North Korean Air-Force.

Originally posted by InterestedBrit
The PAC-3, to my knowledge has yet to actually tested in a threat environment. Yes it may have been deployed and I do believe it has also taken part in a number of test engagements, but that does not make it combat tried and tested.

Well actually the PAC-3 was deployed in Operation Iraqi Freedom (2003) and was used with success against Iraqi TBM's.

Source
PAC-3 Record
OIF Evaluation (PDF)

Originally posted by InterestedBrit
I myself still find it hard to believe that its difficult to mistake a 200 knot aircraft in a dirty profile, to a mach 3 missile.

Maybe the links below will help you understand why the two FF incidents happened and how they relate to the larger picture.

Link (PDF)
Source

[edit on 12-10-2006 by WestPoint23]

That Scott Speicher Kill is more or less confirmed..
ACIG(independant) seems to think so:

The team of ACIG.org researchers obtained exclusive materials describing the interception of an USN F/A-18 Hornet aircraft by an IrAF MiG-25PD at exactly the time and in place where the plane flown by Lt.Cdr. Speicher was shot down, in the early morning of 17 January 1991. Considering the available evidence, we are now convinced that Lt.Cdr. Speicher was shot down by an Iraqi MiG-25 "Foxbat", using a single R-40/AA-6 Acrid missile - despite explanations by other IrAF pilots we interviewed previously, that none of them would know about any Iraqi pilot to have scored an air-to-air kill against Coalition aircraft during this war.
Source

dagebow- Have it your way. I'm not going to argue with you. If you wish to be small and split hairs about verbiage that's fine. For all intend an purpose it is unknown with a certainty that a MiG shot down the F/A 18. The word "probable" related to air kills has its roots in WW 2 when an enemy aircraft was fired upon but not seen to crash or the pilot bail out. Guys' scores had "probables" included. And after all the smpke cleared in the post-war years it came out that many of those "probables" and even "confirmed" kills made it home.

The fact is that no Iraqi has stepped forward and claimed the kill. Geez it's only recently been reconstructed that von Richtofen in 1918 was more than likely hit with ground fire which contributed or was exclusively responsible for his demise. Roy Brown is credited solely with the kill nevertheless.

For all we know Speicher ejected when his warning radar alerted him to an inbound missile and the Iraqi scored a kill over a pilotless plane.

The fact remains that The Iraqis, Iranians, North Koreans and any tin horn wannbe nations can't fight in the air worth a damn!

In 1953 the Korean War ended with 4 North Korean ace compared to 43 American aces. I know the Korean aces names. Until anyone can put a name and assign the kill to an Iraqi he's nobody in my book and the whole story is more urban myth than an account of air combat.

Originally posted by Cruizer
For all we know Speicher ejected when his warning radar alerted him to an inbound missile and the Iraqi scored a kill over a pilotless plane.

A kill against a pilotless plane is a kill allright, and by no means equivalent to downing a drone or a UAV.
The fact that the plane was shot down by an Air-to-air missile, confirms that it was an A2A kill irrespective of whether anyone claims it or not. They seem to have narrowed it down to the MiG-25PD as well:
Probably going through missile inventory and munitions log books; seeing how many AA-6 Acrid were on airborne a/c that day and how many were fired(loose weapon) on that day too. Finally Correlating that with IRAF a/c combat sortie paths the same day and overlapping all of this with the region in which Speicher went down.
It isn't too hard to narrow down (even maybe figure out) who/what shot Speicher down that day, irrespective of pilot confirmation.

The fact remains that The Iraqis, Iranians, North Koreans and any tin horn wannbe nations can't fight in the air worth a damn!

Maybe.. We would know for sure if those airforces flew the exact same cingurations available to USAF opponents, or at least with commonly perceived equivalent Russian configs..

In 1953 the Korean War ended with 4 North Korean ace compared to 43 American aces. I know the Korean aces names. Until anyone can put a name and assign the kill to an Iraqi he's nobody in my book and the whole story is more urban myth than an account of air combat.

Infact claiming kills is the easiest part when only witnesses are your wingmen, and no other forensic evidence is available for confirmation. When forensic data backs up
a kill, even the lack of a claim(or a name withheld which is the case with the Speicher incident) cannot undermine that it WAS a kill. Whether the kill was a total fluke, or a lucky shot or a plethora of other possibilities is irrelevant in terms of confirming the event as a A2A kill.
ACIG is not a shallow org IMHO.

If their reseachers think it to be a kill AND have withheld pilot information for the same, then they must have their reasons..

Date|| Unit|| Aircraft|| Aircrew|| Weapon|| Victim||
17Jan91|| 96FS|| MiG-25PDS|| witheld|| R-40RD|| V/A-18CAA400||

Country||
VFA-83/USN (note 6)||

.....


Note 6: The team of ACIG.org researchers obtained exclusive materials describing the interception of an USN F/A-18 Hornet aircraft by an IrAF MiG-25PD at exactly the time and in place where the plane flown by Lt.Cdr. Speicher was shot down, in the early morning of 17 January 1991. Considering the available evidence, we are now convinced that Lt.Cdr. Speicher was shot down by an Iraqi MiG-25 "Foxbat", using a single R-40/AA-6 Acrid missile - despite explanations by other IrAF pilots we interviewed previously, that none of them would know about any Iraqi pilot to have scored an air-to-air kill against Coalition aircraft during this war.

Source:ACIG

[edit on 13-10-2006 by Daedalus3]

Of more concern is their fleet of MD-500 helicopters for delivering DPRK special ops, painted in ROK markings.

Cruizer if ACIG state that a MIG-25 shot down the Hornet then i'll take it as a confirmed kill - if you wish to disbelieve them, fine.

It all boils down to the fact that one luck shot does not give you invincible air superiority. The US and GB have far superior training, organizational skills and logistics over anybody, anybody. Case closed until someone can convincingly prove different. It's just hair splitting for no good reason.

The main thrust was whether the NKAF is any good. I mention how the Iraqis stunk at air to air like everyone who has gone up against us and it becomes a dissection of one shadowy incident. In relative terms they sucked whether they got one or zero kills!! Does anyone disagree with that?

Not me..
They didn't have half the goodies the USAF had..Something as small as one AEW or AWACS can make a helluva difference..

I am fairly certain that among others. Speicher's squadron leader is on record as believing the Mig-25 shot him down.

As for North Korea - unlike Iraq, they're likely to attempt to engage our air assets in large numbers. I have little doubt we'll establish air superiority quickly, but not without losses.

But the real challenge with Norh Korea is not in the air but on the ground.
The trick will be destroying their artillery before it levels the area around Seoul - along with it's 22 million inhabitants.

I don't know what kind of a trick that is..
IMHO its a near impossible one.

Originally posted by xmotex
As for North Korea - unlike Iraq, they're likely to attempt to engage our air assets in large numbers. I have little doubt we'll establish air superiority quickly, but not without losses.

Attempt is the key word here, let them overcome the hurdle of getting in the air first then we’ll see, though I agree that we will establish air supremacy and that there will be loses but IMO negligible ones.

Originally posted Daedalus3
I don't know what kind of a trick that is..
IMHO its a near impossible one.

It's not impossible and a lot depends on different variables, there are both offensive (pre emptive) and defensive (defense and a quick counter attack) that can neutralize North Korea's artillery capably to a survivable level until it can be destroyed permanently. But unfortunately SK does not (yet) posses such capability.

[edit on 21-10-2006 by WestPoint23]