US electronic warfare useless against Iranian tech?

Originally posted by stumason
I didn't realise we had an Iranian economics and industrial expert here. Wow!

Please give us an insight into how you know "Iran has zero high tech industry". If that was the case, how would they go about producing all the weapon systems they have?

At a glance, they appear to be alot further advanced than you give them credit for:

...

Your not one of these "America is great, everyone else are cave men" types, are you?

A little research before you post is all I ask, instead of spouting off crap.

Thanks stumason for your wisdom, but try to remain polite when you "spout".

Iran’s economy is based on oil and it is not a very efficient industry either. 80% of the economy is oil. The rest is gas and petrochemicals, mining and agriculture.

The Iranian government has sought to diversify and Iran does have some manufacturing industry, such as auto. However, these industries are hardly high tech and significantly reliant on state subsidy. I doubt you would run out and buy an Iranian made car.

The Iranian defence industry rehashes other countries older technology and is hardly high tech in comparison to the west. All this talk about Iran developing fantastically sophisticated missiles and war planes is based on press releases from the State owned Iranian media – hardly reliable or believable.

I am afraid that no matter what is written in Wikipedia I have seen no significant evidence that Iran has any significant high tech industry which can indigenously develop and / or manufacture systems to rival western technology.

I am also definitely NOT American.

Regards

Originally posted by orangetom1999

So how would you spot a frequency generator used in Jamming? Seems to me they would be pretty easy to spot back to the source since they dont have air cover/airborne from which to broadcast. Would it be a matter of finding/locating them and hitting them?

yes of course anything that sends a signal can usally be located.

As soon as the jammer turns on and it's starts to intefear, at that point it can be located and targeted by America or any other first world country with the tech background to do so. I'm pretty sure that certain off the shelf anti-radiation missiles can actually be used to lock onto radio waves from most ground based jammers or if they cant they can be modiyed so that they can.

Hunting down jammers is just like hunting down radar sites with HARM or ALARM(Euro Version).

But often the difficulty is that with regular radio radar it sends signals for dozens of miles at a time so you can locate the signal from miles away but with ground based jammers they are often much weaker and only jam upto something like 1km(1000m) away so to detect them you have to be pretty close to the 1km range otherwise the seeker or detection system will not be able to detect the noise and lock onto the target.

Becuase of American air power which is so powerfull, ground based jammers will last no longer then a few hours if left on. But if the enemy decides to only use them for short periods of time and then move them this may make hitting them much harder.

I think Saddam Hissains people tried this in Iraq where they left the GPS jammers on permenently and they where hit? Does anybody know what hit them. HARM?

So yes basically when they turn on they can be located but also remember it depends on how long they are turned on for becuase once they move any missile sent towards the original target will hit nothing becuase the jammer has already been moved. The real skill is to hit them as fast as possible becuase once they move you will lose them and will only see them again when they are turned on.

Originally posted by orangetom1999
I believe this is how much of our airborne Jamming is done ..blanket jamming of whole frequency spectrums.

Yes basically although America would already know what type of radars the enemy is using before hand through it's CIA or other intelligence groups and then the airborn jammers are sent out to surpress area's. From what i understand the one's that can not be jammed are usally targeted with as much brute force as possible with missiles and ground forces possibly special ops or other groups like artillery?

Originally posted by orangetom1999
As to the other modes of broadcasting or computers..I am not that computer savy to comment on those other than to say it is a matter of time lag...acquiring the data and turning it into usable data.

Thanks,
Orangetom

There will be a lag depending on how complicated the encryption/ecoding algorithm is and also how big the key used to encrypt the data is.

How exactly does Iran know what the U.S. has? Does the U.S. make public its most sophisticated technological findings? The richest country in the world with what seems to be unlimited resources going up against what a third world power? One things for sure, both countrys arnt showing all of there cards... Sure, Iran is not to be underestimated but neither is the good ole U S of A...... Just a thought..

In my very biased opinion the news media is nothing but a shilling instrument for the body politic. Yes they occasionally accurately report the news but mostly it is political commentary or slanting the news for thier respective partys. All of the media...all of them. And public education is paid for by the body politic. So what do you think you are going to get from public education ...just more news bias. They are not going to teach you enough information to decode the news or the body politic itself..no way. They will never give you enough information to put light on them. Understand??

orangetom1999, you are absolutely correct right up to this point; "They are not going to teach you enough information to decode the news or the body politic itself..no way." and even though you are again correct, the fundamental truth is that not all people are automatons by default, and there are vast, vast numbers of people out there who are genetically predisposed to think and function entirely by them selves.

That's called individualism and independence, aka freedom. Look into that one my friend, a lot of pro-life concepts there, and I'm not talking about abortion issues.

I am not just speaking of the News in the United States. I am speaking of the news everywhere. They are all doing it. Short wave listening taught me this long before the advent of home computers..before I could even afford a home computer. Its just up to us ..to learn to navigate this maze of information/disinformation.

Exactly, and yet again, all of us here are on the "Deny IGNORANCE" forum, which in its very core means ones desire to differentiate fact from fallacy, so even though your points on media disinformation are correct, please give some credit to ATS members that fish for their own information rather then choking on a daily regiment of media diet.

While I am speaking of Electronic Warfare...do any of the posters here actually have any idea of what the Electronic Warfare capability is of the United States???
Any of you working in the trade/trades??? I am not talking about what one reads on line..but actually in some arena of the trade??

Are you? Because if it is a yes, do your part.

iqonx, good job.

So how would you spot a frequency generator used in Jamming? Seems to me they would be pretty easy to spot back to the source since they dont have air cover/airborne from which to broadcast. Would it be a matter of finding/locating them and hitting them?

UAV mounted jammers have been around for a long time now. They are cheap, expendable, and very effective in all kinds of ECM applications. Their only limitations are loiter time and limited on board power.

Iran’s economy is based on oil and it is not a very efficient industry either. 80% of the economy is oil. The rest is gas and petrochemicals, mining and agriculture.

That is truly hilarious! It's like saying "Iran's economy is based on the juice of life and it is not a very efficient industry either. 80% of the economy is the juice of life," etc.

paraphi, please do your self a favor and find out what percentage of "oil" ends up in your gas tank, and what percentage is consumed by the ENTIRE industry of human civilization.

Please note that the very buttons you are pressing at the moment, and the mouse you are wiggling around is based on petrochemicals.

I am afraid that no matter what is written in Wikipedia I have seen no significant evidence that Iran has any significant high tech industry which can indigenously develop and / or manufacture systems to rival western technology.

Oh I agree on the issue of Wiki bullcrap, but paraphi, their are numerous reputable sources out there, Janes, FAS, and countless others, and they all state pretty much the same thing when it comes to the issues of Iran's military. Look it up.

The richest country in the world with what seems to be unlimited resources going up against what a third world power?

semperfoo, you're definitely not American. We're broke and in dept. People are loosing houses to forecloses like never before, and it goes down the entire chain.

I live in LA, and our roads are deteriorating really fast through out the entire state, and since the state is running in the red, and no funds to actually fix them up. One TV report tallied up that all the rode holes and worn out freeways cost EVERY driving Californian about $640 dollars per year in extra car repair expenses.

So that "unlimited resources" angle is pure propaganda fluff. We're in big trouble here, over 8 trillion in dept.

Other then 800 thousand regular forces, Iran has a 7+ million "Basige" force, and we all know how that work during US backed Iraq-Iran war.

Make no mistake, Hezbollah was borne entirely out of US support for Saddam, and all Iranians know it. Over 1 million dead makes sure that such memory doesn't fade away in a few years like everything in United States of Amnesia does.

The reason the electronic warfare issue is so detrimental, is precisely because US forces simply simply do not have an option for a ground assault, only from air, and if Iran possesses effective surveillance and ECM network, that air campaign will run into some major problems real quick.

If that air campaign fails to completely destroy Iran's infrastructure and all nuclear sites in a initial strike, (we're talking about 500 cruise missiles in the first wave) Iran will unleash a wave of terror attacks on the scale not yet seen by the world.

Israels adventure in Lebanon clearly showed that even the most massive precision strike bombardment in history failed to neutralize Hezbollah, and the only aspect of success is the complete destruction of Lebanese civilian infrastructure.

We all know how that goes, it only dumps fuel on the fire and creates an entire generation of young martyrs ready and willing to blow them selves up.

Yet again, out "leaders" are playing with fire to stuff the pockets of their benefactors with cash, and its the innocent people on all sides that will be getting burned.

Same old, same old.

Yes, it appears our extremely expensive electromagnetic weapons have no effect on their catapults and flaming bowling balls.

I also doubt that sophisticated U.S. weapons would have any effect on the iranian "high tech" practice of sending children out in front of the revolutionary guard 'troops' - to "look" for mines - as they have previously done.

On second thought, maybe the new focused sound device might have an effect. The children would have to decide between continuing towards the very painful sound device or turning back to be butchered by their own people.

Hello again centurion1211.

I also doubt that sophisticated U.S. weapons would have any effect on the iranian "high tech" practice of sending children out in front of the revolutionary guard 'troops' - to "look" for mines - as they have previously done.

It's true, isn't it just a damn shame (and a sin) when children have to suffer for the ambitions of the rich and powerful?

By the way, who put the mines there in the first place, and why? Cold it be the US sponsorship and arming of the horrible tyrannical dictator named Saddam Hussein?

You know, the fella we armed with the very weapons of mass destruction he used against Iran, AND that Kurd village that rose against him after believing in CIA lies of American air support?

The same weapons Bush used as a reason to destroy Iraq, the same Saddam who we called our best buddy when we wanted him to start a war against Iran?

Does any of that ring a bell? How about that pre-Iraq/Iran war picture in which Rumsfeld was shaking Saddam's hand with a smile from ear to ear?

Any of that sounds familiar?

On second thought, maybe the new focused sound device might have an effect. The children would have to decide between continuing towards the very painful sound device or turning back to be butchered by their own people.

centurion1211, wow, you have a really twisted outlook on life, don't you.

Let me ask you, would you enjoy seeing little children twisting in agonizing pain from an LRAD?

Would you be the kind of guy that would really get of on something as despicable as that, would you?

You're the one who brought it up, you know.

Or how about seeing how an entire crowd of civilians literally squirms under HPM radiation?

Would that get your jollies off? Makes you real proud of USA, while keeping in mind that Japanese were the first ones to develop an RF "death ray", so look at us, we're right there with the very evil empire we decided to nuke on "ethical" bases.

So since we've already used DEWs on civs, does that give the moral ground to somebody to nuke us?

Interesting stuff there centurion1211, so keep it up, and hopefully it a short while we all will get to see the real you.

Another great example of the 'blame all the evil in the world on the U.S.' postings of a person who claims to actually be an American. BTW, the real me is WYSIWYG. No one reading any of my posts should have any doubts. You, on the other hand ...

Well, back to work.

Dos vedanya ...

Originally posted by iskander
You know, the fella we armed with the very weapons of mass destruction he used against Iran, AND that Kurd village that rose against him after believing in CIA lies of American air support?

The same weapons Bush used as a reason to destroy Iraq, the same Saddam who we called our best buddy when we wanted him to start a war against Iran?

It never fails to amaze me how completely ignorant and wrong you are. It was the French and teh Germans who provided Saddam with the CW equipment and knowhow. I suggest you educate yourself, at least once before ging on one of your pointless tirades against the US.

Or how about seeing how an entire crowd of civilians literally squirms under HPM radiation?

As opposed to what, tear gas, or perhaps full metal jackets?

Would that get your jollies off? Makes you real proud of USA, while keeping in mind that Japanese were the first ones to develop an RF "death ray", ...

The Japanese had a totally different scenario and tactical use in mind, hence the "death ray" label. LRAD and high energy weapons are meant to minimize (not eliminate, as you can never do such a thing) the risk of death when it is deemed unnecessary.

Originally posted by iskander
semperfoo, you're definitely not American. We're broke and in dept. People are loosing houses to forecloses like never before, and it goes down the entire chain.
I live in LA, and our roads are deteriorating really fast through out the entire state, and since the state is running in the red, and no funds to actually fix them up. One TV report tallied up that all the rode holes and worn out freeways cost EVERY driving Californian about $640 dollars per year in extra car repair expenses.
So that "unlimited resources" angle is pure propaganda fluff. We're in big trouble here, over 8 trillion in dept.
Other then 800 thousand regular forces, Iran has a 7+ million "Basige" force, and we all know how that work during US backed Iraq-Iran war.
Make no mistake, Hezbollah was borne entirely out of US support for Saddam, and all Iranians know it. Over 1 million dead makes sure that such memory doesn't fade away in a few years like everything in United States of Amnesia does.

You may be correct, however GDP is growing faster then the american debt is. Iran would not be an Iraq I agree.. The millions of ppl they could throw at any military is plain scary.. Mostly for the ppl who are crazy enough to do it... Why do you think the american military is looking so much into metalstorm.com... It would be a massacre for the poor bastards who walked into its path.. Set these babys up right and you could kill a million ppl damn near instantaneously... The public outcry though would be devestating just like the loss of human life.. Lets hope we can all just deal with this in a peaceful manner!

Another great example of the 'blame all the evil in the world on the U.S.' postings of a person who claims to actually be an American. BTW, the real me is WYSIWYG. No one reading any of my posts should have any doubts. You, on the other hand ...

Well, back to work.

Or Monday Night Football maybe? Hey, touchdown! 7:06, zero to six, dang my Russian blood is just boiling over with excitement!

Anyway, my wife is nagging me to go to Costco since I didn't go over the weekend, so now I gotta go to Traders Joe and Costco, and then I have to swing by Cheese Cake Factory, since you know, the Russian life is so hard and all, so I'll just TIVO the game.

And oh, WYSIWYG, you know what I see? An ignorant redneck. Why? Because that’s what I get from you in every single word. And it's my opinion and stuff, so no hard feelings there, right? Since everybody is entitled to one and all? Hey, if you feel free to label me as a Russky, I only feel that it's fare to give you my say.

Prove me wrong if you care to.

Later sport, the game is back on and I gotta go.

Originally posted by orangetom1999
While I am speaking of Electronic Warfare...do any of the posters here actually have any idea of what the Electronic Warfare capability is of the United States???
Any of you working in the trade/trades??? I am not talking about what one reads on line..but actually in some arena of the trade??

Thanks,
Orangetom

Orangetom, I have no idea of US EW capability, which is why this thread is so interesting.

I do understanding packet based data transmission though, so it's surprising to read that a lot of the military equipment is "off the shelf" so to speak. There are some very well informed posters on this forum.

I think the Debka article is relevant as any anti-missile missile jamming technology deployed against the USN in the Gulf could have a significant impact if used succesfully.

Going off on a tangent, I think we'll (unfortunately) see hostilities between Syria and Israel first, followed by unilateral Israeli action against Irans nuclear facilities, in a multifaceted strike. The huge NATO/US naval armada in the region could then be subject to anti-missile missile jamming technology from coastal radar stations as they attempt to contain the regional fallout. That's why the Debka article is of interest as the technology it refers to could equally be applied to the dozens of European ships off the Lebanese/Syrian coast as well as the US navy off the Iranian coast.

Therefore, if the Debka article is correct, the navies of many European countries as well as that of the US could possibly have a lot to worry about in any forthcoming regional conflict. Are the EW capabilities of Europes navies better than that of the US? Time will tell.


[edit on 16-10-2006 by JamesinOz2]

Originally posted by iskander
Anyway, my wife is nagging me to go to Costco since I didn't go over the weekend, so now I gotta go to Traders Joe and Costco, and then I have to swing by Cheese Cake Factory, since you know, the Russian life is so hard and all, so I'll just TIVO the game.

I love your feeble attempts to prove you're an American.

Wow! Wal*mart in China, and now you say that they have Costco in mother russia, too? Total American victory is closer than I thought *** tongue in cheek***

And nah, don't watch pro football. Gotta go build something with my hands - in this case a couple of work benches tonight.

But, for me, give your chubby babushka a pinch and enjoy the borscht. And if Wal*Mart comes to russia, one of these days maybe you can afford to put some real meat in it.



[edit on 10/16/2006 by centurion1211]

centurion1211, you are a fool.

Why don’t you ask a moderator on this forum to PING my IP or something and get it over with. You have my permission for the ping.

It’s from Los Angeles SBC/ATT dsl, and unless you’re delusional enough to consider California to be Russia, stop your babble for your own sake.

Good God, while we’re busy stomping around the world and bombing who we can into the stone age, our own population is getting there faster by them selves and with out the need for high explosives.

I guess it’s all that inbreeding they got going there.

Anyway, centurion1211, have fun being that dense. Have a good one, and keep the rest of your fingers out of the circular, you gotta have something left to scratch your head with.

Originally posted by centurion1211

Originally posted by iskander
Anyway, my wife is nagging me to go to Costco since I didn't go over the weekend, so now I gotta go to Traders Joe and Costco, and then I have to swing by Cheese Cake Factory, since you know, the Russian life is so hard and all, so I'll just TIVO the game.

I love your feeble attempts to prove you're an American.

Wow! Wal*mart in China, and now you say that they have Costco in mother russia, too? Total American victory is closer than I thought *** tongue in cheek***
And nah, don't watch pro football. Gotta go build something with my hands - in this case a couple of work benches tonight.
But, for me, give your chubby babushka a pinch and enjoy the borscht. And if Wal*Mart comes to russia, one of these days maybe you can afford to put some real meat in it.

[edit on 10/16/2006 by centurion1211]

Why do you think hes lieing? why the hell would he lie about being an american in the first place? You ppl have way to much time on your hands to argue about stupid s###!..... whatever its your free time anyways...

[edit on 16-10-2006 by semperfoo]

This may be a minor point, but what difference does it make what background someone has or where they live.

We are all allowed our own opinions her at ATS.

The only difference i could see is someone from Russia "MAY" know a little more about what was/is being sold to Iran.

They also have more info on how it is supposed to act/react to American Equipment- as we seem to be their big tech cold war partners.

Getting back to the subject, other then ECM and comm, IMHO the weakest link in this chain is over reliance on GPS guided munitions.

This is already public;

Members of Cornell's Global Positioning System (GPS) Laboratory have cracked the so-called pseudo random number (PRN) codes of Europe's first global navigation satellite, despite efforts to keep the codes secret. That means free access for consumers who use navigation devices -- including handheld receivers and systems installed in vehicles -- that need PRNs to listen to satellites.

Currently Galileo is the latest GPS system, uses modern data encryption methods, and was designed as an alternative to the aging NAVSTAR network. First satellite of which was sent in orbit back in 1978, and IOC was declared in 1993 with 24 sats total. FOC was reached in 1995.

Some general background on NAVSTAR;

www.springerlink.com...

www.navcen.uscg.gov...

www.navcen.uscg.gov...

space.au.af.mil...

These snippets in particular, because they mention that they were claims that PPS code was cracked by hackers;

www.cs.cmu.edu...

www.cs.cmu.edu...

Chinese already laid down plans for their own GPS network, which operates near the same frequency range as NAVSTAR in order to prevent brute force signal jamming, (L1/2/3, and probably L4 and 5 as well. Anywhere between 1176.45 MHz and 1841.40 MHz) and will use the latest generation of signal encoding.

Localized signal cracking, it’s not just jamming, aka signal “spoofing”, or cracking the P-code to form the Y-code. Selective Availability simply denies full accuracy through managing orbit data navigation message and satellite clock frequency. (epsilon/dither, block II/IIA/IIR/IIR-M).

The more expensive munitions (like cruise missiles) use INS as a back up in case the signal is lost or corrupted, yet a number of GPS guided BGMs did stray of course in Iraqi campaigns, and allegations of portable Russian GPS jammer use were made.

As I recall, the allegations went as far as stating that Russian technicians were on the ground, manning the jammers in question.

Majority of GPS munitions either malfunctioning entirely, or operating with severely degraded capabilities, this forcing closure of the engagement ranges, with natural consequences. INS is not accurate enough for targeting, and is susceptible to integration drift to the critical point.

The phase-shift Sagnac effect is more robust, but size always matters. Ring laser gyros are more sensitive, the electromagnetic peaks/valleys of the light are supposed to lock together. No difference of frequencies, no measurement. Is it susceptible to electromagnetic jamming? Could be.

Alternatives? Ground mapping guidance, radar/IR/TV/laser guidance, all suffer from limited and aging inventory in comparison to overwhelming numbers of cheap GPS guided weapons currently in deployment.

Iranians had fifteen years to prepare for the typical mass air attack, and seeing what happened in Lebanon, it is already evident that they learned the lessons of Iraq.

Iraq's command and control was demolished completely in a matter of days, but their bunkers did hold repeated bunker buster attacks. Iranians have literally been moving dirt continuously, and have been actively beefing up their electronic warfare network. Their recent Kolchuga purchase from Ukraine is clear evidence of that.

There is no doubt that Hezbollah's network was arranged just as that of Iran, as a decentralized, clustered by-pass command type network, arranged in cells corresponding to their assigned sectors/grids. That’s a problem.

Literally thousands of targets have to be continuously identified and prioritized, and high value targets are sure to be so heavily hardened, that USAF will need to get up close and personal to take them out, and with out any harassment.

No wonder Bush was pushing for tactical nuclear bunker busters, and I would not be surprised if orbital DU slugs will be used to hit high priority command and control bunkers, if they can be correctly identified and taken out in a proper sequence.

Serbs heavily used all kinds of decoys, which severely decreased the effectiveness of bombing sorties, and Iranians sure did pay attention to that one.

Back in Iraq/Iran war, when Iranians were winning and US stepped in, US Navy took out half of Iranian fleet with ease, and Iranians sure are set not to let it happen again.

Sunburn, Yakhont, Shvkal, etc, all will cause some serious headaches for the Navy, and will force a buffer zone which will severely limit carrier operations. Since air bases in Iraq/Afghanistan are plentiful, I don’t think Navy will be particularly interested in taking risks of high casualties in light of the Hezbollah anti-ship missile attack on Saar 5 corvette.

Iranians know all well that in order to repel a massive American air attack they absolutely need a robust electronic warfare network, and they had a LONG time to build one.

Will USAF have air superiority? Absolutely. Air supremacy? Questionable. Air dominance, absolutely not, and with out air dominance bombing sorties will be continuously harassed, thus reducing their effectiveness and prolonging the conflict, just as it happened in Lebanon, and eventually boots will have to be put on the ground, which in case of Iran is simply not an option.

My two cents.

Originally posted by JamesinOz2
Orangetom, I have no idea of US EW capability, which is why this thread is so interesting.

I do understanding packet based data transmission though, so it's surprising to read that a lot of the military equipment is "off the shelf" so to speak. There are some very well informed posters on this forum.

I think the Debka article is relevant as any anti-missile missile jamming technology deployed against the USN in the Gulf could have a significant impact if used succesfully.

Going off on a tangent, I think we'll (unfortunately) see hostilities between Syria and Israel first, followed by unilateral Israeli action against Irans nuclear facilities, in a multifaceted strike. The huge NATO/US naval armada in the region could then be subject to anti-missile missile jamming technology from coastal radar stations as they attempt to contain the regional fallout. That's why the Debka article is of interest as the technology it refers to could equally be applied to the dozens of European ships off the Lebanese/Syrian coast as well as the US navy off the Iranian coast.
[edit on 16-10-2006 by JamesinOz2]

JamesinOz2,

I tend to agree. I think we will be seeing hostilities between Israel and Syria..also Israel and Iran.

My instincts are that this excursion into Lebanon was to ferret out what the Syrians and the Iranians can do..how they operate ...how they will resupply..what are their actual capabilities...for the war which is actually coming. To get them both to tip their hands. YOu do not go to war like this over a couple of guys kidnapped or killed. It just isnt done.
I do know that when events like this occur there are large numbers of observers on the sidelines taking data. This was true of the United States in the Falklands Islands War involving the Brits and the Argentines. Large numbers of US Military officials were there taking data and relaying this back to the appropriate officials in Washington DC and points west. I am certain that this was the case in Lebanon. In otherwords ..the Israelis did alot of the leg work for us...and themselves for what is coming.
The issue will not be if a bigger war is coming but when...why will be academic then. I think it has been coming for some time ..even before 9/11. I say this because the position of the nation called Israel is becoming economically and resource wise untenable. This view is being kept carefully out of the news. THe tell tale of this is the Israelis giving up so much territory. THey are consolidating their position for what is coming.

I do agree with Isklander on one thing. Most Americans are asleep at the wheel here..

How about those Detroit Tigers...American Idol,Survivor.. etc etc. All this entertainment drivel to keep us occupied and unthinking. Deny Ignorance. Isklander is in the X-ring on this one.

Like one of the posters...I dont watch sports..Not intrested. Much better things to do with my time and moneys.

As to our ECM capabilitys ..it is much further along than most of the public need to know..our enemies too. Much further than you will read in "Janes" and other publications.
Where we are lacking is in intelligence gathering capabilities. Especially olde fashioned spying. Hence the need for ferreting out and watching what happens. It is only prudent to do so if you lack other working intelligence means....and working against a timetable.

One more thing Jamesin0z2..what is your experience with packet based data transmission. I am curious about this??

Thanks,
Orangetom

Like one of the posters...I dont watch sports..Not intrested. Much better things to do with my time and moneys.

I hear you. I rarely do my self, but I have to say it was a great game. Arizona was leading 20 nil by 2nd, but Chicago just pummeled them in 3rd and 4th, and won 24 to 23. What a comeback.

To be honest, I actually watch more football in my mom in laws house then I do in my own!

As to our ECM capabilitys ..it is much further along than most of the public need to know..our enemies too. Much further than you will read in "Janes" and other publications.

I hear you there to. Enough said.

Where we are lacking is in intelligence gathering capabilities. Especially olde fashioned spying.

Yep. I serious step back there. A steady decline since 91, and a massive one during Bushes “reign”. Not to mention 9/11. Sleeping at the wheel is right.