Bush responsible For the North Korean Mess!! Read on!

I still blame the present administration for the failed policies against NK and they been able to become such a problem.

Bush never considered NK to be part of his political campaign when he was running for president in 2000 . . . NK was not off importance at that time.

After 9/11 Bush made NK part of the axis of evil but just like his dealings with other nations that he has made axis of evil his foreign policies are part of the problem.

You can not expect nations to agree with your policies while ignoring their leaders and choosing who's countries leaders deserve attention who's not.

Yes I blame Bush policies and priorities for the mess in NK.

Originally posted by mikesingh
Well, I've been studying this since a number of years culling various intell reports and having some 'insider knowledge' that I cannot divulge.

But here's something for starters....

Last June, four months before the current crisis over North Korea became public, the Central Intelligence Agency delivered a comprehensive analysis of North Korea's nuclear ambitions to President Bush and his top advisers.

The document, known as a National Intelligence Estimate, was classified as Top Secret S.C.I. (for "sensitive compartmented information"), and its distribution within the government was tightly restricted. The C.I.A. report made the case that North Korea had been violating international law—and agreements with South Korea and the United States—by secretly obtaining the means to produce weapons-grade uranium.

The document's most politically sensitive information, however, was about Pakistan. Since 1997, the C.I.A. said, Pakistan had been sharing sophisticated technology, warhead-design information, and weapons-testing data with the Pyongyang regime. Pakistan, one of the Bush Administration's important allies in the war against terrorism, was helping North Korea build the bomb.

Here..

Want more? But the links would run into pages!!

[edit on 9-10-2006 by mikesingh]

\

Knowing about it and being responsible for it are two different issues. Our ally supplied them nuclear parts ... we didn't ask our ally to do it.

Using this logic if I sell my friend a car and two years later he's driving drunk and kills someone then it's my fault. He is my friend after all and he was driving my old vehicle which he bought. I should've known what he was going to do and I must've set this all up. Uhhh ... okay.

Originally posted by DickBinBush

I hope by recently you mean last 3 years...

Originally posted by marg6043
I still blame the present administration for the failed policies against NK and they been able to become such a problem.

original post:

Bush responsible For the North Korean Mess!!

Who would i blame in america? the president and his administration?

no, no, no.

i will blame all those who voted for bush. i will blame all those who did not vote against bush. i will blame all those who could not produce another candidate that could beat bush, a man who can not even speak for himself, let alone another.

do i blame bush?

nope. i blame everyone else.

besides, who dictates policy? politics?

P O L I T I C S?

POLL = a census of popular opinion.
IT = it
I = i
C = See
S = plurals

conclusion of who dictates policies = i see plural census of popular opinions are it.

but who puts a dent in the policies from outside the administration?

Press i dent

president.

Bush never considered NK to be part of his political campaign when he was running for president in 2000 . . . NK was not off importance at that time.

wasn't on the public's mind either, they were not concerned about it, and neither were the polls, nor was the press.

Yes I blame Bush policies and priorities for the mess in NK.

i blame the ignorance of humanity who were too consumed with their selves and their "Self before Service", aka "self pre-serve" who up until this moment could not have cared less.

north korea has the nuclear bomb why?

people were selfish.

Perhaps this isnt exactly thread related.. but.. does this have to be nothing but a debate, what part of debating back and forth, calling each other names and ranting is denying ignorance?
Much Love
Klaws

Lets be honest here guys, short of bombing the place.. what can we do to stop them ?

If we do anything physical to the country, they will march over that DMZ and into southkorea. and we will be back in that war that claimed thousands, for no apparent reason..
a war we couldnt even FINISH.. we had to put it on pause.

The last thing anyone has wanted to do since the 50's, was give kim a reason to restart his war machine.

So nkorea has nukes.. boo F'n hoo.
If all they do is test one underground, then sit back gloating.. well good for them. There scientists achieved something that isnt easily achievable.

Now if they start building up forces on the dmz, and u see a hell of a lot of action around silo's.. then yeah.. the situation has become unstable.

But at the moment, hes like a kid with his cap gun that mommy would never allow.
He can use it, knowing she frowning, but as soon as he shoots the cat.. or does something stupd.. a spanking is a coming his way.

Nkorea is already sanction to its eye balls, these coming sanctions are going to make the western world look weak, and fair enough because we are.
What was that threat last week
'' either have nuclear weapons, or a future ''

I bet the bush admin are kicking them selves...Obviously, they never expected them to test a nuke.. succesfully.

AND plus..

You really think the brave and fearless american president, with all his people skills and intellegence debating and negotiating with lil kimmy would be a good thing?

Hell, If I was a country, and that man came over chatning he was the leader and ordering me to stop.. Id be laughing all the way to that big red button..

Thank your lucky stars bush is to gutless to travel and negotiate.

I'm a new member here but I would like to add my $.02. Since when did this become something that the US has to deal with exculsivly? This is a world issue no? So instead of the US taking it upon themselves to rectify this situation why doesn't another country step up? If this is indeed a global threat then the "globe" needs to deal with it, not just the US.

I'm not a democrat or a republican, I vote for whom I feel the best candidate for the job is, with that being said I am not a Bush supporter, but at the same time, I don't blame the current administration for the NK failure. NK is much like the boy who cried wolf, they keep making threats, they never follow through, why would anyone have thought any differently this time? Furthermore, I'd like to play the devils advocate. How come Russia, China, France, Pakistan, et al can have nukes but NK can't, afterall they do deserve the right to be able to defend themselves, especially against an administration like this one.

Clinton may have not been the greatest president but at least he paid them off to stop doing what they were doing, I mean with the $750b+ spent in Iraq it's not like we couldn't have afforded to keep them under wraps.

The last question I have is if the US doesn't negotiate with terrorists or the "axis of evil", did we just not play a large part in negotiating a cease-fire between Hezbollah and Isreal, I'm pretty sure they fall into one of the two above categories.

[edit on 9-10-2006 by BluByWho]

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher

i blame the ignorance of humanity who were too consumed with their selves and their "Self before Service", aka "self pre-serve" who up until this moment could not have cared less.

north korea has the nuclear bomb why?

people were selfish.

Exactly the point, you get my 2nd ever WATS award.
We are so caught up in our own conscious egotistical existence that we no longer care who runs our respective countries as long as we've got our dvd's & on demand television.
With regards to the information supplied it does appear to be Pakistan who are the most implicated in the supply of the arms, but the inflammation of the tensions have certainly been escalated by the u.s government's policies during both the Clinton & Bush presidencies.
I do find that Bush is made out to be an idiot but in my opinion playing the fool is a great tool to have, he's smarter than he wants you to believe.
People then believe that the man is too simple to be complicit in any complicated scenarios, very much the wolf in sheep's clothing.

You can try and blame Bush, yet you could also blame Pakistan as well and let us not forget the other administrations that also furnish NK with nuclear technology. What about them?


No, no one gives a darn about them that would upset their lets blame Bush Apple cart wouldn't it. Truly such a shame that people do not check all the facts first :shk:

Well said Agit8dChop, totally agree dont understand what the fuss is all about. Whats most disturbing is how people will use any excuse or reason to wage war against there fellow humans without knowing all the facts. People like that live in a permanent state of fear and paranoia and believe everyone is out to get them. Not healthy for anyone....

As for those people who defend the Bush Administration. Do I need to remind you that he lied and deceivied everyone in regards to Iraq and probably more. You people dont have a leg to stand on when it comes to the truth because the President you defend couldn't speak the truth if his life depended on it. How can anyone who claims to be a intelligent, morally, honest human being trust or even have respect for someone like that is beyond me.

Human stupidity and ignorance increases exponentially to Human intelligence.....

You Reap What You Sow........Peace!!!!!!!!

This is a brilliant move on North Korea's part.

1.) I don't think the world was really taking them seriously. We were more focused on the Middle East and I think a lot of people just saw North Korea as a bully trying to stir up trouble.

2.) NK showed us that they will do what they want, regardless of threats from the rest of the world (well really solidified it).

3.) They've got the rest of the world in checkmate right now. I don't think the UN was expecting NK to call their bluff. Now they are scrambling to find solutions. This makes the UN very weak in North Korea's eyes.

Originally posted by Fireshot
They've got the rest of the world in checkmate right now. I don't think the UN was expecting NK to call their bluff. Now they are scrambling to find solutions. This makes the UN very weak in North Korea's eyes.

Perhaps this was done by NK to draw attention away from the Iran situation? To give Iran an opprotunity to develop their own nuclear technology, or maybe to test the US/UN response to a nuke being tested. Afterall we keep threatening Iran with sanctions if they don't stop enrichment, yet we have another country blowing up the very same bombs we fear Iran seeks, seems like flawed logic to me, or a hidden agenda (cough:cough:OIL....)

Originally posted by BluByWho

Originally posted by Fireshot
They've got the rest of the world in checkmate right now. I don't think the UN was expecting NK to call their bluff. Now they are scrambling to find solutions. This makes the UN very weak in North Korea's eyes.

Perhaps this was done by NK to draw attention away from the Iran situation? To give Iran an opprotunity to develop their own nuclear technology, or maybe to test the US/UN response to a nuke being tested. Afterall we keep threatening Iran with sanctions if they don't stop enrichment, yet we have another country blowing up the very same bombs we fear Iran seeks, seems like flawed logic to me, or a hidden agenda (cough:cough:OIL....)

True, maybe I should have said that the UN/US was HOPING that NK wouldn't call their bluff.

Is two factors to consider here, NK doesn't need nuclear weapons, NK is a poor country they do not really have any enemies that want to take over their resources.

It was no need for any of the world leaders supper powers including US to allow NK to develop any nuclear programs.

Failed talks and denial has taken the situation where is right now.

NK instability will be more dangerous than Iran will ever be, after all Iran does have resources that can make the Iranian country a target to corporate greed just like Iraq.

I say bomb the nuclear facilities in NK and then send enough aid to help with the regime fall out.

They will recover but the regime will not.

This is taken from the very same source that you use as your "claim" that Bush is responsible.

In 1985, North Korea signed the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty, which led to the opening of most of its nuclear sites to international inspection. By the early nineteen-nineties, it became evident to American intelligence agencies and international inspectors that the North Koreans were reprocessing more spent fuel than they had declared, and might have separated enough plutonium, a reactor by-product, to fabricate one or two nuclear weapons. The resulting diplomatic crisis was resolved when North Korea's leader, Kim Jong Il, entered into an agreement with the Clinton Administration to stop the nuclear-weapons program in return for economic aid and the construction of two light-water nuclear reactors that, under safeguards, would generate electricity.

Within three years, however, North Korea had begun using a second method to acquire fissile material. This time, instead of using spent fuel, scientists were trying to produce weapons-grade uranium from natural uranium—with Pakistani technology. One American intelligence official, referring to the C.I.A. report, told me, "It points a clear finger at the Pakistanis. The technical stuff is crystal clear—not hedged and not ambivalent." Referring to North Korea's plutonium project in the early nineteen-nineties, he said, "Before, they were sneaking." Now "it's off the wall. We know they can do a lot more and a lot more quickly."

A Japanese diplomat who has been closely involved in Korean affairs defended the Bush Administration's delay in publicly dealing with the crisis. Referring to the report, he said, "If the intelligence assessment was correct, you have to think of the implications. Disclosure of information is not always instant. You need some time to assess the content." He added, "To have a dialogue, you really have to find the right time and the right conditions. So far, President Bush has done the right thing, from our perspective." (The White House and the C.I.A. did not respond to requests for comment.)

Here

Ok, so the Clinton Administration made an agreement with Kim Jong Il that he would stop their nuclear weapons program in return for economic aid and the construction of two light-water nuclear reactors

I don't see how Bush and his administration can be held 100% responsible. Will I say that he maybe could have handled the diplomatic process better? I'm sure he could have, but as you can see in the past, any agreements with North Korea are worthless and are only worked to benefit North Korea.

from the same atricle:

One American intelligence official who has attended recent White House meetings cautioned against relying on the day-to-day Administration statements that emphasize a quick settlement of the dispute. The public talk of compromise is being matched by much private talk of high-level vindication. "Bush and Cheney want that guy's head"—Kim Jong Il's—"on a platter. Don't be distracted by all this talk about negotiations. There will be negotiations, but they have a plan, and they are going to get this guy after Iraq. He's their version of Hitler."

How in the world is this anybody's fault?
Other then the leader of NK ?
You can say if so and so did this or that, duh!
If my grandfather bought IBM stock way back when...
There is a crazy man in charge of NK, if you doubt this research it.
This isn't about Bush, nor about anti-American, nor religion.
It's about a insecure insane man, that cares not about his people, only his glory.
It's this damned simple, it's NK fault.

Originally posted by shots
You can try and blame Bush, yet you could also blame Pakistan as well and let us not forget the other administrations that also furnish NK with nuclear technology. What about them?


No, no one gives a darn about them that would upset their lets blame Bush Apple cart wouldn't it. Truly such a shame that people do not check all the facts first :shk:

They have to blame somebody because now they see, plain as day, that bush was right about the "axis of evil" and hell, lets face it, so many of them have spent so much time preaching how wrong bush was they have a big holoe blown in their arguement.

I do find basis to be angry at bush as well however. He placed energy resources above ACTUAL threat capability.

I hate Bush for removing Saddam. I think his policies are self-destructive to too many of their aims.
But I don't blame him what North Korea is doing, I blame Kim Jim, Pakistan. I also blame China and South Korea for well intentionally, yet unwisely supporting the North Korean economy. Far better for everyone if the wretched place would just collapse.
Blaming Bush for something like this actually makes me feel sorry for him. I mean he's the last person who would help a communist (unless of course it was really, really necessary) (and even the questions remain).
That said I got to give you: It was interesting to know that the equipment delivering nuclear stuff from Pakistan was American.

Sometimes I think America should secretly manufacture its equipment for export with satellite armed exploding devices!!!

I am amazed at some ATS'ers lack of historical perspective. Some have to think that history started when Bush was elected in 2000. Sorry, but that is not the case.

North Korea is a monster that grew with appeasement and aid from the Clinton administration. Clinton actually sent in the 1 President that was worse than himself to "negotiate" with North Korea's dictator. The worst President ever was Jimmy Carter. I am glad our President now doesn't negotiate with terrorists or tinpot dictators like Clinton did.

www.newsmax.com...

During the early Clinton years, hard-liners and so-called conservative hawks advocated a pre-emptive strike to halt North Korea's nuclear weapons development before it could field an atomic bomb. Instead of taking the hard line, President Clinton elected to rely on former President Jimmy Carter and decided to appease the Marxist-Stalinist dictatorship.

The Clinton appeasement program for North Korea included hundreds of millions of dollars in aid, food, oil and even a nuclear reactor. However, the agreement was flawed and lacked even the most informal means of verification.

In return, Kim elected to starve his people while using the American aid to build uranium bombs. The lowest estimate is that Kim starved to death over 1 million of his own people, even with the U.S. aid program.

Why Clinton gets a pass on his miserable 8 years is beyond me?

Originally posted by SmallMindsBigIdeas

Knowing about it and being responsible for it are two different issues. Our ally supplied them nuclear parts ... we didn't ask our ally to do it.

Sorry, I don't agree with you here.

The bottom line is, that the Pakistanis could have been easily pressurised by the Bush Administration to stop aiding North Korea's nuclear ambitions. But they chose not to. Why?

If the Bush Administration could force the Pakistanis to abandon the Taliban which they had 'invented', or else be 'bombed back to the stone age', why could they not be similarly threatened where providing nuke know how to NK was concerned?

So let's not be poodle-faking the issue. The fact is that the US Administration could have stopped the Pakis, but did not. Period.