F22 vs Eurofighter vs SU37 who wins the Dogfight.

reply to post by GEX

Actually you're wrong.
S-37 Berkut (or Golde Eagle) is Sukhoi's design bureau designation for a prototype of a Forward Swept Wing (FSW) fighter wich, if it had ever entered service would have the official designation SU-47. The SU-37 is an improved electronics version of the SU-27 Flanker wich unconfirmed reports say also has vectoring Thrust capability.
Oh! and by the way (althought I'm a european) the F-22 has a better thrust to weight ratio, better time to climb, higher cruise speeds (without afterburners), tighter turn radius and of course Low Observable Technology commonly know as Stealth. So unless you can tell me how you can shoot down a fighter wich is faster, more manouverable and that doesn't let you have radar lock on him, I guess it's not even a competition.
Daniel Reis
Portugal

The F-22 wins every time. Even if it allows the SU into a close in knife fight, it still should have the edge.

If these two aircraft ever got close enough to have a real dogfight then they would have already lost, because their BVR strategy would have failed. In which case a Sukhoi fighter would win the dogfight and splash the Raptor.

The Sukhoi also has a rearward facing targeting radar so that it can flee the conflict whilst still targeting it's BVR attacker.

The Sukhoi also has a rearward facing targeting radar so that it can flee the conflict whilst still targeting it's BVR attacker.

Complete baloney.

The range of such a radar is very poor, as it's aperture is limited to the space in the tail. Good luck tracking a VLO target BVR. AFAIK, it requires special version of R-73 which is an WVR missile to work.

In which case a Sukhoi fighter would win the dogfight and splash the Raptor.

Explain.

[edit on 10/2/2009 by C0bzz]

…it requires special version of R-73 which is an WVR missile to work.

…and as I said ... let me repeat:

If these two aircraft ever got close enough to have a real dogfight then they would have already lost, because their BVR strategy would have failed.

The F-22 only has a combat radius of 410nm. It faces a very real risk of fuel starvation in a dogfight, I kid you not. The Su-37 has a combat radius of 910nm.

With respect to it’s N012 tail radar and WVR dogfights, the Stealth qualities of an F-22 ceases to be of any benefit.

Dogfight manoeuvres themselves create radar cross section aspects to the radar which make an F-22 blindingly obvious and that’s without even mentioning the helmet linked OLS-35 IRST sighting system. The advantage of a low radar cross section is a function of range and it has negligible value in WVR combat.

The Su-37’s Irbis E radar can detect super-low-observable' targets with 0.01 m2 RCS at 90 km range. A BVR missile launch by an F-22 tends to give the game away and the Su-37 is quite capable of jamming a missile datalink.
In order for an F-22 to detect the Su-37 at BVR ranges in an ECM jamming environment, the F-22’s APG-77 has to crank out about 20 Kilowatts to burn through the jammingso he can find the Su-37, thus drawing attention to itself.

This lights up the so called STEALTH fighter like a Christmas tree, solving the problem for a Sukhoi pilot of trying to find the Raptor.

By the way, much of the F-22’s ability and effective range of it’s missiles comes from using superior altitude. At 45,000 feet the F-22 only has a combat radius of 250nm.

The whole point I am making is that STEALTH cannot hide the F-22 at BVR range from the Irbis E radar and the F-22 cannot detect the Sukhoi against ECM jamming. The whole strategy of STEALTH is compromised meaning that close dogfighting may still be a real prospect.

Once within WVR it is by no mean certain that the F-22 is at all superior. The Raptor’s legendry agility is based on raw power in an aircraft with a serious drinking problem. The Su-37 does not depend only on raw power for agility, but rather a combination of aerodynamics and power.

www.milavia.net...

The F=22 is just a big stupid fuel thirsty hog. It's so called STEALTH capability which can be overcome, compromises all it's other advantages.


[edit on 11-2-2009 by sy.gunson]

At 45,000 feet the F-22 only has a combat radius of 250nm.

The F-22 only has a combat radius of 410nm.

Unable.

The F-22 has a combat radius of 250nm, if the entire mission if flown at Mach 1.5+. If you supercruise for 100 nautical miles, the total mission range extends out to 410 nautical miles. If you supercruise for 50 nautical miles, the mission range extents to about 500 nautical miles, and if supercruise is eliminated that goes up to 595 nautical miles.

As for Su-27 variants, most put it around 650 nautical miles, probably with two missiles....

With respect to it’s N012 tail radar and WVR dogfights, the Stealth qualities of an F-22 ceases to be of any benefit.

F-15 pilots have commented that they have difficulty locking onto an F-22 WVR, I have all the doubt in the world that some puny radar, which by the way, is not fitted on the Su-35BM, can lock onto the F-22.

Dogfight manoeuvres themselves create radar cross section aspects to the radar which make an F-22 blindingly obvious and that’s without even mentioning the helmet linked OLS-35 IRST sighting system. The advantage of a low radar cross section is a function of range and it has negligible value in WVR combat.

OK...

The Su-37’s Irbis E radar can detect super-low-observable' targets with 0.01 m2 RCS at 90 km range.

That is not super low observable, it is not VLO, it can detect LO targets at 90km. If you go with manufacturer specifications the F-22 is widely acknowledged to be significantly less than 0.01.

A BVR missile launch by an F-22 tends to give the game away and the Su-37 is quite capable of jamming a missile datalink.

As far as I'm concerned, the radar on the Su-35 can only point at one object at a time, on one frequency at a time. Fine, run the datalink on multiple. If that doesn't work, fine, transmit the datalink on the same frequency as the receiver on the missile. If the Flanker tries to jam that then the missile can just follow the source of the radiation, similar to an ANTI-RAD missile.

In order for an F-22 to detect the Su-37 at BVR ranges in an ECM jamming environment, the F-22’s APG-77 has to crank out about 20 Kilowatts to burn through the jammingso he can find the Su-37, thus drawing attention to itself.

That doesn't work.

To focus the jamming energy on the F-22, you have to understand exactly where it is. Otherwise, you're sending out energy so that every Tom, Dick, and Harry, can see who you are, and where you are; incredibly wasteful. That information is useful to the ALR-94 in detecting the Sukhoi...

The AESA on the F-22 has an inherit advantage in that it has ultra low sidelobes, so even if it is not using LPI techniques, it is very difficult to detect unless it's shining directly at the enemies RWR. With the Sukhoi jamming, run the AN/APG-77 at a different frequency, send out a few pulses to get the range, let the ALR-94 get the direction.

By the way, much of the F-22’s ability and effective range of it’s missiles comes from using superior altitude.

Most of the F-22's ability comes from sensors such as the ALR-94, and AN/APG-77, the rest comes from its ability to use stealth, superior missiles, and ability to enter the fight at Mach 1.8, 60,000 feet.

The whole point I am making is that STEALTH cannot hide the F-22 at BVR range from the Irbis E radar and the F-22 cannot detect the Sukhoi against ECM jamming.

That's somewhat backwards.

I would say the F-22 can detect the Su-35BM from the Irbis-E, and thus doesn't need to use radar much.

[edit on 11/2/2009 by C0bzz]

you can even have a penis pump mounted in the cockpit but it doesnt help you with a rocket fired 100 km away ... Not saying the other planes arent cool. They look very cool and definately would perform well at dogfight but why must raptor dogfight the other planes? Because weapons doesnt work? Do you have a plane that without weapons crashes to other planes and survives or something? They are all called fighter jets but spinning around in sky or stalling like a farting monkey only helps birds to dump theire bombs in youre face is my personal opinion? Im not supporting USA but it aint nice to talk about so expensive technology like it doesnt matter because i know it does. You just got to accept that in time

The Ef would win long range. It is primary designed to be extremely manuverable at high speeds when closeing with nme aircraft.
A missle once fired quicky uses its fuel and basically goes balistic, the EF's ability to rapidly jink at high speeds better than the other two ac is what makes it the superior air combatant at missle range. Gun dogfights are extremely rare - guns more used for ground strafe.

However it would all depend on missile used as well, and Americans have superior missles, so the F-22 would be great as well, espically with its stealthier profile.