Important Questions to all Friends of Israel On the War in Lebanon…

1. Israeli spokesmen have described the war in Lebanon as “a surprise to us”.
What do you make of the secret planning-communications that took place between Israel and Washington some six months before the war.
A. www.globalresearch.ca...
B. www.jpost.com...
C. www.informationclearinghouse.info...
E. www.pierretristam.com...
F. www.newyorker.com...
G. www.sfgate.com.../c/a/2006/07/21/MNG2QK396D1.DTL

2. Israel says the war was an operation to recover 2 kidnapped Israeli soldiers. Do you think your leadership is slightly crazy for loosing over 115 soldiers, only to not to get the other two back?
3. Israel says its victorious. Why then were more rockets fired at Israel in the last day of the war than on any other day?
4. Many Israelis claim Israel was trying to only target terrorists. Why then did Israel repeatedly bomb Lebanon’s international airport, its power stations and particular bridges? There are other things like the massive use of cluster bombs in the last 3 days of the war, but like the bridges they are on surface more explainable. So leave those questions out if you will; but remember they add wait to the idea Israel was targeting more than just terrorists.
5. If Israel was targeting “more than just terrorists” why was it?
6. a. Does the Israeli public believe that making the lives of civilians more miserable can defeat terrorists by making them (the people) want to give up?
b. Does Israel have much evidence of this working out in practice? And is it what many ordinary Israelis believe?
7. Why did Hezbollah fire its rockets at Israel only when the invasion was underway? How many people has Hezbollah killed with its rockets at times when their has been no Israeli operation mounted against it or Lebanon?

Answer those questions honestly, accurately and Israel favourably and I would be surprised if I didn’t change my mind to supporting the war on Lebanon (as opposed to not supporting it at all).
I'm seeking a better understanding of Israel, and I like to see myself as theoretically open to supporting Israel. Currently I do not support Israel but then neither do I think it’s possible to answers those questions honestly, accurately, and favourably (not to mention others like them on different subjects).


[edit on 1-11-2006 by DontTreadOnMe]

very good post.

I dont see anyone replying to this post. Not suprised.
All the supporters of 'war on terrorism' seem to have gotten their tongues caught.

Its very easy to see the truth by simple rational thinking.

I am gonna vote for you for the Way Above Award. Good job.
I would love to see someone debunk this.

God; this is getting serious now, 66 viewings and one reply. Don’t tell me I’ve just wrecked Israel’s entire justification for their war; please don’t tell it’s that bad.

And why are we as a nation so thick? Is the fluorine in our tap water really affecting us? After all aren’t we supposed to be asking these sorts of questions ourselves? So you would have thought Israel’s fans (in particular) would have produced more of a debate.

The question I most want answered is why was the war “a surprise” if it was pre-planned? This kind of ties with why did the apparently civilian-conscious nation of Israel repeatedly bombing Lebanon’s power stations and international airports? How was this going to help (anybody)?

Jews are supposed to be an intelligent people; so I was amazed that so many Israel fans seemed to have swallowed the “Israel victorious line” when the previous day Hezbollah fired more missiles than any other day. When the two kidnapped soldiers were not returned but a 115 were lost.
Is it all the fault of some “religiously-nationalistic” pressure to lie to themselves? Or is it something else? Why didn’t the media ask more of these questions? How wide is the grip of real life conspiracies over it?

But thanks for your reply half-minded (and your vote). You choice of words “simple rational thinking” seems to sum up what’s somehow missing in the western peoples. How sad it is given the debate we’ve probably missed. But with 7 questions remaining I guess there’s some hope yet.

I think people are reluctant to reply because it clearly displays Israels attitude in the middle east. I don't think things will ever be resolved in the ME while Israel occupies land there. Sad, but true.

(I am not anti-jewish, just anti the political ideology which is Israel).

I can't be bothered replying as it's quite simply, a rehash of years of arguments and claims put foward throughout the last few months that have been debated and in some cases, debunked.

Oh, and Rockets continue to reign down on Israeli town as I speak. It's as if the term 'katusya' was only invented in July.

I'll think you'll find the vast majority of 'western peoples' are very anti-israel, even before the conflict. But I'll admit that the conflict did turn people towards Palestinian sympathy, which is just as dangerous.

[edit on 26-10-2006 by Peyres]

Originally posted by Liberal1984
God; this is getting serious now, 66 viewings and one reply. Don’t tell me I’ve just wrecked Israel’s entire justification for their war; please don’t tell it’s that bad.

you give yourself waaayyyyy too much credit, to be honest, your not that talented. I just dont see any evidence to support your claims other than more speculation.

Originally posted by Liberal1984
3. Israel says its victorious. Why then were more rockets fired at Israel in the last day of the war than on any other day?

I'll answer one of your questions just to make you happy.

Israel says they are victorious for two reasons, 1. It's good politics you can't admit defeat and expect to get re-elected but more importantly number. 2. because they achieved one of their short term goals, which is to pass the problem onto the international community so that when peace fails again they will have a much more freedom to do what they want in the next war. It's the same stradegy that the USA is using with wanting six party talks with north korea. See if you talk or work one on one and the peace fails it's israel's fault, but if you involve the international community and the peace fails than it's their fault.

So really if you achieved a goal of your you are then victorious sort of

Thank you for replying Peyres. I know you say you can’t be bothered replying because...
a:

it's quite simply, a rehash of years of arguments and claims put foward throughout the last few months

b:

that have been debated and in some cases, debunked.

But how-why are we supposed to believe you if you don’t elaborate on these things? I for one would love more of an idea of how “in some cases” these “years of arguments” have been debunked.

And it’s all very well you saying:

I'll think you'll find the vast majority of 'western peoples' are very anti-israel, even before the conflict.

But don’t blame us blame you.
You see it’s a funny way of supporting something you care about by replying but denying your interested in replying (or more specifically defending your argument).
You see when I care about something (like Saddam-Iraq) I usually make a damn good effort to defend it and have a fair and good argument. I do it because I want to spread my ideas, and learn of others. I try and make it fair because it strengthens my case and my mission, and because no human being is the god from the sky who is correct about everything they believe in.

Hopefully someone (unlike you?) who is a bit more “bothered” about explaining Israel to the people of the West will reply. Otherwise you’re letting your argument down a tiny bit (not that you’ve been bothered to really explain what it is).
Surely therefore you’ll only have yourselves to blame if (or when) we like the Palestinians and Lebanese?
I'm not accusing that of bothering you; but hell if I knew a bit more about Israel (enough of the “pro” things, to be pro it) then (I guess) it would bother me seriously.

By the way JackJuice that’s got to be one of the best replies I’ve seen on here all week (seriously).
What I like most is your appreciation of the fact Israel wanted to draw international attention onto its “Lebanon problem” and pass it onto them (us). I almost wonder if this is part of the reason why certain civilian infrastructure like power stations, and airports, along with (in cases) civilians themselves were repeatedly targeted. Was it to make it easier for the Western public to support sending their own troops there?

I guess we’ll never know. But it would fit into the general picture wouldn’t it?

If so at least we can free Israel from the charge of being insane (although that's if the troule they've had has really been worth it).

[edit on 090705 by Liberal1984]

Originally posted by Peyres
I can't be bothered replying as it's quite simply, a rehash of years of arguments and claims put foward throughout the last few months that have been debated and in some cases, debunked.

Then why did you bother even posting this much. Put or shutup. Siimple.

Originally posted by Peyres
Oh, and Rockets continue to reign down on Israeli town as I speak. It's as if the term 'katusya' was only invented in July.

Oh really? Please show some sources to that.

Originally posted by Peyres
I'll think you'll find the vast majority of 'western peoples' are very anti-israel, even before the conflict. But I'll admit that the conflict did turn people towards Palestinian sympathy, which is just as dangerous.

Western government is not anti-israel. Remember, US supplied Israel with weapons. And I saw a lot of members here at ATS justifying the Israel attack because Hizbollah had captured 2 soldiers.

Supporting Palestinians is dangerous huh? Just like supporting any muslim is terrorism?Just like hating the US gov. is treason?
Mind filled with propoganda.

But as usual. No one can ever give a clear answer to anything. Even though it is more than clear that attack on Lebanon was not just for the 2 soldiers.

Originally posted by XphilesPhan
you give yourself waaayyyyy too much credit, to be honest, your not that talented. I just dont see any evidence to support your claims other than more speculation.

The usual strategy. If you cant discredit the information. then try to discredit the original poster.

If you had any knowledge at all you would know that everything in the OP was worldwide news. Nothing is theory. OP presented straight facts, thats why people have a hard time trying to debunk it. You cannot debunk facts.

Originally posted by Liberal1984
God; this is getting serious now, 66 viewings and one reply. Don’t tell me I’ve just wrecked Israel’s entire justification for their war; please don’t tell it’s that bad.

People like to turn a blind eye to such events. If it was lebanon that had attacked israel then you would have seen the member's reactions. 90% would be condemning it and calling Lebanon a terrorist state. Not to mention, the media would have still been talking about it and US would have been sending its forces to Israel to support them.

what you are seriously saying that 90% of the members of a conspiracy forums are Pro-Israel? Pro-Jewish? Pro-Western?

Laugh of the week

Half Minded, it is pure ignorance to suggest that only people that support the US have been brainwashed by propaganda Do you even know about the manufactured Jenin story, amongst other things?

The western people and western governments are a totally different kettle of fish.

Originally posted by Peyres
what you are seriously saying that 90% of the members of a conspiracy forums are Pro-Israel? Pro-Jewish? Pro-Western?

Laugh of the week

Half Minded, it is pure ignorance to suggest that only people that support the US have been brainwashed by propaganda Do you even know about the manufactured Jenin story, amongst other things?

The western people and western governments are a totally different kettle of fish.

It is ignorant of you to think that I conducted a survey and came up with 90%. It was a personal obvious generalization from what I have seen on this board. And I was being specific to this the ATS forum in that statement. And from what I have seen, muslim bashing is a trend these days. Again, the 90% of them would not agree to me obviously. Otherwise they would be proving me right.

Originally posted by Peyres
what you are seriously saying that 90% of the members of a conspiracy forums are Pro-Israel? Pro-Jewish? Pro-Western?

Laugh of the week

Half Minded, it is pure ignorance to suggest that only people that support the US have been brainwashed by propaganda Do you even know about the manufactured Jenin story, amongst other things?

The western people and western governments are a totally different kettle of fish.

It is ignorant of you to think that I conducted a survey and came up with 90%. It was a personal obvious generalization from what I have seen on this board. And I was being specific to this the ATS forum in that statement. And from what I have seen, muslim bashing is a trend these days. Again, the 90% of them would not agree to me obviously. Otherwise they would be proving me right. So wats the best way to get the real truth? Consider your own research.

Thats what I did and I still feel that lot of people on the ATS board are anti-muslim or atleast ignorant about islam or muslims.

Originally posted by Liberal1984
I almost wonder if this is part of the reason why certain civilian infrastructure like power stations, and airports, along with (in cases) civilians themselves were repeatedly targeted. Was it to make it easier for the Western public to support sending their own troops there?

Wow you must have real disdain Israel don't you? You must remember that these are people that we are talking about too, they aren't inherently evil but when your back is up against the wall it doesn't matter who you are, you WILL lash out. This latest war wasn't over two soldiers that got kidnapped, it was over years of terrorism. Years of Israel putting up with the fear, putting up with bombs blowing up children, things like this. It's like when a bully picks on you all year and then comes up to you and does something thats not that mean and all the built up hatred makes you snap at something stupid. Everyone thinks that your crazy when infact you've been putting up with it for far too long.

Now i don't know the specifics of their air campaign so i can't speak to power stations but the airports and roads make perfect sense to me. They want to stem the flow of weapons into the country. As far as civilians i doubt they were intentionally targeted. Israel did give a warning to the civilian buildings that were near targets to get out. This actually hurts their cause too, because it lets not only the civilians get out but also the targeted terrorists, just a lose lose situation.

Originally posted by Liberal1984
I guess we’ll never know. But it would fit into the general picture wouldn’t it?

If so at least we can free Israel from the charge of being insane (although that's if the troule they've had has really been worth it).

No, no they are insane, i don't know any other group of people myself included who's rage wouldn't have boiled over beyond human recognition after what they have been through in the past century, and the same goes for the other side, its a lose lose situation.

So who suffers? The moderate muslims going about their day suffer and their children turn into terrorists, The regular Israeli suffers growing up to hate all muslims and the viscious cycle continue's. I feel sympathy for boths sides. The point is that we shouldn't just blame one side here but all, People are generally good but a person can be evil. Unfortunatley i don't think there will ever be peace in the middle east until there is genocide. (Im not advicating genocide btw)

Originally posted by JackJuice

Wow you must have real disdain Israel don't you? You must remember that these are people that we are talking about too, they aren't inherently evil but when your back is up against the wall it doesn't matter who you are, you WILL lash out. This latest war wasn't over two soldiers that got kidnapped, it was over years of terrorism. Years of Israel putting up with the fear, putting up with bombs blowing up children, things like this.

Obviously, you don't know what you are talking about are you?
That's ok as I am aware of the US media is censored and manipulated

Watch this Google Video and reply afterwards.

Originally posted by Mdv2

Obviously, you don't know what you are talking about are you?
That's ok as I am aware of the US media is censored and manipulated

Watch this Google Video and reply afterwards.

Iv'e seen this video and my opinion is unchanged, i get most of my news online from a multitude of sources much of that being the BBC.

Obviously none of us know exactly what Israel's long term motives are, but i do pay attention and my opinion remains that they are not as evil as some make them out to be.

Originally posted by Liberal1984
1. Israeli spokesmen have described the war in Lebanon as “a surprise to us”.
2. Israel says the war was an operation to recover 2 kidnapped Israeli soldiers.
3. Israel says its victorious. Why then were more rockets fired at Israel in the last day of the war than on any other day?
4. Many Israelis claim Israel was trying to only target terrorists. Why then did Israel repeatedly bomb Lebanon’s international airport, its power stations and particular bridges?
5. If Israel was targeting “more than just terrorists” why was it?
6. a. Does the Israeli public believe that making the lives of civilians more miserable can defeat terrorists by making them (the people) want to give up?
b. Does Israel have much evidence of this working out in practice? And is it what many ordinary Israelis believe?
7. Why did Hezbollah fire its rockets at Israel only when the invasion was underway?

First question: All nations that can make war have plans of all sorts. I would not be surprised if America had contingency plans to attack Canada or Mexico or the UK, it should not surprise you that Israel had plans already drawn up to attack Lebanon?

Second question: They did not go to war to recover 2 soldiers, that is what they told people to make it look like a humanitarian operation. The real reason was for 2 causes 1: Destroy the infrastructure of Hezbollah, which they did effectively. 2: Destroy the Lebanese tourist trade.

Third question: Israel was victorious in it's goals. They did not get the 2 men that where kidnapped back, it is sad, and it should have been written into the cease fire that they should be returned, apparently Israel did not care about it enough.. Had there been less political correctness about the war Israel could have effectively killed thousands more. As for the rockets, the rockets primarily come from civilian targets, it is very easy to fire a Katusha rocket anywhere, easy to dismantle and reassemble. How effective where the rockets? Who lost more people? Who had their infrastructure decimated? Who had their nation reduced to ruins? That is what I thought.

Fourth question: Israels military targeted power stations, airports and the like for the exact same reasons we do when we invade a nation.. if you do not understand warfare do not post questions like this. Why did they use cluster bombs? Why not? Who is going to stop them? No one, they where the victors.. they punished not Hezbollah, but Lebanon for allowing Hezbollah to reside within their borders.

Fifth question: Read above, a part of war is terror, to scare the populace. When the next elections come around and the people have a choice between one candidate or Hezbollah, they will have fresh memories of their house in a heap of rubble. Sad? Sure. That war.

Sixth question: No, ordinary civilians within Israel have absolutely no desire for war, they are exactly like Palestinians or Lebanese, the governments call the shots regardless of who is in office.. the governments form the wars, the people merly suffer it. It does not matter if it creates more terrorist, more hate.. if it does then 18 years from now Israel will wage another war with Lebanon, Palestine, who ever houses the terrorist (people actually attacking Israel) and we will have yet again this same discussion. "It does not matter if they love us, so long as they fear us" A very true statement.

Seventh question: Hezbollah is exceptionally good at using the public and world media. Had they launched blatant attacks on Israel before he war, then Israel would have reduced Lebanon to ash, because they did not the world perceived Israel as an aggressor. How many people in times of military peace where killed with rockets? None that I know of. Here is a few questions for you on this topic.. How many people where kidnapping Israeli business men, how many Hezbollah militants helped Ham mas fight Israel.. why where their rockets pointed at Israel so that when the first bombs fell the rockets flew? .. planed if you ask me, planed just like Israel planed their attack. Now let me ask you why Hezbollah only fired upon cities and civilian targets? Unlike Hezbollah they do not hide within the ranks of citizens, they have bases. Let me ask you this, how where these actions any different then Israels except in size?

Of course, the above are just my opinions and I do not honestly expect you to think the same way.. we are apparently on the complete opposite on this topic.


Mod Note: Big Quote – Please Review This Link.


[edit on 1-11-2006 by DontTreadOnMe]

What was Israel suppose to do?

hezbollah and illegal UN ordered disbanded militia payed for by Iran was lobbing missles into Israel. hezbollah also kidnapped two soldiers. They thought this would be a bargaining chip in getting some prisoners out of Israeli jails that they wanted.

Now tell me this......Lebanon is too weak to kick hezbollah out or does not want to. Lebanon is weak, as Syria occupied a good chunk of Lebanon for many many years.....

And no suicide bombers or wolrd codemnation from muslim countries of this...Why because Syria is majority muslim. That is the truth.


If say Switzerland armed and paid for militia to help out citizens in Spain (to win over the hearts by using the pocket book.) and then building up the military wing to shoot missles and cause havoc on to the country of Portugal. And the country of Spain said it is not us doing it. And were to weak and/or didn't care. What is Portugal suppose to do?

Are the suppose to let Switzerland play with bombs on its own country, or try to go into Spain and beat on the Swiss militia in Spain. I would go into Spain and get the illegal milita out or weaken it militarily.

I say any country has the right to defend itself. If you are pissed Israel used a heavy hand, then go tell Iran to get out of Lebanon. As Iran is using the Lebanese to advance there cause of beating on Israel. If you can not see hezbollah is a puppet of Iranian money then you are whacked. Israel gets a ton of money from the USA and I will not deny that, because that is easy to see.


This is an Iranian caused problem that the Lebanese civilians have to suffer. Thank you iran for letting hezbollah shoot rockets into Israel. What was Israel suppose to do? Take civilian causulites or try to kill people that care killing civilians. hezbollah hides with the civilian population and lebanese civilians die, because of this.

That is a tatic hezbollah chooses are they are weaker in miilitary means.