Aliens - exist or not, my question

Hi All

I am new here, though I have been lurking for well over a year now. I have a point to make regarding the whole 'are aliens visiting earth' topic. I should point out that I am a skeptical believer if such a term exists.

If we take as given that that for well over 50 years there have been claims of aliens visiting earth and that top level government, military and scientists have met and interacted with them or their craft. Why is it that not one credible person has provided factual proof/images of their existence?

If we take into account all the different government representatives, scientists and military personnel that must have seen them, why has no-one provided cast-iron proof of an alien presence. Surely one of them must have provided evidence that they have kept after they have died, or simply provided something after leaving their posts. Why has no-one sent anomous photographs to the media?

I just find it odd that we still have not got one decent photograph after all this time. I understand that threats may have been made against people and their families after they die. But surely not all of them have families or one of them could have published a decent image of a ufo or alien anomously over the internet or via the media.

Thanks for reading.

MrWill.

I agree with everything except the point made about photographic proof. Even if someone had proof and released it, the non-believers would all yell fake. Even if an alien showed up on t.v. people would still think that the government or some other entity was up to something. It's been said before but, the believers don't need proof and no amount of proof will ever convince the non-believers.

Well if we were to analyze what the "cause & effect" would be if that type of knowledge were to become released and/or verified by a government, we may get a better understanding of what might go through a leaders mind. Do you think the general populous would accept such information? Would religions be able to control their panic-stricken parishners as it would change the whole concept of God? If a revelation such as "yes Virginia there is a Santa Claus and he's really an alien" were to filter to the public, how much faith would we now have in our governments and military? And the chain reaction would escalade into a nitemare as there would be those that wouldn't believe it anyway, others might become suicidal or overly stressed that it was the end of the world as we know it. And on and on and on....

Man for the most part doesn't really want to think that there might be a more intelligent species IMHO.

In regards to your statement about photographs and knowledge being only in the last 50 years, in actuality creatures/aliens/ufos have been recorded for much longer than that and represented in works of art for century's.. Reports of unidentified flying objects appear even in our most ancient historical records.For anyone looking at the most ancient primitive cave drawings and petraglyphs it seems impossible now to take them for anything other than perhaps technology.In historical times, demons and elves ruled the darkest nights ~ even in the Bible, angels and devils ascend to the clouds.

Ancient Artwork of UFO's (and aliens, demons, etc.)

Originally posted by JohnnyAnonymous

Ancient Artwork of UFO's (and aliens, demons, etc.)

Thank you very much for posting that! That is the best collection of ancient UFO's I have ever seen!

Kudos to you!

Ok, they are 'examples' but hardly proof. These pictures could be an interpretation of an event. Although I conceed that they look like ufo's it is hardly evidence.

Is there any evidence post 1940 when camera's were in everyday use? Any government official, military commander or verified scientist that has come forward and shown proof, either alive or left something after they died?

Yes, thousands in fact. Search the disclosure project. youtube.com and google video search are extraordinary tools.

♥~Infinite love and eternal peace~♥

Originally posted by Zanzibar

Originally posted by JohnnyAnonymous

Ancient Artwork of UFO's (and aliens, demons, etc.)

Thank you very much for posting that! That is the best collection of ancient UFO's I have ever seen!

Kudos to you!

These are very interesting pictures, but I'm not to sure if they are showing UFO's or just simply the Moon and the Sun?

Originally posted by mrwillmrwill
Ok, they are 'examples' but hardly proof. These pictures could be an interpretation of an event. Although I conceed that they look like ufo's it is hardly evidence.

Is there any evidence post 1940 when camera's were in everyday use? Any government official, military commander or verified scientist that has come forward and shown proof, either alive or left something after they died?

Please keep in mind that one man's proof is another man's hoax, and a debate on conjecture versus evidence is not what I want to get into at this time. I try and keep an open mind about many things, but in the end it's up to every individual to personally decide what may or may not be an acceptable belief system for him/herself. Before we had cameras, the only way to record an event phenomena was to paint it or write it down.. Paintings, cave drawings and petraglyphs were all used back then just the same as we use or view photos today in modern times. Granted they were interpretations of the artist him/herself, but they are what they are as far as ancient data being stored for someone to view and ponder over. Do you think that they too had their equivilant of a discussion group or forum where they might debate over a certain painting? Now there's something to think about....

I do not have any proof that you seek. But I can present you with some curiousities that you can dwell on yourself (for whatever thats worth).

To start with the photo that is very near and dear to me that I use to the left here at ATS (the distiguished gentleman standing next to his beloved vehicule) was taken in the summer of 1932, near St. Paris, Ohio is of Mr. George Sutton. You may have noticed an object over his shoulder...

I also have a postcard photo that was sent to me that is supposedly from 1911 of a supposed UFO over a store. The person wanted to sell it and so placed her stores name near the object itself. I've not been able to confirm the validity of it, but it's a very interesting photo. Be forewarn, the size of one of these photos is nearly 2 megs big, so please "right-click" and "save as" to your own computor..


Back of Postcard

Closeup of object

Full Size Photo (warning 2 megs big)

I have one other very old photo that I've not been able to confirm an actual date on but it has to be pre-1946 for the style of cars being driven.

Old racecar and object

And some other excellent pre-Roswell photos can be seen here, and then click on the left menu that says: Pre 1947 UFO photographs

Pre 1947 UFO photographs

Again, I don't offer this as any proof, they are simply very interesting and I find many of them quite compelling. You'll need to make up your own mind if these (or any other photos) constitutes what one might consider 'proof'....




[edit on 19-10-2006 by JohnnyAnonymous]

mrwillmrwill

Whether alien life exists (and is visiting Earth) is one, tiny insignificant question. The real questions are about who they are, why they come here, and what they have to do with humans.

You see the evidence of their visitation just like anybody does. But you don't believe it's real- because you are waiting for your leaders to tell you it's real? Well, your leaders are the last people who will tell you the truth.

You are set up. Once you witness the aliens for yourself, you will probably believe whole-heartedly that whatever your leaders tell you about them is the truth, and this is the ultimate problem- the ultimate universal deception to your own mind. This is why the aliens have to sneak in to try to meet with willing individual humans to teach truly about themselves and their intentions.

Earth is our own world that belongs to every human living on it. If we want change within the structures of our own societies and governments, we have to create it. The other races can only offer their assistance, not take over or come between a government and its people. Unfortunately, right now, still, that means humans meeting other races in private in order to protect those of us who work between our worlds despite governmental control of public information.

The leaders of Earth do not want the alien races here, do not want them teaching anybody on Earth about better ways to live as all other races do, or to uncover governmental crimes against the people, or to threaten the structures of capitalism on human suffering.

The leaders of Earth have other things in mind besides what you and I would want to accept from the other races.

Even if aliens are real, theres nothing they can do to make things better. Infact, I have to say we are doing just fine rather than poor. We are alive and cover the globe pretty much completely. And we are rather technologically advanced. We are the most powerful species on this planet.

There is nothing aliens could do to make the life of a common american better or anyone else for that matter. Whats the point in helping someone and making their probems your own rather than dealing with your business? To take care of someone else is one thing, to take care of billions and billions? It's impossible.

The world leaders, as you call them, are doing what they think is right even if some of them do deviate from what is 'right'. But we aren't dead yet so they must be doing something right, don't you think? Considering the fact that the world could be nothing more than a smoldering radioactive dustball by now.

But so far they have done an okay job of doing their job :] Which is to keep everyone else alive by making rules and dealing with other bastards who want to play kingpin.

But back to the topic. Aliens? Yes or no? I say no.

Why? Theres no solid proof. Thats why. You might say 'oh but what about the disclosure project, books, videos, pictures, recordings, interviews, etc, but none of it flat out says 'HEY THEY ARE REAL' with undeniable proof. I have said things in the past on other topics and when I was proven wrong, I didn't deny it.

But I can't say I am wrong about this only because there is no proof that says they are real or not real. I dont' even have to proof why I believe that because all you have to do is look around you and at the UFO community.

There are hundreds and hundreds of people who say aliens exist. Sure. But each and every single one of them has their own damn story. Some say they are from underground, some say they are from the sea, other say they from mars, others say they are from egypt, some say they are from another galaxy, some say they from hell, some say they are from heaven, and it goes on and on.

The fact that everyone has their own damn story, which goes against what OTHER people say, about aliens that is, is enough proof to make any sensible person know that it's a load of bullcrap.

Besides, WHY would there be a reason to hide the existance of aliens? The idea itself is so dumb. For a government, which is supposedly against everyone, to hide information about something like that from thousands and thousands of people is ridiculous. And it's impossible. Information gets leaked from the United States governent all the time (and you can't say it doesn't. It's not like we haven't had a scandal or two within every five years)

It's impossible and entirely improbable. Do aliens exist? I have say, ultimately, yes. Of course. Are they here or have they made contact with ANYONE on Earth? No. They probably don't even know we exist.

Funny huh?

[edit on 20-10-2006 by CidCaldensfey]

Originally posted by EarthSister
You see the evidence of their visitation just like anybody does. But you don't believe it's real- because you are waiting for your leaders to tell you it's real? Well, your leaders are the last people who will tell you the truth.

You are set up. Once you witness the aliens for yourself, you will probably believe whole-heartedly that whatever your leaders tell you about them is the truth, and this is the ultimate problem- the ultimate universal deception to your own mind. This is why the aliens have to sneak in to try to meet with willing individual humans to teach truly about themselves and their intentions.

Earth is our own world that belongs to every human living on it. If we want change within the structures of our own societies and governments, we have to create it. The other races can only offer their assistance, not take over or come between a government and its people. Unfortunately, right now, still, that means humans meeting other races in private in order to protect those of us who work between our worlds despite governmental control of public information.

The leaders of Earth do not want the alien races here, do not want them teaching anybody on Earth about better ways to live as all other races do, or to uncover governmental crimes against the people, or to threaten the structures of capitalism on human suffering.

The leaders of Earth have other things in mind besides what you and I would want to accept from the other races.

Have you ever considered that all our human civilizations are not of human creation or design, we might actually still be ruled by a group of aliens who desire to keep us enslaved.

The first human civilzations were created and taught to the humans by these aliens, or we will still be living in tribes like the other animals on this planet. Human progress and evolution is way too advanced compared to any animal that existed on this planet.

The aliens used and harnessed mutated apes genes into humans like the way we harnessed mutated wolf genes into the pet dogs that we now have. Dogs only existed when human came about, and their evolution from wolf to dog was speed up and controlled by mankind. (apes - human)

Maybe human beings did not screw up ourselves and our planet, a particular group of aliens did. Could mankind still screw up without these alien involvement, Yup, most likely.

I'm just saying that these other aliens may not want to show themselves not just because we are violent, primitive or religious but also because the ones controlling most of humans could be an enemy of theirs.

Just an alternaive theory.

That theory would make sense if there was any actual proof of it. I'm not saying you are wrong or right but you keep saying 'the other aliens' or just 'aliens' in general but there is no proof to say that there are any aliens at all. At least ones we may have been in contact with.

If we take as given that that for well over 50 years there have been claims of aliens visiting earth and that top level government, military and scientists have met and interacted with them or their craft. Why is it that not one credible person has provided factual proof/images of their existence?

"Proof" would only be in the form of an actual physical specimen or debris. It would not be difficult to collect this as it appears, and then discredit any finders. There is good "evidence", one just needs to look for it. Betty Hill's starmap is an excellent example. While many debunkers will point out the possibility of a random pattern, what they then fail to address is that the map not only shows position of the stars, but also their COLOR. Largely unknown even by astronomers of the time, and only later verified. The map shows yellow suns, and a pattern of exploration by the beings....quite remarkable really. There is also plenty of evidence surrounding other cases such as Roswell and Rendlesham, etc. In the Roswell case alone, there is the testimony of numerous military officers from privates to generals.

If we take into account all the different government representatives, scientists and military personnel that must have seen them, why has no-one provided cast-iron proof of an alien presence. Surely one of them must have provided evidence that they have kept after they have died, or simply provided something after leaving their posts. Why has no-one sent anomous photographs to the media?

Do you always walk around with a camera? Maybe since the introduction of the cell phone camera, but not prior to that I'd bet. Also, most sightings are of craft, not beings. Most stories of abduction have little evidence, though some are compelling. As with "proof" mentioned earlier, retrieval and discrediting are not difficult...and there are PLENTY of good vids and pics around of craft.

I just find it odd that we still have not got one decent photograph after all this time. I understand that threats may have been made against people and their families after they die. But surely not all of them have families or one of them could have published a decent image of a ufo or alien anomously over the internet or via the media.

See above.

However, I'll concur that ANYONE who claims to have constant contact with aliens, and cannot provide a photo of one, is definitely in my "not to believe" file...especially with today's technology. I love my camera phone, and I know I'd be silently snapping away with it....

P.S. - the vast majority of the "ancient UFOs" in artwork is misunderstood symbolism. Themes such as anthropomorphic representations of the sun and moon, golden disk with rays to symbolize God, etc. are easily mistaken for UFOs. Granted, there are some that are still amazingly UFO-like, and not known symbolism, but most are not UFOs.


[edit on 20-10-2006 by Gazrok]

Do you always walk around with a camera? Maybe since the introduction of the cell phone camera, but not prior to that I'd bet. Also, most sightings are of craft, not beings. Most stories of abduction have little evidence, though some are compelling. As with "proof" mentioned earlier, retrieval and discrediting are not difficult...and there are PLENTY of good vids and pics around of craft.

LOL.. I guess I'm one of those few that have always carried a camera no matter where I go or travel to... I had the great opportunity to meet with a "news gathering" team from a major NBC affiliate when I was very young (a 1969 school field-trip). One of the questions I asked was how (we as citizens) could help in providing and/or reporting news. I was told that chance favors the prepared person and to always have a notepad and if possible a camera to help document a possible newsworthy event. I took those words to heart and carried my little 'brownie camera' everywhere I went, even today I always have a disposable camera in the 'glovebox' along with a pad and pencil.

I also believe that people spend way too much time looking down and forward rather than up towards that particular area that would favor a possible sighting...just my two cents..

Hey,Im a sceptical beleiver too.In a purely scientific ,rational way there has been more radar correlated ,separate group witnessed events now to conclude there is some truth to this subject.
Virtualy every country has now had its fair share of events and with all the circumstantial evidence from credible,sober eyewitnesses(you would be executed in Texas for less) and all the radar verification it seems beyond beleif that cynics still scoff.
Radar correlation that indicates seemingly intelligently controlled objects flying in countries airspace ,are now in their hundreds of thousands worldwide. The rate of knots per hour (some in their thousands) and completely unprecedented flight characteristics and aerial manouverability all tell the rational,impartial,objective observer that this subject is not all fantasy.
People seem to overlook that, in the now countless good quality cases, if only one is reality then this phenomenon is real.I ,like you, would love to see (literaly) a body of evidence but ,although it is a very difficult fact for some to digest,this subject has more than been proved beyond reasonable doubt(51%-although it only takes 1%).
So many governments around the world and many institutions have said for years that this subject is real that is getting more and more presumptuous to beleive credible witnesses are hallucinating .hoaxing or misindentifying.
It is fair to say that many sightings(up to 85%) are misidentifications such as satellites,military aircraft,lenticular clouds,myopic floaters ect but that still leaves hundreds of thousands of genuinely inexplicable radar verified reports from policemen,judges,air traffic controllers,high ranking military officials and even astronauts.
I think half the world already knows there is something to this subject(and the other half do not want to know!).It is true to say some people will go to extraordinary lengths to ignore the UFO phenomenon,sometimes it is because they are scared of mockery and some might suffer from a kind of religious prejudice but ,even if they say that UFOs dont exist,they appear on radar nonetheless .
What is true is that most documentaries(usualy government sponsered) take an extremely one sided approach when dealing with UFOs.Some programmes are hysterically prejudiced ,cynical,and bias (subtely infering that UFO=NUT).These programmes are more akin to propaganda than an impartial, objective study into the phenomenon.An open,fair,neutral scientific investigation in the public domain is sorely needed into this subject ( there is more than enough scientific and circumstantal evidence to warrant it)
Cheers Karl

Even having a camera or camera phone on you doesn't mean you will get a picture. Most people are so shocked when they see a ship they watch because they don't want to miss anything, then when it's gone they remember the camera. Also the ships move extremely quick they aren't the easiest to catch.

We have some skeptics that yell hoax or fake 2 seconds after they see a picture.

I know from my experiences that when I am with the one I go to we are focused on what is at hand. They do have control, you will only remember or have what they allow.

I believe there is a lot of proof but many of you just do not want to accept it.

I will repeat this until I am blue in the face if I need to:

They are here and they are here in mass.

The alien people do not allow evidence of themselves into human hands of their contacts. When we see them, they have seen us long first. If you hold a camera, you are less apt to see them to take a picture just like that.

You only get a pic if they WANT you to get a pic. If they need you around, free to speak, you don't get a pic.



[edit on 10/22/2006 by EarthSister]

It is just very hard to believe that after so many 'crashest' nobody outside the government has accidently found something. Sure, maybe they do a great job of sweeping up after themselves. But even in areas where there was once war, active mines lay dormant as well as other munitions which could pose a threat to anyone.

So saying that any government recovering a ufo and not making a mistake a silly. There would have to be something left over by accident that someone else would have found. In that case, maybe I would believe.

About the Hills, didn't they watch some sort of outer limits show or something with greys sometime before they were supposedly abducted? I wouldn't be surprised if it was just made up by them after watching the show. But I doubt the tv show had the map, so yeah. That is strange. I'll agree there that it is very possible they came in contact.

It is very hard though to be a believer with the way Ufology is today. A lot of people have their own theories. I really don't doubt most of them are purely for making money. If everyone was serious about this stuff, I really believe it would be possible to find out the truth. And I'm not talking about psionics or any of that crap, I'm talking about an actual explanation. Something of that sort.

In an 'eyes only' environment, there can be a vault and guys with machine guns. You won't be carying your digital camera in there. All you are going to get are stories from dying people that everyone will call crazy.

As for the crashes all the time, I don't know if there have really been that many crash stories that are believable. BUt people do see transient stuff more commonly.

My brother saw a shiny thing approach a high-altitude jet fast at an acute angle. The jet 'shot' at the shiny thing (the shot left a contrail off the side of the jet as it took off.) Immediately, the sparkly thing changed course (instantaneously,it seemed) and flew off at amazing speed like intertia wasn't that important. So who knows what that was? Whoever knows what that was isn't going to announce it on here.

Being a hard nosed scientist, for years I laughed at my brother, or told him it was a pegasus launch, until I grew up a little bit. I now realize that weird stuff is observed, and that dismissing it isn't proper skepticism. Occam's razor applies, but we tend to dismiss things we don't understand. People will dismiss him, I suppose, but as I know him personally, I don't have to let my common sense make that mistake for me. Not anymore.

Originally posted by mrwillmrwill
Hi All

I am new here, though I have been lurking for well over a year now. I have a point to make regarding the whole 'are aliens visiting earth' topic. I should point out that I am a skeptical believer if such a term exists.

If we take as given that that for well over 50 years there have been claims of aliens visiting earth and that top level government, military and scientists have met and interacted with them or their craft. Why is it that not one credible person has provided factual proof/images of their existence?

If we take into account all the different government representatives, scientists and military personnel that must have seen them, why has no-one provided cast-iron proof of an alien presence. Surely one of them must have provided evidence that they have kept after they have died, or simply provided something after leaving their posts. Why has no-one sent anomous photographs to the media?

I just find it odd that we still have not got one decent photograph after all this time. I understand that threats may have been made against people and their families after they die. But surely not all of them have families or one of them could have published a decent image of a ufo or alien anomously over the internet or via the media.

Thanks for reading.

MrWill.

I am sure that, given the sensitive nature of the topic, each and every one of those involved would be watched like a hawk. There would be audio tracking, visual tracking and so on. There would be no real way of getting any information out, and if someone did manage to send something to the civilian world, that person and every other person involved in the leak including the unsuspecting recipiants, would be taken care of.

Trust me on that.