Do you "Hate" the United States?

I love America- land of the free...May we all continue to be "free"...

I would gladly fight for our freedom, if necessary. I would not fight just on the whim of some president who happens to be a warmonger, however.

BTW, are we protected from North Korea, or are we still placing all our focus on the Middle East?

As an American, i do not feel safe.

That should be based on your own point of view. I may not be "anti-american",but I think that we should give this government of ours a good tune-up. I personally think that the moral code of america is diminishing. We need to get up and do something,so that our true "americanism" can be restored. I ask you,can we afford to be looked upon by others as we are? We are called "imperialists",but is that true? Why should we care if people hate us? If we are strong and unified,why should we care? The fact that this matters to us shows us how weak we truly are. We need to stick to ourselves and not worry about the thoughts of others.

America is the the most powerful nation on earth.

With power comes responsibility. When countries are in a crisis, they turn to America. When everything does not turn out hunky dory, we can quickly see who the finger will be pointed at. Now America is no innocent victim here, they have stepped on many toes and burned alot of bridges in their day.

However, I do not feel they are entitled to alot of the scutiny they endure. Average Americans are criticized for the decisions made by a politician, thats just wrong. Sure it is a democratic state, and these people were elected by the people. But anyone who believes it is a government of the people, for the people, by the people has, is what we might call naive.

Average Joes should not have to answer for the mistakes made by our administrations.

Remember Bin Laden in his interview before 9/11. He was quoted as saying, he see's no difference in soliders and civilians. They are all the enemy in his eyes. Why?

It is unfortunate that innocent people die due to the mistakes of a select few.

Originally posted by chissler
Nobody said Denying Ignorance would be easy.

So true.

But yes, it is absolutely jaw wrenching to come across people so prejudicial.

Human nature, though?

Nobody is willingly to admit you can be a pompous bastard on your own merit, it has to be that your American.

Hey, hey! I resemble that mention.

I am very open to criticism, but I do find comments like those are the rare bread to get a rise out of me. I completely understand BT.

Likewsie, among other unmentionables.

Just like me being an ingrate because I am from eastern Canada. Or Newfoundlanders have lower IQ scores because of their horrible accent. (That we Cape Bretoners share)

I understand this thread is to discuss the American aspect, but it stems so much farther.

Prejudice, whether extreme or not, always stems further than the surfaced elements reveal.

Everything is tossed out the window though when you correct a person on their prejudices with factual information, but they are too stunned and can not get out of their own way. It is unfortunate to say but some people are helpless.

Or simply so caught up in what they believe to be correct, right, or true, that no matter the amount of factual or counterfactual evidence that is given, it will not matter enough to change their perspectives or prejudices.

Originally posted by dgtempe
I love America- land of the free...May we all continue to be "free"...

I would gladly fight for our freedom, if necessary. I would not fight just on the whim of some president who happens to be a warmonger, however.

BTW, are we protected from North Korea, or are we still placing all our focus on the Middle East?

What would you say if the U.S. attacked North Korea? I have heard this particular piece of rhetoric a bit too often as of late. I am sure that you yourself have read questions on this very site asking why did the U.S. attack Iraq when North Korea is a real threat.

But, because President George Bush attacked Iraq, instead of North Korea, this makes him a "warmonger"?

dgtempe, I love reading your posts. You often make wonderful posts that are insightful and poignant. However your irrational hatred for George Bush has, perhaps, clouded your judgement.

George Bush did not order U.S. troops into Iraq on a whim. Nor did he do so without the full consent of Congress. There were plenty of key Democrats who took the same stance against Saddam Hussein and his regime;

George Bush vs Bill Clinton, Republicans vs Democrats or the hypocrisy of ideological adherence


If George Bush is the "devil" then so are many of the key Democrats who voted for the war right along side Bush's Satanic minions -- the Republicans.

dgtempe, I'm not defending George Bush and I'm not attacking the Democrats, I'm simply calling a spade a spade. Clinton was certainly no better or worse than Bush except for the fact that he has what Bush could never have -- an undeniable sense of charisma.

As for attacking North Korea, or, rather, why the U.S. doesn't attack North Korea, it's very simple. The North Koreans never needed or depended upon nukes to keep the U.S. from invading they had another deterrent -- artillery. I know it sounds silly to think that an "outdated" artillery piece could be considered a deterrence but when you consider that North Korea has over 13,000 artillery guns placed in hardened bunkers all within range of Seoul, South Korea's capital deterrence takes on a more conventional but effective face.

Artillery

North Korea has an estimated 13,000 artillery sites stationed in secure bunkers, many of which are aimed at targets in and around the South Korean capital, Seoul. Such a large collection of artillery could potentially drop 300,000 shells per hour on the city.
Indeed, the presence of such a large force is seen by many as a significant threat. However, due to the fact that U.S. officials believe every fourth round has a chemical tip, the artillery arm of the DPRK military could inflict a considerable amount of casualties upon the population of South Korea. militaryhistory.about.com...

When one considers that Seoul, South Korea is the fifth largest city in the world with a population of over ten million people, conventional weapons massed in concentrated fire could easily be considered a WMD.

Another reason why the U.S. doesn't attack North Korea is simple, militarily, strategically and politically, this would be far more difficult for the U.S. to do. But I am sure that if North Korea rattles it's sabres and fires off a few more nukes while the Great Leader pompously threatens the U.S. and allies in the region, I am sure that Bush or his Democrat successor will definitely attack.

I know that I digress from the main topic of this thread but hatred or President Bush is certainly an aspect that should be explored. Perhaps the thread should have been titled "Do you hate President George Bush"? It certainly seems like this collective hatred for Bush is due to the war on Iraq. Yet is this a rational hatred? Would we have hated Clinton had he attacked? Or, in keeping with the theme of the thread, would the United States and Americans be hated if this had been Clinton's war or Kerry's?




[edit on 10/12/2006 by benevolent tyrant]

I wouldn't say I'm currently proud to be an American, just at the moment theres nothing to be proud of. We've thrown our own constitution out the window and we're currently being run by a bunch of war mongers.

Its easy to see why a lot of countries hate us. The thing is, even though the people aren't responsible for what the government does, there are a lot of arrogant Americans. Our country is very arrogant. A lot of us still think we're the best country, which isn't true. Its almost subtle propaganda when you really look at it. Sure its not as bad as it was during the cold war, but it still happens.

Take the flag salute for instance. I was talking to my friend from the Netherlands over MSN many months ago and I told him about the flag salute we do everyday at school. He thought it was the most bizzare thing he ever heard, he even equated it to brainwashing. I really thought about it, and its kinda true. What other country does something like that besides a fascist or communist country?

[edit on 10/12/2006 by Kacen]

Originally posted by Seekerof

Originally posted by chissler
But yes, it is absolutely jaw wrenching to come across people so prejudicial.

Human nature, though?

Ahh but that is no excuse.

Well Maaaa! All the kids were doing it!


Loved that post though Seeker.

Originally posted by benevolent tyrant
As many of you know, I am an American. I just happen to live in Canada. I am a dual citizen (through marriage). And, frankly, I prefer to live in Canada. Canada is a wonderful and, until recently, a tolerant country.

In the past few months, when I go to social gatherings, I have, at times, been "singled out" as an American. Somehow, I have been lumped into a category that seems to include Nazis, warmongers and imperialists. I have been chastised (as if I had anything to do with "anything" that the U.S. government happens to do). I have been scorned and even ridiculed. Yes, scorned and ridiculed; "Oh he's an American, watch what you say or he'll "put you on his list". Oh sure, it was meant, probably, in good fun but it does not speak well of what the future holds. Are Americans to become a nation of paraiahs? Will Americans be shunned, scorned and ridiculed throughout the world?

In social settings, where people have not known that I was an American, I have been privy to conversations that were, frankly, filled with derision against "egotistical, arrogant, self-righteous, pompous, ignorant, war-mongering, blood-thirsty, elitist, dumb bastard Americans. These are all actual labels that I have heard with my own two ears. Now I might be a pompous bastard myself but this certainly isn't because I'm an American.

Maybe I'm a bit too sensitive but, nonetheless, I find this attitude troubling. I did not sense this sort of anti-American sentiment last year.....but in the past few months, it has been increasing and I have become well aware of it.

It would be very easy for me to simply deny being an American. You know, I can "pass" as a Canadian quite easily....eh but I refuse to lie, deny or simply, conveniently, fail to mention being an American. I am proud of being an American and I am proud of being Canadian. These are two fine nations that hold and maintain principles for which I would, most definitely, defend. But I am troubled by the very bigoted opinions and downright slanderous statements and attitudes that are being pinned on the United States and it's citizens.

And there you will find what will ultimately bring about the end of the last world super power, ushering in an age of darkness after an age of scientific enlightenment. Wars will break out like never before as the international system begin to collapse. America is hated world wide because there is no longer an opposing threat. The world was safer in the days of the Cold War, when people feared communism, feared nuclear war. Now we live intolerance, every one is equal and on the world scale every one but America is equal, we placed our selves above them morally and above international moral standards, we went to war against small countries, a thing that no Empire should do because it makes us look like a monster.

We do however hold the right to boast about our greatness.. we have achieved a massive military power, the likes of which have never been seen on earth in human history and we do not use an once of the power we really could.. we could with our technology destroy the world many times over, with conventional troops we could create a conscript army and decimate any one we damn well felt like destroying on any particular day. We don't, we hold back because we set our selves to the same standards we expect the rest of the western world to abide by.

We also have an enormous economy.. another aspect that will be our down fall.. we have created a corporate monster.. modern oligarchy mixed with modern feudalism.. any one man can create for himself an empire and stretch it around the world, with the billions he earns he can buy out any one he wants, maybe get a personal congressmen just to do his bidding. The rampant corporate America has hijacked the American political system. Now the beast that we created will continue to consume until the ones it feeds off of can no longer support it.. we go to war to keep the military industrial complex rolling because after an economic default with the dot coms, we needed to boost the war economy.. if we loose all or even a small majority of the military industrial complex the economic fall out will be horrendous.. we are ingrained with it.. we need it, and we hate it.

We give more aid then any nation on earth, no one competes with America when it comes to donations.. after Katrina even though the middle class is strapped with cash, forced to pay higher gas prices, stagnant wages.. they still donated more money for one event then any other event in world history.. same with 9/11, same with the tsunami, and they were not America. That is like paying an extra tax, billions given away for the sake of others who face hard times. The people of this country want to do good and cannot be blamed for their governments actions. It is a game the government plays, the exact same game that has been played since the Roman times and before. The strong will grow stronger, in the process hurt the smaller guys, in the end they will be so large that they loose track of themselves and destroy them selves from within.

I personally love America and what it stands for, I personally think we are entering a time where we either fall down hard, split through civil war, or we will readjust our selves and continue on in a new path.

Either way, be afraid if you wish America to fall.. because it can, like any empire in history in a relatively short amount of time the empire could grind to a halt and the republic could disintegrate.. But big super powers have never gone down without a fight, and eventually faced with the inevitable we will strike out hard, real hard, all out war in a last ditch effort to save our selves and the war will be a catastrophe for all of mankind..

There is a lot of dissent on the board, allot of anti-Americans, even though they won't admit it.. they hate their own country, or if they do not live here, they hate it for the wrong reasons.. they think being the strongest nation means we can live in peace.. we have to do the dirty work of our allies, the UN needs something WE go in, WE finance it. We have all the little guys in the world looking at us, hating us because of their own situation, they blame us for our wealth and their poverty..

Being the world super power is painting a rather large red bulls-eye on our selves, we will face the brunt of all the world problems in some way, being the super power forces us into violent situations.. small countries like say Canada don't deal with these problems because they don't hold the clout, the responsibility, and are harder to blame for other peoples problems.

Just my opinion.

A persons distaste for a nation should not trickle down to the individuals themselves.

That is what BT has had to endure, and it is wrong.

Originally posted by Kacen
We've thrown our own constitution out the window and we're currently being run by a bunch of war mongers.

I hope that you include the Democrats when you say that "war mongers currently run the country.

Originally posted by Kacen
Its easy to see why a lot of countries hate us. The thing is, even though the people aren't responsible for what the government does, there are a lot of arrogant Americans. Our country is very arrogant. A lot of us still think we're the best country, which isn't true. Its almost subtle propaganda when you really look at it. Sure its not as bad as it was during the cold war, but it still happens.

Arrogant people abound. Arrogance is not exclusively an American trait. What? There are no arrogant Russians? Swedes? Chinese? Isn't arrogance a personality trait?

As for thinking that one's country is the best country in the whole world, what's wrong with that? Can't Norwegians or Canadians lay claim to that statement? Both of these nations have been listed as being the best countries in the world by the UN in recent years. Of course they can. They have a lot to be proud about. In the same vein, Americans have a lot to be proud about as well. The U.S. is a beautiful country, rich in resources and natural wonders. Technologically, the U.S. is second to none. Americans are, for the most part, well educated, healthy and prosperous when compared to the vast majority of the world. Isn't it natural for people to think of "their" country as being the "best in the world"? Just look at the nationalistic fervor that comes to the forefront when the World Cup of Soccer or the Olympics take place.

Can one hate Americans for being patriotic?

Originally posted by Kacen
Take the flag salute for instance. I was talking to my friend from the Netherlands over MSN many months ago and I told him about the flag salute we do everyday at school. He thought it was the most bizzare thing he ever heard, he even equated it to brainwashing. I really thought about it, and its kinda true. What other country does something like that besides a fascist or communist country?

The flag salute? Do you mean the Pledge of Allegiance? If not, then yeah, that is weird. Nevertheless, in Canadian schools, the kids sing the Canadian National Anthem before their school day begins. I'm sure that different countries do different patriotic or nationalistic actions in their schools. Before the Supreme Court removed all reference to God or religion from public institutions, the Lord's Prayer was a common start to a kid's school day -- would that have been a fascistic or communistic thing to do?

I've often been accused of anti-Americanism on this board. It's a complex issue. There are many things about American culture I find distasteful, but most of my cultural icons and heroes are or were Americans. When I was visiting New York, my friend took me on what if memory serves was called the "World Yacht" cruise for my birthday. A wonderful meal on a boat ride that circled Manhattan. We went up on deck as we passed the Statue of Liberty, and I was moved to tears because it's such a beautiful symbol and yet the ideal is honoured more in the breach than the observance.

I have many treasured American friends, and as I've said, many of my heroes are or were American: Mark Twain, Cannonball Adderley, Miles Davis, Noam Chomsky, Frank Zappa, Eddie Van Halen, Danny Gatton, Jaco Pastorius, Charlie Hunter are just a few off the top of my head. The great artform of the 20th Century, Jazz, was created in America and could only have been created there. It's interesting that without slavery it's doubtful that jazz would exist today.

However there are many things about US culture that I find distasteful, to say the least. First, and above all, is the question of patriotism.

When I was a child it always struck me as funny that people would stand up and toast the Queen after her televised Christmas speech. As I grew older this seemed more and more bizarre and quaint (and now it seems just plain nuts, frankly). What had this person done that was so useful that they should be awarded such respect? My questions got answers like, "they stayed in London through the blitz" and "they're good for tourism"... which I found frankly unconvincing. I always thought that people who waved the flag were rather pompus and pathetic, and often had unsavoury connections with the far right. (In that day and age, to be too right-wing was to be heading in the same direction as the Nazi party. This is a lesson that America seems to have forgotten.) It's only recently that I came across a quotation from Einstein that sums this up: from memory, it's: "flags are a sad reminder that man is still a herd animal".

I also had a real lesson about the nature of patriotism. When I was 21, the Falkland Islands were occupied by Argentina. I woke up one morning to find the issue being debated in a televised parliamentary session. I was incandescent with rage. Who were these people invading us? Let me at 'em! KILL!

After about five minutes, I calmed down enough to ask myself... er... where are the Falklands exactly? What d'you mean, they're out there? Well, they're kind of on Argentina's doorstep. Could we not have seen this coming? And... THAT explains that weird news item a few weeks back where Argentinian forces planted a flag on some tiny nearby island! Hmm... someone in the FCO should definitely have seen this coming.

But my point is, for five minutes, I, who considers myself a reasonably balanced, thoughtful human being, would quite gladly have eviscerated the people who invaded my country. I've never filled my head with any of the guff about what a great country I live in, never felt especially proud to be British - partly because I'm of Irish descent and have at least some idea of how the Empire was run (not pretty). Even I would have bayoneted an Argie, for perpaps five minutes. So I know that patriotism is a potent force indeed.

Now I lived and worked on cruise ships for many years, and for some of that time my home port was in the US. I lived in American culture, met a lot of Americans, and was there for 9/11. And I have to say that the thought control operated by the US government is frightening indeed, and hinges on a singularly ugly and pernicious use of the patriotic instinct. (I call it an instinct because that's how it seemed to me during my own access of patriotic fervour.) Every day, schoolkids salute a flag and recite the pledge of allegiance. It all seems normal... but it's not. I can't think of another country in the world that does it. And what it does, it renders people incapable of rational thought when that flag is waved in front of their faces. I'm with George Carlin when he says that "symbols are for the symbol-minded". And the emotional charge of that particular symbol eradicates the potential for rational thought.

We in the UK live in a post-Imperial society. There are figures of fun who epitomise the kind of pompous arrogance that is required to run an Empire: Colonel Blimp and John Bull, with their enormous bellies straining against Union Flag waistcoats, their hyper-patriotism, and their utter humourlessness. They are archetypes of the authoritarian personality. and that kind of belligerent hypocrisy is absolutely essential to the business of running an Empire.

If you're going to run an Empire, the thing that you absolutely must not do is admit to yourself that you're going out and invading other countries and subjugating their peoples for your own, personal, selfish, economic ends. That would never do. You couldn't put your heart and soul into it. Therefore, you have to do a little trick to salve your conscience: you have to persuade yourself that you are bringing civilisation to the poor, benighted natives. This, of course, is ludicrous on its face, but the illusion must be maintained at all costs. As a society goes into its post-Imperial stage, the illusion becomes obvious and embarrassing.

I guess that what I'm saying is that the US is, and has been for the past hundred years, an Imperial society, and there are distortions within the national psyche as a result. If you doubt it goes back that far, read Mark Twain on the invasion of the Philippines. It's an extraordinary series of essays that nails the hypocrisy of a rhetoric that is eerily contemporary. There is also the necessary denial of certain very pertinent aspects of US policy towards other countries; one of the reasons that Chomsky is revered so widely outside and inside the US is that he restores certain pertinent facts to the historical record that are omitted by the official, approved accounts.

To this day, there are aspects of British Imperial history that are not taught in the UK. I only recently found out that the first British troops to be deployed in WWI went... to Iraq. The fact that the Germans were building an extension to the Orient Express running from Istanbul to Baghdad -where they could directly compete with Britain for access to oil - makes a lot more sense as a casus belli than the assassination of some minor European nobleman. I never understood that whole Franz Ferdinand nonsense when I was at school but I kind of swallowed it, as you do.

There's also the "win at any cost" aspect of US culture which I find demeaning and oppressive, and it fits right in with the political ethos there. One of my prevailing interests from an early age was the concept of fairness. It's probably why I did a law degree. There's also a rather endearing concept of fairness in English culture epitomised by the saying "it's just not cricket". There are certain things you just don't do, for entirely inchoate and inexpressible reasons. Kicking someone when they're down is one of them. Triumphalism is right out. That's why we cringe when football louts sing "one world cup and two world wars, doo-dah, doo-dah" at visiting German supporters (although we sneakily enjoy the robust humour).

So what I see as being unwholesome and prevalent in US culture is a hypocrisy attendant on being an imperial power. I doubt very much that I'd have found much to like in Victorian society, either. They're both clinically quite fascist - the parallels are rather revealing. At the same time that people would cover their table legs for being too suggestive, there was a culture of whoring: and in the US we see a similar tension between the sexualisation of the society and a marked prudishness - I note with interest a case in which a teacher was fired for taking her pupils on a previously agreed trip to a museum in which there was a nude sculpture. Parents complained, and she was sacked.

And it may seem paradoxical, but I kind of like Dubya. Anyone familiar with the historical record knows that the one constant about US relationships with other countries is that the table is always tilted in the US' favour. (For example, the Marshall Plan, which is always cited as an example of American generosity, was the opportunity for the negotiators to dismantle the economic relationships between Britain and its colonies and step into that advantageous position.) With a smoothie like Clinton at the helm, this illusion could be maintained. But anyone without the blinders that handicap many American citizens can look at Bush and at once recognise him as a symptom of a political system that is irremediably corrupted. Plus, he's just... hilarious. Unfortunately, he's got a large military and an addict's need to use it, which makes him very dangerous

I remember when I was working on the ships that while Bush was merely a candidate, comedians could satirise him with impunity: but the instant he took office, he was imbued with some magic that meant that making jokes about him was completely unacceptable. A couple of years later I was conversing with a woman whom otherwise I found an intelligent and wise person, and she said "one of the reasons I don't like him is he makes a terrible father to the nation". Perhaps the monarchy do have a use after all: perhaps their function is to act like a lightning-rod for this kind of pernicious irrationality, allowing us to look at people like Blair as the unscrupulous chancers they so evidently are.

Sorry if this has been a bit of a meandering rant. Personally, I really like Canada: it's like the best aspects of US and UK culture combined.

[edit on 12-10-2006 by rich23]

Originally posted by forestlady
I have to admit that I don't have alot of respect for our govt or our own people right now. There's a reason why we're stereotyped as "the Ugly American." I love what my country is supposed to stand for, what it used to stand for, I was always proud to be an American. We were the great liberators, the haven for oppressed peoples but now we have become the oppressors. I don't like the American govt much at this time.

OK, now I"ll put on my flame-retardant cape as the Americans on this board I'm sure will be calling me unpatriotic, a traitor, etc.

There are more than a few of us, your fellow Americans, who agree with you 100 %. So I guess the flammers will just have to lump us all together.

I greatly fear for our country and it makes me ill to see what horrible changes have taken place.

And at this point, as far as it's gone, I don't know if we can fix it or not without seeing something dire transpire.

Originally posted by chissler
A persons distaste for a nation should not trickle down to the individuals themselves.

That is what BT has had to endure, and it is wrong.

Thanks for,once again, being the voice of reason.

It is wrong, however, to hate anyone for irrational, illogical reasons, often with ulterior motivations.

Originally posted by benevolent tyrant
I hope that you include the Democrats when you say that "war mongers currently run the country.

The democrats are more anti-war, atleast anti-this war. But not all Republicans are necessarily pro-war. It tends to be the Republicans in general though. Mind you I don't consider myself a Democrat or a Republican.

Originally posted by benevolent tyrant
Arrogant people abound. Arrogance is not exclusively an American trait. What? There are no arrogant Russians? Swedes? Chinese? Isn't arrogance a personality trait?

As for thinking that one's country is the best country in the whole world, what's wrong with that? Can't Norwegians or Canadians lay claim to that statement? Both of these nations have been listed as being the best countries in the world by the UN in recent years. Of course they can. They have a lot to be proud about. In the same vein, Americans have a lot to be proud about as well. The U.S. is a beautiful country, rich in resources and natural wonders. Technologically, the U.S. is second to none. Americans are, for the most part, well educated, healthy and prosperous when compared to the vast majority of the world. Isn't it natural for people to think of "their" country as being the "best in the world"? Just look at the nationalistic fervor that comes to the forefront when the World Cup of Soccer or the Olympics take place.

Can one hate Americans for being patriotic?

Theres being patriotic and then theres nationalism. You don't have to think your the best country to be patriotic. Realistically, a lot of countries are better than the US in many ways. And in all honesty, the US is pretty backwards and conservative compared to a lot of European countries and Canada (even though the current Canadian government is conservative).

I never said there was anything wrong with all American culture I'm just criticizing the way a lot of things work here.

Originally posted by benevolent tyrant
The flag salute? Do you mean the Pledge of Allegiance? If not, then yeah, that is weird. Nevertheless, in Canadian schools, the kids sing the Canadian National Anthem before their school day begins. I'm sure that different countries do different patriotic or nationalistic actions in their schools.

Yes I'm referring to the Pledge of Allegiance, and I wasn't aware that in Canada they sing the National Anthem everyday at school. Sorry.

Originally posted by benevolent tyrant
Before the Supreme Court removed all reference to God or religion from public institutions, the Lord's Prayer was a common start to a kid's school day -- would that have been a fascistic or communistic thing to do?

Well it sure wouldn't be a communist thing, communism is anti-religion last time I checked. And religion in the government...well thats another problem with the US but I do not want to start a "separation of church and state" debate.

[edit on 10/12/2006 by Kacen]

Originally posted by benevolent tyrant
Arrogant people abound. Arrogance is not exclusively an American trait. What? There are no arrogant Russians? Swedes? Chinese? Isn't arrogance a personality trait?

I've sat in many bars all over the world, and I have to say that one of the recurring themes in American Bar Talk that I have noticed is, "they all wanna live here, man!" (I sometimes toy with the idea of saying "actually, I don't, for one", but that would just be compounding unpleasantness.)

And I would say that the fact that neither Canadians nor Norwegians are overweeningly proud of their country is entirely connected to their countries' successes. The kind of hyperpatriot chest-beating so often seen in arrogant Americans (and, sorry, BT, they do exist - not that I think you are one by any means, but they are about, even on this board) is a psychological defence mechanism against interior issues.

Arrogance is an imperial trait. It's the necessary conviction that your country is better that ensures that you can go and conquer other countries and bring the dubious benefits of your way of life to them, or at least subjugate them. Who are the peoples renowned for being arrogant? They've all been imperialists in their day: the Germans, the Japanese, the Americans, the British, the French. All tagged with the adjective.

One of the most revealing personal experiences I had was during a cruise where my ship had a huge, huge, Israeli presence. I (having a lot of free time as a musician) was doing a part-time job selling shore excursions, and I have to say that I was utterly shocked at how rude and arrogant the Israelis were as a rule. Now before anyone rushes to accuse me of anti-Semitism, I have LOADS of Jewish friends and at one time lived in a part of North London where pretty much ALL my friends were Jewish. It was a fascinating insight into a significantly different culture to the one I grew up in. But the Israelis were different and I actually found myself thinking that they reminded me of the cliched Germans from WWII movies who treat everyone else as untermenschen.

Israel may not be an imperial nation, but it's up to some pretty indefensible stuff with regard to the Palestinians and I think that the same psychological defence mechanisms apply. If you're going to act in that way, you have to justify it by forcibly asserting your own superiority.

As for thinking that one's country is the best country in the whole world, what's wrong with that?

Simple logic dictates that we can't all be right about that: common sense suggests that it can lead to a fight; and there simply isn't any need for it.

Americans are, for the most part, well educated, healthy and prosperous when compared to the vast majority of the world.

This is a huge issue, and to some extent, off topic. But George Carlin has some pretty succinct things to say on US education... and a while ago I found a website that went into considerable historical detail supporting his contention that "the owners of this country want obedient workers... just smart enough to run the machines and do the paperwork" and not capable of critical thinking. I wish I'd bookmarked it because I can't find it. But material on the subject is out there, and available for research.

And in terms of health care... the US has massive extremes of wealth and poverty. Most of the stupendous wealth is concentrated in the hands of a tiny proportion of the people, and the slope is getting steeper with every passing year. The propaganda of the mainstream media is concentrated on making this seem natural and normal, even desirable.

Isn't it natural for people to think of "their" country as being the "best in the world"?

Actually, no. It's not particularly natural. You might love your country, but it doesn't have to be at the expense of everyone else's country. See, that's actually arrogant to think that, and disrespects everyone else on the planet.

Can one hate Americans for being patriotic?

Well, you make it sound so innocent. But patriotism is a dangerous emotion to rouse, and when it's combined with arrogance and triumphalism, trust me, it's not attractive.

Originally posted by Kacen
Take the flag salute for instance. I was talking to my friend from the Netherlands ...He thought it was the most bizzare thing he ever heard, he even equated it to brainwashing.

YES! Good for you, Kacen. One of the best things I ever read was a short school essay by an American child. I don't know how it slipped past the censors, frankly (alert - there may be some irony in the preceding clause) but it made the point that Americans treat their flags better than they treat the homeless. You can't let the flag touch the ground and all that good BS... but homeless people sleep on the ground all the time. As George Carlin puts it (I'm a recent convert to GC, a true independent thinker), "symbols are for the symbol-minded". How many dumb songs are there about the American flag, for heaven's sake? I've had to play lots of them, and they are asinine in the extreme, and full of the worst kind of sentimentality.

And while the Canadians may sing their National Anthem in schools, this kind of behaviour is not common in Europe by any means, and is regarded as brainwashing. If you have to be taught to love your country, there's something suspect about that. Loving your country is like loving your parents, you just do it naturally unless they beat and starve you.

[edit on 12-10-2006 by rich23]

Originally posted by benevolent tyrant
I have been chastised (as if I had anything to do with "anything" that the U.S. government happens to do). I have been scorned and even ridiculed. Yes, scorned and ridiculed...

In social settings, where people have not known that I was an American, I have been privy to conversations that were, frankly, filled with derision against "egotistical, arrogant, self-righteous, pompous, ignorant, war-mongering, blood-thirsty, elitist, dumb bastard Americans. These are all actual labels that I have heard with my own two ears.

I've gotten that all my adult life from Americans because I am a veteran of the war in Vietnam.

I created a thread couple weeks ago titles 'Why I hate US?'.......talked in detail about it.......however I made a mistake in it.....the title was supposed to be 'Why I hate US Government?'.......i did not know how to change the title.....but anyway.....i made it clear in my thread about the error.

I have travelled a lot and lived in lot of countries including US. I dont hate americans....i just dont like the government and its policies. I have a lot of american friends and I love the country, however I met my share of those arrogant americans who treat people like crap just coz they are brown or any other colour. But then again, every country has its ups and downs.

Bush and his administration should go into the history books as the worst government and the most destructive in the history of the world, beating even Hitler. And Bush also beats Hitler on the 'Funny looking Leader' top 10 list.

As an American, I love myself, but not because of my nationality, but because of my individuality. If someone can dislike me for my nationality let em. I dont care, I have plenty of friends from England. They didnt let my nationality get in the way even after the war and even though they didnt agree with it, nor I theirs. We dont discuss it because it would probably end up hurting our friendship, and its a lot more fun when you leave the politics out of drinking. I dont discriminate on anyone elses nationality, so I dont expect others will for me(and they havent to this point.) Its all about treating others how you want to be treated.

Everyone I personaly know is smart enough to seperate there dislike of the US government from there views about everyday Americans.
What do I think of everyday Americans ?
I dont have a problem with everyday Americans . I judge each American by there merits and morals just like I would any other person.

What do I think of the Bush admin ?
The Bush admin is one of the worst admins of the 2nd half the 20th Century. The other problem seems to be that the Dems dont present Americans with a genuine alternative but thats another topic.

The concept of the world hating Americans is an creation of the American right much like the idea that the media is Liberal.

[edit on 13-10-2006 by xpert11]

No, I love the US!
I just hate the all-pervasive corporate corruption of the government & society in America.

Oh, Gawd! I actually posted in PTS!
I'd better hit the DBS Decontamination Facilities, as fast as possible!


[edit on 13-10-2006 by MidnightDStroyer]