what if the mayans are right, but not the way we think they are?

i just had a thought: i read somewhere that long ago, the mayans prophecied that their ancestors would return to them through the seas, and that after the return, they would live happily for a while.

skepdic.com...

instead of living happily however, they were slaughtered, or forced to become slaves, their land pillaged, wealth plundered, and their people driven to the brink of extinction, with their entire civilization destroyed.

someone did come, but he brought them complete and utter ruin. so what about the whole 2012 thing? what if they're wrong about that too? what if, instead of being a time where the world is supposed to change for the better it changes for the absolute worst, like what happened to their civilization?

Originally posted by karby
[...]
their calendars predicted the coming of Cortez in 1519.


instead of living happily however, they were slaughtered, or forced to become slaves, their land pillaged, wealth plundered, and their people driven to the brink of extinction, with their entire civilization destroyed.

someone did come, but he brought them complete and utter ruin.

back then, Cortez brought to them there "sinners"; Christianity & missionaries


might you be suggesting, hinting, that this anticipated ascension into a higher
dimension;
could either be the 'rapture event'? .............................................as in good?
or perhaps the other side of the coin, the Armageddon event?......as in bad?

[edit on 9-10-2006 by St Udio]

back then, Cortez brought to them there "sinners"; Christianity & missionaries


might you be suggesting, hinting, that this anticipated ascension into a higher
dimension;
could either be the 'rapture event'? .............................................as in good?
or perhaps the other side of the coin, the Armageddon event?......as in bad?

what i'm saying is that back then everyone anticipated Cortez's coming as a happy time, but they were dead wrong. the whole 2012 thing is based on the mayan prophecy. everyone is saying that it's supposed to be a 'happy time', but what if we're wrong too?
what if the whole Cortez prophecy = 2012 prophecy, as far as they both predicting peace and good time after said event? then what?

Originally posted by karby


what i'm saying is that back then everyone anticipated Cortez's coming as a happy time, but they were dead wrong.
the whole 2012 thing is based on the mayan prophecy.
everyone is saying that it's supposed to be a 'happy time',




but what if we're wrong too?

then we are on the same page,
anyone can look at the coming of Cortez (as prophecied) ?[?a Quaziquatal??"]
as good, because Cortez & Spain brought Christianity to the Americas' peoples

so (in the spiritual sense) it was not a bad thing that the 'heathen' civilization
was destroyed, sacked, plundered, laid waste.
Now to the indigenous Aztecs, the conquistadores were pretty much god-like
with their appearance, manner, behaviors, and the native peoples accepted their fate at the hands of the Spanish conquistadors.

it is only from this side and distance of history that the genocide and pillage & wanton plunder of the conquistadors could be viewed as a 'bad' thing
...after all
didn't cortez & his men confiscate all the gold & treasure for the treasury of the Church & the glory of their G0d?? & isn't that a 'good' thing??


so, the prophetic anticipation of something GOOD to happen in 2012 is still the rule.

after all, it might just be: "We Just Don't Know Whats GOOD For Us" after all !!!

Originally posted by St Udio

then we are on the same page,
anyone can look at the coming of Cortez (as prophecied) ?[?a Quaziquatal??"]
as good, because Cortez & Spain brought Christianity to the Americas' peoples

so (in the spiritual sense) it was not a bad thing that the 'heathen' civilization
was destroyed, sacked, plundered, laid waste.
Now to the indigenous Aztecs, the conquistadores were pretty much god-like
with their appearance, manner, behaviors, and the native peoples accepted their fate at the hands of the Spanish conquistadors.

it is only from this side and distance of history that the genocide and pillage & wanton plunder of the conquistadors could be viewed as a 'bad' thing
...after all
didn't cortez & his men confiscate all the gold & treasure for the treasury of the Church & the glory of their G0d?? & isn't that a 'good' thing??


so, the prophetic anticipation of something GOOD to happen in 2012 is still the rule.

after all, it might just be: "We Just Don't Know Whats GOOD For Us" after all !!!

please excuse me if i seem quite disgusted with your answer.
rationalizing genocide is not a good thing, no matter how well you try to put it. if anything i can pretty much do the same thing with the current world situation in saying that muslim fanatics have every right to do what they're doing, simply because it's for the sake of their 'god'. isn't that a good thing?
nothing 'good' came of Cortez's interaction with the Mayans.

Originally posted by karby

nothing 'good' came of Cortez's interaction with the Mayans.

that's what they'd like you to believe,

i'm going to wikipedia, i'm pretty sure that the indigenous peoples in the americas at that moment in history, when Cortez landed & 'invaded', were practicing human sacrifice...(for the good of the crops) and the bringing of rain & maize


i'm also gonna see if the Aztecs & Maya were cousins
& went by the same calendar(s) or shared the same prophetic warnings


see ya

i don't follow any one belief.
and i don't believe in the Christian god, as it exists in today's society.
so yes, to me, doing anything of that nature "in the name of god", is deplorable. the same excuse has been used throughout history too many times, and this is no different.
but i digress. too much actually.

going back to my original point, what happens if the Mayan prophecy turns out to be the exact opposite of what is expected?

No - it is the end of the present age, for sure - but that can't be a bad thing anyway you look at it....

the end of self-deception, greed, self-orientation, religion, and war!

Peace will return (peace we do not recall but it will become familiar soon enough!)

The age of the lily.

Originally posted by queenannie38
No - it is the end of the present age, for sure - but that can't be a bad thing anyway you look at it....

the end of self-deception, greed, self-orientation, religion, and war!

Peace will return (peace we do not recall but it will become familiar soon enough!)

The age of the lily.

Queenie,while I tend to think the approach of 2012 is something to look forward to,here lately, the thought has crossed my mind that maybe 2012 brings the age of the anti-Christ rather than an age of peace. I am not saying that I necessarily believe that is what will happen,but what if it does?

[edit on 12-10-2006 by SpeakerofTruth]

Originally posted by karby
going back to my original point, what happens if the Mayan prophecy turns out to be the exact opposite of what is expected?

Honestly, I think my opinion on this would be, wait six years and find out. Geologically speaking, it's a drop in the ocean for the amount of time you'd have to wait. But, ok, let me turn the question around to you? What DOES happen?

If the Maori Elders that speak of Ancient Maya prophecy actually comes to bear, it intimates that either good OR bad can come of that time. Those that are prepared spiritually will pass beyond the veil to a plane of higher existence. Those that aren't will suffer to repeat their fate until which time they are spiritually prepared.

Either way, if (again) they are accurate on the time AND some major will inevitably take place, then whats the point of questioning what happens? If it's only to put your mind at ease, im sure thats understandable and their advice would be, be spiritually prepared. If it's only because you would want to know, then as I mentioned earlier, just wait and find out.


AB1

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
Queenie,while I tend to think the approach of 2012 is something to look forward to,here lately, the thought has crossed my mind that maybe 2012 brings the age of the anti-Christ rather than an age of peace.

I guess it is really hard for any of us to finally accept some good news - after all this world has been ruse after trick after disappointment after let-down, generally speaking.

And it seems almost foolhardy these days to think that something good might actually happen (and then our subconscious, unbidden, accuses us as 'blasphemer' for some unknown and dumb reason) LOL

But no - that is when the resurrection takes place - and it is no coincidence that Chanukah is celebrated the 9th through the 16th! The Festival of Lights! For all souls in this world will be filled with light! Can you imagine?

Way better than the christmas coca-cola commercial, huh?

I am not saying that I necessarily believe that is what will happen,but what if it does?

I understand your trepidation, as I said....but I tell you, of a truth, that it won't.

I KNOW this and this is something I am going to have to get used to saying to people - even though it is socially unacceptable and while the attitude of the people is one of yearning for such news - when it is delivered it will be scorned, scoffed at, and derided. So be it. It's not about me - my life hasn't been about me for almost 9 years - but it's the best 9 years out of 38!

How do I know? How can I know? Believe it or not - I've got all my tokens on the 'nots' for the next few months - God has made it known to me - with certainty and precision - in signs and wonders and all completely and perfectly supported by the scripture!

Why me? If I knew, I'd say - I still marvel over His goodness every day and pinch myself - I am no one....never have been - and then He humbled me for a good 3 1/2 years or so - I mean really brought me down to the bottom of the bottom....I always loved and sought Him in silence and the privacy of my soul - but I was a proud girl, all the same - the daughter of my father without a doubt and a hard one to handle even if Samson came along. I am not exaggerating. I had a temper that scared me so bad I never let it go - later on I realized it was probably rightly described as a murderous temper.

All gone now, though - I could fill up volumes of praise for Him and the miracle I have experienced - which is the miracle I am to demonstrate now, for the world.

EGAD. Did I say that. Yes.

This week was the Feast of Tabernacles - today is the last day. Many people look for this week in hopes of end-time fulfillments.

And as astounding and beyond description as His works have proven to be - it is not something of lights, crowds, and fanfare - just as the life of my brother Yehoshua was 2000 years ago....we all know the name now, even if we do not esteem it (some of us, not me of course) but back then - he wasn't anyone of note - truly only those who basked in his light knew his glory - but while God's true workings are not flashy (except in the telling) they are something that is even better:
Sure, tried, proven, solid, and true.
Above all, everlasting.

This week, at midnight when the 7th became the 8th, mankind was released from bondage - I have some physical proof but right now I must take care to show it privately and in discretion. All this year, dates on the Hebrew calendar and the Gregorian calendar have aligned in a way previously unmatched - synchronicity is an understatement. And there have been the signs in the heavens, starting in 2004 - but because of the stigma of christianity toward 'astrology' no one but me was probably looking out for them to see them. It is one thing to worship a planet or star as if it is a god - no different that worshipping any other physical thing made by God and in God as a god (idolatry) and yet another thing, altogether, to be attentively watching the workings of the cosmos for the signs which were given.

After all - what else (as far as time markers) CAN NOT be altered by man? What is totally untouchable and therefore guaranteed to remain pure? That which He set for times, and for seasons, and for days and for years....

The antichrist came in two manifestations but with a similar name - before the Savior was born for the Jews and after he died for the christians.

Antiochus Epiphanes - and also christianity born at Antioch. The last being the strong delusion that has served as the gentile antichrist for nearly 3000 years!

ALL these things I can show and prove....but I won't derail this thread.

I don't expect anyone to believe me - someone will, perhaps, along the way - my family does - and being witness to God doing these things with me actually converted one of my loved ones - who was baptized and now fully trusts in a God he's never seen (and didn't even talk about when we met)....

More than anything, though, I expect to be despised by those who consider God something exclusive - and especially those who think my teachings are vain imagings since I REFUSE to call myself a 'christian' yet extol Christ and teach the commandments of God as God has given me to do....

And you know what? That's great! They can do and say whatever they want - nothing changes God's plan and nothing could make me change my course or despair - I am happy just in this that I have been granted...and my only wish is to share this joy because it is the consummation of the ages.

In fact - the age of Pisces started on September 15, 107 BC and the actual duration is exactly 2100 solar years....that was Rosh Hashanah that year and this year it was September 22....Yehoshua was born on Tishri 15 - which this year was the 7th of October. And it was the year of Jubilee and the year of release. And the age of Aquarius began September 22 of this year. Both were marked by solar eclipses.

And in the book of Jeremiah it says 'That year the false prophet Hananiah died, in the seventh month (Tishri)...' Deception. It's gone. It will begin to show, but it will come to our knowledge gradually - but it WILL be known!

And so 6 more years (from one sabbath to the next all flesh will come to worship before the Lord) I think is in Isaiah or maybe Zechariah.

Anyway.

I'm rambling.

God's blessings are upon all of us this day! Read Deuteronomy 33 and 34 and also 1 Kings chapter 8 and Psalms 30.

How do I know? How can I know? Believe it or not - I've got all my tokens on the 'nots' for the next few months - God has made it known to me - with certainty and precision - in signs and wonders and all completely and perfectly supported by the scripture!

God has shown me many things as well,and from most accounts has much more to show me. However,I make no claims of being special, certainly no more special than the next person.

I would imagine that the photon belt would explain the increase of energy surrounding the sphere of earth. I think that most likely this energy will reach its peak somewhere between 2010 and 2012.

[edit on 12-10-2006 by SpeakerofTruth]

Originally posted by alphabetaone

Originally posted by karby
going back to my original point, what happens if the Mayan prophecy turns out to be the exact opposite of what is expected?

Honestly, I think my opinion on this would be, wait six years and find out. Geologically speaking, it's a drop in the ocean for the amount of time you'd have to wait.

ok, fair enough. i agree.

But, ok, let me turn the question around to you? What DOES happen?

well, to be honest...i don't know. but based on everything i've read so far, that particular time is supposed to be a time of great change, a world wide disruption, if you will. the way the mayan calendar is currently interpreted--if it was just this alone, i wouldn't bother with it. but so far i've come across at least two other culture sources that point to tis time period as well.

If the Maori Elders that speak of Ancient Maya prophecy actually comes to bear, it intimates that either good OR bad can come of that time. Those that are prepared spiritually will pass beyond the veil to a plane of higher existence. Those that aren't will suffer to repeat their fate until which time they are spiritually prepared.

Either way, if (again) they are accurate on the time AND some major will inevitably take place, then whats the point of questioning what happens? If it's only to put your mind at ease, im sure thats understandable and their advice would be, be spiritually prepared. If it's only because you would want to know, then as I mentioned earlier, just wait and find out.

i understand what you're saying. i question it because i've seen and read so many other perceptions and opinions on this. and so far, a vast majority of these other views speak of some abrupt point of enlightnment...as though humankind will suddenly stop being so selfish and suddenly just wake up to the light. these other perspectives won't even acknowledge that human evil exists. i don't know why it bothers me so much, but it does..

Originally posted by karby

i understand what you're saying. i question it because i've seen and read so many other perceptions and opinions on this. and so far, a vast majority of these other views speak of some abrupt point of enlightnment...as though humankind will suddenly stop being so selfish and suddenly just wake up to the light. these other perspectives won't even acknowledge that human evil exists. i don't know why it bothers me so much, but it does..

That's certainly easy to understand Karby

Like any written or spoken word, the meanings and language of it get diluted over time, especially when other have an agenda to twist its meaning to suit their needs. Either that or just sheer misinterpretation. I'm going to quote some text as defined by a Maori Elder on the reunification of 'Rangi' (sky) and 'Papa' (earth):


"This one basically flows on from a Maori Creation Legend. Anyway, in short, Rangi (the Sky) and Papa (the Earth) were partners and were closely clasped together...they had a number of children, who lived in between these two parents, squashed and without light. One day these children (who were all Gods by the way - God of the Wind, God of the Sea, God of War etc etc) decided to push their parents apart so they could have room to move...they all tried and failed, till one of the Gods, Tane, pushed them apart, separated them, and hello - there was light.

Basically the other more secretive legend that follows on from this says that there will come a time when the children of Tane (that's you and me) are so busy, so distracted with fighting, with greed, with lust etc, so separated from our original parents (Rangi and Papa - so that kinda means we have lost our links with the natural order of things) that Rangi and Papa will take that opportunity - while no one is looking - to quickly come back together...destroying everything in the process. There has been much meditation done on this event and yep...2012 seems to be the year the old people are coming up with.

I have asked a few of the 'kaumatua' (tribal elders) what they see happening in 2012. One said "Ka hinga te arai"...the rest nodded and agreed. Okay, I'll explain what that means...

hinga = to fall arai = curtain

those are the modern interpretations of those two words in what he said to me...so basically he said "The curtain will fall". Okay - I thought about that for a while, thinking about what he meant...and I originally deduced he meant like "Final curtain" end of the world sorta thing. That was until I did a bit more digging into the origins of those two words. Ya see...modern Maori is just like modern English...it changes over time, the means of words alter and get reinterpreted as time goes by.

This kaumatua (elder) is an 'old school' Maori...knowledgeable in the ancient ways, the old ways, the old original language...or 'tuturu Maori' as it is called, which basically means 'original Maori. So anyway, in original Maori, those two words (hinga and arai) mean slightly different things.

hinga = to dissolve/to be removed/ to fade
arai = veil / thin separation

'arai' is the main word there to look at. Okay, when people die, Maori say they have gone 'ki muri i te arai'...they have gone 'behind the veil'...passed over so to speak. So in that sense, 'arai' actually means like a 'separator' between the physical world/plane and the spiritual world/plane.

So - 'ka hinga te arai' in old Maori means (as closely at it can interpreted in English) The removal/dissolving of the planes separator...basically the MERGING of the physical and spiritual planes."


Perhaps this may shed a bit of light for you on the technical meaning of the year 2012 to ancient Mayan culture.


AB1

I thought the Mayans and the Aztecs were different peoples with different calendars? To my knowledge the Mayan civilisation had already gone by the time Cortez reached and conquered the Aztecs.

Could you please provide a link showing the Aztecs were using the Mayan calendar as their own?

they are different peoples, but the Mayans were around when Cortez arrived. Mayan civilization was in decline when Cortez arrived, thanks to the Aztecs. the present day decendants of the maya live in highland areas, like mountains. these people still have many pieces of their ancient culture still intact.
/yezjok
en.wikipedia.org...

Why did the ancient Mayan or pre-Maya choose December 21st, 2012 A.D., as the end of their Long Count calendar? This article will cover some recent research. Scholars have known for decades that the 13-baktun cycle of the Mayan "Long Count" system of timekeeping was set to end precisely on a winter solstice, and that this system was put in place some 2300 years ago. This amazing fact - that ancient Mesoameri- can skywatchers were able to pinpoint a winter solstice far off into the future - has not been dealt with by Mayanists. And why did they choose the year 2012? One immediately gets the impression that there is a very strange mystery to be confronted here. I will be building upon a clue to this mystery reported by epigrapher Linda Schele in Maya Cosmos (1994).

Maya Calendar

One does get the impression that something strange will take place at this time. I have narrowed it down to one of two things, either there will be a time shift or a dimensional shift. If it is a time shift, then likely there will be no perceptible change. However, if there happens to be a dimensional shift, things are about to get weird.

In order to understand the maya calendar, one has to understand the principle of the long count system:

Number of Days / Term
1 / Kin (day)

20 / Uinal

360 / Tun

7200 / Katun

144000 / Baktun

As one can see, it is figured by multiplying by twenty. Each Baktun has 144000 days. Notice 144000. How many are assigned to rule the coming kingdom? 144000

So, what is so important about December 21,2012? Well, here is what John Major Jenkins has to say about the date:

This would be an important date. In the pre-dawn skies of this date, the Milky Way would be seen to arch overhead from the region of Polaris (Heart of Sky) and would point right at where the sun rises. This (and the corollary date 6 months later) is the only date when the Sun/Lord could jump from the ecliptic track and travel the Milky Way up and around the vault of heaven to the region of Polaris, there to enter the "Heart of Sky."

Maya

let me guess with all that is going on. myan calender, 2012. i think it starts like this. in the year 2007, global uprising leading to war around august. 2007-2010 war lasts till uncurable sickness kills one third of the planet in 2010-2011. in 2012 earth gets hit by a huge rock from the sky changing the planets atmosphere that whole year. 2013 the change in mankind as we know it. now thats really out there.

Originally posted by St Udio

Originally posted by karby
nothing 'good' came of Cortez's interaction with the Mayans.

that's what they'd like you to believe,
i'm going to wikipedia, i'm pretty sure that the indigenous peoples in the americas at that moment in history, when Cortez landed & 'invaded', were practicing human sacrifice...(for the good of the crops) and the bringing of rain & maize
i'm also gonna see if the Aztecs & Maya were cousins
& went by the same calendar(s) or shared the same prophetic warnings
see ya

Well, it may be the case that 'something' good came of it... but that would be the exception. St. Udio, you are going to look into the Aztecs and Mayans? Good idea. When you do, take a peek at the historical record of what the Conquistadors did over the next few decades after their arrival, in particular their meeting with the Aztec ruler. The Aztecs welcomed them into their capitol city and even into the rulers own residence. Just out of curiosity, do you know the rest of the story? Well, it involves kidnap, ransom, treachery, and murder. Check it out. As for the references to human sacrifice, you are right, it did go on. But compared to the genocidal actions of the Americas newcomers towards their hosts, it is pretty minor. In Mayan culture, it was actually an honor to be sacrificed, and only the most worthy citizens were considered for it. The Aztecs were another story. But, nonetheless, even their sacrifices did not result in their total annihilation. There total destruction was the result of some far worse activities, by the very people they welcomed. You might enjoy reading up on the details of the genocide of all the indigenous people of the Americas, it is a real eye opener. Thanksgiving remembers how the host people saved the newbies from starvation one winter, and how do you thing their guests repaid their charity? I'll let you look into it and find out for yourself. Virtually nothing good might be more technically correct, but for all intents and purposes, karby is on the money.

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth

Originally posted by queenannie38
No - it is the end of the present age, for sure - but that can't be a bad thing anyway you look at it....

the end of self-deception, greed, self-orientation, religion, and war!

Peace will return (peace we do not recall but it will become familiar soon enough!)

The age of the lily.

Queenie,while I tend to think the approach of 2012 is something to look forward to,here lately, the thought has crossed my mind that maybe 2012 brings the age of the anti-Christ rather than an age of peace. I am not saying that I necessarily believe that is what will happen,but what if it does?

[edit on 12-10-2006 by SpeakerofTruth]

I feel you are both right, an age of peace is coming. Right now there is no room for it though and a very thorough house cleaning is needed first. We must 'wipe the slate clean' as my Hindu friend described the end of the Kali Yuga. You can't make an omelette without breaking some eggs. So, the anti christ might just be the cleaning service, who come in and scour the place clean in preparation of the new age? I don't know.