familiar. I think that the Catholic Church is perhaps they most corrupt on the planet (much to my mother's disappointment). I think all religions are suppressive and structured to keep the masses under control. Hence... partially the reason why the world is rooted.

What they are doing in the ME is deplorable but it's simply their business, my problem is that the exact same logic is being used elsewhere, along with the same kind of oppressive violence, in short there are underlying currents in these societies which try to force their (to us repulsive) cultural habits, to put it neutrally, down our throats.

I certainly hope that most immigrants left to actually escape this nonsense not to introduce it everywhere, if not, it begs the question why they're here in the first place.

[edit on 3-11-2006 by Long Lance]

Originally posted by Long Lance

What they are doing in the ME is deplorable but it's simply their business, my problem is that the exact same logic is being used elsewhere, along with the same kind of oppressive violence, in short there are underlying currents in these societies which try to force their (to us repulsive) cultural habits, to put it neutrally, down our throats.

I certainly hope that most immigrants left to actually escape this nonsense not to introduce it everywhere, if not, it begs the question why they're here in the first place.

[edit on 3-11-2006 by Long Lance]

That's the same thing I was referring to. If they are so unsatisfied with western culture and society then why on earth do these people choose to live in one? Why not return to Afghanistan or some other country that forces everyone to live under Islamic law? Why do these extremists live in a 'westernized' country and not adapt to its culture yet they want everyone there to adapt their religious ideologies? Seems not only hypocritical, but incredibly bigoted. I have no pity for such extremist terrorists.

Okay, so I'm reading a book that's explaining Confucius, and I came across this passage that made me stop and think, specifically about this thread.

The notion that we can use speech only to talk about action or indirectly to evoke action has dominated modern Western thought. Yet contemporary 'linguistic' analysis in philosophy has revealed increasingly how much the ritual word is iteself the critical act rather than a report of, or stimulus to, action. The late Professor J.L. Austin was one of those who brought the reality and pervasiveness of this phenomonon to a focus in his analyses of what he called the 'performative utterance.' These are the innumberable statements we make which function somewhat like the 'operative' clause in a legal instrument. They are statements, but they are not statements about some act or inviting some action; instead they are the very execution of the act itself.
'I give and bequeath my watch to my brother,' duly said or written is not a report of what I have already done but is the very act of bequeathal itself. In a marrage ceremony, the 'I do' is not a report of an inner mental act of acceptance; it is the act which seals my part of the bargain. 'I promise...' is not a report of what I have done a moment before inside my head, nor is it indeed a report of anything at all; the uttering of the words is itself the act of promising.
taken from Confucius by Herbert Fingerette, p. 11-12

I read this and wondered if this was somehow related. With the examples Fingerette provided, I can easily see how the power of words becomes more than the simple act of telling or reporting, but an actual action in and of itself.

Do you guys think it might, at all, be related to this particular discussion?

Can we reasonably see the mufti's words as an 'execution of the act itself'?
Or did he simply suggest, give a message?

I'm trying to turn the tables and understand from a different perspective. I might be way off base, grasping at straws, maybe even beating a dead horse. Not sure. But, as it piqued my interest, I thought I'd share.

Originally posted by resistancia Yeah I agree ...morals. People all have different moral standards and that opens up a whole other thread I think.

To an extent, it is morals.

However, I think it's really the step before that.. It's not whether or not an action is correct or incorrect.... But rather, the simple (and sad) possibility that noone has ever explained why something is correct or not.


Morals is a huge tar pit that, you're right, is better left for another thread. (...do we even have one?)

But Reason, Logic... *that* is what seems to be lacking. Do these people have Reason and Logic at their helm, actual reasons that make actual sense, or just threats and engrained 'don't do that's...

'Uncovered meat' - charming.

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott

Originally posted by ThePieMaN
He again apologised for his comments comparing immodestly dressed women to "uncovered meat".

BBC News

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
At least he had the intergrity to apologize.

Either your standards of what an apology is are very different from mine or you need to re-read the article you linked. He didn't really "apologize". That's the BBC interpreting what he said as an apology. Clearly, the BBC's standards of apologies are different from mine. Read his words carefully:

He said his suggestion that women who did not wear a headscarf attracted sexual assault had been taken out of context and "misinterpreted".

In other words: [You all misinterpreted what I said!] This is NOT an apology!!

But he conceded the analogy had been "inappropriate and unacceptable for the Australian society and the western society in general".

In other words: My comments would have been acceptable elsewhere. I wonder where??? Hmmmmm. NOT an apology!!!

[edit on 6-11-2006 by Freedom_for_sum]

Andrew Bolt, a columnist for Australia's Herald Sun wrote what I believe is an excellent and to the point article on what's transpired....

Notable excerpts:

Excuses over. The disgraced mufti of Australia set Muslims a test last month and they failed.
That test couldn't have been easier: make Sheik Taj el-Din al-Hilaly pay for preaching that unveiled women invited rape.

Prove that Muslims can't be led by a man who says raped women must be "jailed for life". Prove we have nothing to fear from your faith.

Simple? Yet yesterday 34 Muslim groups signed a petition backing this bigot, while others plan a big rally for Sydney tomorrow, denouncing not Hilaly but the non-Muslims who criticise him.

The results are in: Islam here -- as represented by many of its leaders -- is now a threat.

What's more: our culture of self-hate makes us too weak to properly resist.

For more than 20 years they said nothing as their most prominent imam, in their biggest mosque, damned Jews as perverts, called suicide bombers heroes, praised terror groups, vilified non-Muslims and hailed the September 11 terror attacks on the United States as "God's work against oppressors".

Yet even then supporters sent him vanloads of flowers, and when he returned to his mosque last Friday he was greeted "like a rock star", said one paper, by an adoring crowd of 5000.

The Muslim Women's Association, which first admitted to being "shocked" by Hilaly's sermon, now said he was "very good to all Muslim women". Said founding president Aziz El Saddik: "Those who say bad things about him, they have very bad manners." His sermon on rape was for Muslims only. Not our business.

Absolutely, positively, disgusting!!! In my view, this only proves that MOST Muslims, even those considered "moderate", have similar twisted views of their world around them. Of course; that addoring crowd of 5000 are a tiny minority!!




[edit on 6-11-2006 by Freedom_for_sum]

Im sorry he was picked off by sniper, he was an open target

This is the west, not the middle east. Tell that Muslim leader to go back to the middle east or STOP acting like it is.

Well, that's my opinion anyways