Where have all the possibilities gone??

(Note to other readers, the posts in this thread are very long and include long passages of quotes and comments. If you haven't got the time to read the entirety, I suggest you wait until you do. Edited by regs.)

This is sort of a rant.

Besides the Religion of "Criticism," what ideas stand up anymore? Let's use our extensive knowledge of criticism to take a bunch of beliefs apart:

Multi-god faiths: If one God/god is not apparent, how can many gods be? Where are all of these gods? How low on the food chain are we? Are we just slaves?

Taoism: Hard/soft, Long/short, Strong/weak, these are a few of my favorite things (sings). Anyway, I really liked Taoism until it started getting annoying. Why? Because good and evil are supposed to peacefully coexist, but they don't. Yin and Yang are like a mixture of gasoline and fire. The more you understand, the less you believe it. Yes, Lau Tzu was a smart guy, but I don't think anyone has any idea what the hell he really wanted to say.

Aethism: These guys don't have the will to have an imagination, or faith, or belief in really complex things. A *cough* "faith" *cough* based on 'not believing'.... which is odd in itself. Seems one dimensional in a 3+ dimensional world.

Agnosticism: They don't even try.

Christianity: Where's the Ark? Where's Noah's Arc? Where's God? Where's Jesus? Where did all the "good" people go? So is fulfilling 7 out of ten commandments still good? Human nature is a funny thing, but God created it, so sin must be something He gave me? That doesn't make sense and Christians don't believe that, but where else would it come from if all things were created by God? Where is God when I need Him and where is He when you need Him? Really? Need I say more?

Criticism Maniacs: They even piss themselves off. Who likes a critic? Well, no one, unless you are against something. A lot of critics just seem to be afraid to believe in anything, anyway.

Ok, lets do a short wrap up of this "not so nice" criticism of religions.

What is wrong with humanity?
Where is God/god/gods during all of this 'bs' we are going through?
What is our purpose?
... if we have none, then why exist?
Is Evil just as important and good for life as "Goodness?"

Of course, no one can really answer any of these questions, but that is the point... to ask them... and apparently get no real answers without having to defend ourselves (with knowledge that only "we, ourselves" understand through ourselves... or a church that can't really give us proof).

I'm about ready to give up myself.
The old saying, "Everything you know is wrong," is the only thing I seem to know is 'right'... which is a contradiction in itself.
I think I'll send out a big *insert middle finger here* to the world.

P.S. There is one assumption in philosophy that might explain a lot... 'God could be Evil.' So does this mean the Devil won? Or is God just plain Evil? How the Hell (punn intended) would we know if we are living in Hell? Too many questions and too little patients left to answer them. As Slim Shady might say, "Would the real G-O-D, please stand-up?!"

[Edited on 15-2-2003 by regs]

[Edited on 15-2-2003 by regs]

[Edited on 21-3-2003 by Protector]

Hello Protector.

I am not here to mock you but if you really mean all of what your asking, then I feel that you have much frustration building upon you. Maybe you also have dissapointment within yourself because I sense that you wish to strongly believe that there is someone more divine than man but you have not found any, and have come to the conclusion that we are alone. This has triggered off a resentment upon those who do strongly believe in divine beings.

I can only speak on the christian faith, so what I can tell you is that you will never find any answers to your questions if your heart is hardened. Pride is what separates God from man, But those who humble themselves God will then draw near to them, and reveal all.
By the way you have tried to sum up christianity, You obviously have no idea about the character of Jesus.
You ask the church of God for proof. You will not get proof that way. (what are you expecting ? Magic!) .
It is written that an evil generation seeks after a sign. ( as in miracle).
You ask the christians to put their faith to the test. It is commanded not to put God to the test. (Who are we that he needs to prove himself?).
When reading some of your other posts, you asked where did sin come from?. Sin comes directly from disobedience and pride. It is written that the love of money is the root of all evil. But pride is the seed of all evil.

I do not mean to hurt your feelings in anyway, but my sole aim is to lead others to the lord so that they may recieve help and come to know what life is really all about.

It is up to you whether you take what I've said as fact or opinion, But I speak boldly for the greater good for others and not myself.

Take care

Stewards

Protector....

To be truly perfect one must also
be imperfect. This in order to encompass
all things.

To be infinite one musts also be finite
as finite existence is an aspect of all
things.

Originally posted by Protector

Aethism: These guys don't have the will to have an imagination, or faith, or belief in really complex things. A *cough* "faith" *cough* based on 'not believing'.... which is odd in itself. Seems one dimensional in a 3+ dimensional world.

My... how much you type.

And how little you know.

See, William? This place needs a fence around it with no gate, the inmates dropped in and the mods only look in from a distance. All who enter do so at the risk of your temper and patience with the understanding that you, like everyone else, have opinions, and you, like everyone, don't care about the others'. Nor can you respect each other as fellow human beings.

Protector, I see a whole other world then you, as probably most people. In Zen Buddhism one knows when he is enlightened, and though I doubt I've been enlightened, for I'm very much arrogant and opinionated
I feel I've awakend conciously in a way you haven't, hence why you've failed at Taoism.

I looked into taoism but at the time I was an atheist and so pursued my own beliefs, which eventually led to me simply sitting down and admiring all that nature has to offer, the stars, moon, mountains and forests...and most of all, it's infinite yet finiteness.

Now I see this world through such different eyes I can't relate to ecclesiastical religions anymore, hence my near hatered of Christianity, and it's limit to the human mind.

Where you see an end I see only infinity, where most see an after life, I see life, and where most see hell, I see an end.

I wish I could relate the existance I live to all of you, many of you probably wonder what I believe, because of course, I'm very opinionated about most of your beliefs...but it's actually quite hard to share my belief. Which I obtained through simple logic.

I summed it up in a nutshell with the "Cosmic Memory" and your soul, individuality and such.

But it's not enough, because the things I see, most of you (especially you jesus lovers, hellfire preachers) can never see.

You can't see life, and time in the mountains, or hear it in the wind. At least, you don't show that you hear or see this world. And in most truth, it's probably due more to our cities then to religions. But when you restrict your mind to a "fact" you lose all other possibilities.

That's why it's so retarded when ANY of you say to me "you have no facts and can't support anything". With history I'm only fact, and with religion I'm very opinionated, so don't criticze my conclusions about your religions when those I carved with different tools. I only attack your discrepencies...I have no discrepencies, only opinions...you want to retaliate, then prove I'm wrong by proving you are RIGHT.

Anyways...That is your problem Protector, you have lost site of SIMPLICITY, and the complexity of man has overwhelmed what is real, that this universe is simply there...so experience it to your fullest.

Sincerely,
no signature

What happened to all of the possibilities? IMO, they're all still here. In a nutshell, I agree with FM's basic idea here; It all boils down to what you're willing to see. Let's look at the basic facts of existence that *everyone* experiences;

1) We are here on this planet Earth & that it's part of a system of space, matter, energy & time (which is arguably just another form of energy) that includes the entire observable universe around us. This is obviously a physical existence that depends on the interaction of physical-to-physical interchanges to continue existing; Without this interchange, it will all come to naught in the end; In this manner of speaking, even energy is physical to a point, because it can act upon & be acted upon by physical matter. For example, even the "energy" of gravity owes its existance to a body of mass; Without mass, there can be no gravity. Some people postulate that everything is an illusion & nothing matters...If that's true, then none of what I say matters either. But until those people can come up with a better explanation that involves some observable proof, then they're only speculating.

2) Sooner or later, everybody gives up their life on this world. We cease to become physical at some point in our time here. Something happens to the "energy" that made up our lives, minds & consciousness. However, we have no real *facts* on what happens to that energy (becasue we haven't been able to *directly observe* what happens), so we really *know* nothing about it in reality.

3) It's a prime datum of the physical world that, in order to survive, life must consume life. That can make this world a very dangerous place. Whether it's a predatory animal in the bushes seeking to make a meal of you or some politician draining more & more of your resources away & making survival harder, it still amounts to the same thing. All of these predatory creatures seek to extend their lives by shortening yours. Even so, you must also be aware of the death that you cause to continue your survival as well; Even a vegetarian must kill plants to survive. What differs humans from the animals is that we can have a greater sense of cooperation with each other that goes beyond the simple instincts of animals. In basis: The world can be a very savage, violent place because this is the way it *must* be in order that the *whole* survives...Matter & energy passing on from one form to another, one generation to another, all cycling around so that the whole can continue existing.

From these basic observations, a few conclusions can be reached:

1) Even though this world is full of dangers, it's still a beautiful place to look at (Even in it's current state of going downhill due to pollution, overpopulation & the greed of individuals). By returning, however briefly, to a more simplistic outlook, the beauty can still be seen & appreciated. If a person can strip off the complexity of the human lifestyle (even if only for a few moments at a time), does it really take that much effort to appreciate the beauty that we have now? No matter if you believe in some supreme deity or not, no matter if you believe in some kind of afterlife or not, someday you will leave this world; If there is some kind of afterlife, your viewpoints & perspectives will change & the world will thereafter be different to you; If there is no afterlife of any kind, then you've lost any future opportunity to see this world at all. Either way. your eyes will no longer have any more opportunity to look upon this world with the same perspectives that you had while you were here.

2) The world can be described with a single phrase, as being a "Savage Garden". Full of dangers, obvious & hidden, yet still beautiful & gratifying to the senses that we must rely upon while living in physical bodies. This term, "Savage Garden", was coined by Ann Rice in her Vampire Chronicles novels, writing from the perspective of the character Lestat de Lioncourt. The appreciation of beauty is the only *real* thing that humankind has in common with each other but is denied to all other lifeforms on this planet. The bee feeds on the nectar & gathers the pollen, but can it see the beauty of the flower? It is *this* capablility that unites us with each other & seperates us from the animals...But it's really the *only* thing we have that's truly *not physical*! It's based upon the *observance* of the physical, but it *transcends* the actual realm of the physical itself.

3) If a person can take some time out of an otherwise complex world to look at & appreciate the simple beauties that are here, does it really matter all that much about an afterlife or deity? After all, once we're gone from this planet & have met our deaths, we will *never* have the opportunity to see this world with the same perceptions or perspectives again...Is it that hard to appreciate what we have while we still have it?

4) Even if our moments of appreciation of this beauty are few & far between, we can still be at peace with ourselves & each other, merely by seeing how much we all have in common in relationship to the whole of reality.

5) We don't need religion or any other kind of belief-system to see those basic truths of observable reality. All of that extra BS does is serve to confuse & frighten us with the things that our senses *can't* perceive; How can we appreciate that which we really can't experience & know nothing about? In the end, we really don't *know* anything about all of that other BS until we can experience it first-hand...All of it is only heresay & speculation based from someone else's perspectives anyway. Yes, that even includes the speculations that I write about here.

IMO, this is one of the things that God will eventually think about when our time comes for Him to judge us; "Can this human soul truly appreciate all that Heaven has to offer if this soul never learned how to appreciate the watered-down version of Heaven that I've already shown to him? Did this soul show greed & cause unnecessary suffering for the sake of its own limited exsistance on Earth? Did this soul actually appreciate the expanse & grandeur of what I've already shown him?"

To me, *these* are the *real* miracles of God (No matter how else you envision Him to be)...Such efficiency! Such management of resources, to allow for enough entropy to break down that which exists in order to give form to something new! If nothing is truly wasted, then how could it ever degrade & to the point where it *all* ceases to exist? To create such a wide & diverse existence from nothing more than His effort & Will; And that He gave it to *us*! The thing about humanity (as a whole) that has saddened me is that most of us have lost sight of the love He's already shown us by giving us all of this to explore & wonder at. In short, I need no further "miracles" to have faith in Him & His love for us.


[Edited on 5-11-2002 by MidnightDStroyer]

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
See, William? This place needs a fence around it with no gate, the inmates dropped in and the mods only look in from a distance. All who enter do so at the risk of your temper and patience with the understanding that you, like everyone else, have opinions, and you, like everyone, don't care about the others'. Nor can you respect each other as fellow human beings.

What? Was that directed at me?

Stewards:
Yes, I am frustrated. The problem is not that I haven't found God, but that God doesn't fit the mold I selfishly created of Him, perhaps a result of past religious teachings. My conclusion is not that we are alone as much as "we are bored." My heart is not hardened, but my temper is aroused. My understanding of Christianity is extensive, but reality often has nothing to do with Christian teachings. I don't believe in the Bible because if God wants us to know of Him, then He will lets us know. My problem stems from the latter half of this paradox.

I know God exists (whether He be the Christian God or just a God we are too stupid to know of), but I get frustrated trying to figure out "our purpose." I consider Jesus to be an example, but related more to a "cosmic memory" as another note suggests... not necessarily as the Bible sums up his life. Why the hell shouldn't I expect magic? Is God not capable of magic? Saying that there is no sign is like relating Christian teachings to that idiot Aristotle and his mental knowledge of the world. He believed that nothing had to be tested to be known... and he helped throw us into the another dark age.

"You ask the christians to put their faith to the test. It is commanded not to put God to the test. (Who are we that he needs to prove himself?)."

You D**N right I do! If I don't put it to the test than I am blind, lame, and stupid! I don't buy into the whole 'christians are sheep' bit. I will be disappointed to learn that the secret to my life is that I am worthless piece of naval lent left to rot in space/time while God sits back and laughs at our soap opera. I don't think so! Who am I? I'm his creation and like a father to a son, he better own up to his children. So what is God going to do? Blink me out of existance... well, then I wouldn't care anymore would I? It's not my pride that eats me alive, it's my loneliness. Where are you God? *NO ANSWER*

I know one thing must be true... leaders of the past set up religions to keep the people stupid and happy... well I don't consider myself either, so they've failed and now I want the truth. The only conclusion at this point of my life is that either God is Evil or God doesn't care.

Thanks for your post, but I still have too many issues to settle for that answer.

Toltec:

"To be truly perfect one must also
be imperfect. This in order to encompass
all things.

To be infinite one musts also be finite
as finite existence is an aspect of all
things.

Man is Infinite,
God is More. "


You sound like my philosophy teacher, who regularly claims that he has no idea what's going on in the universe. If God is omnipotent, then He can make a rock so big that He can't lift it. But if He can't lift it, He isn't omnipotent and if He can't make a rock so big that He can't lift it, then He isn't omnipotent in that respect, so God is not omnipotent because omnipotence is flawed by definition . Anyway, you're saying reminded me of that. If you are saying that God is imperfect, then I must say that He is a shining example of imperfection as well. If He is finite, then He can die and could therefore be dead, which I tend to disagree with.

I've somewhat come to the conclusion that we are in Hell and just don't know what Hell is, so we call it the Universe. Evil people are often rewarded in this world and good people are shunned... sounds like a good basis for my Hell belief. Is Hell really burning, or is it just our burning desires to have a life that we never can have?

P.s. Hmm... I wonder if the Universe got so big that God couldn't control it... interesting
... a thought to ponder none-the-less, although seemingly irrational.

Freemason:

This was my most favorite post out of the bunch. I haven't given up on Taoism, but I do get angry with such passive viewpoints on life... such as its close relation to Stoicism, which basically takes a backseat to much of life. Sure, Stoics claim that they have the answers by being passive, peaceful lovers of life, but sometimes I think they don't want to change anything, so they gladly accept things the way they are. I'm in a stage of my life where I can't accept that as an answer. If William Wallace said, "Oh well, let the English rape our women and steal our land, giving us unbelievable taxes and eventually killing us," then there would be no heroes among us, just more Hell and chaos.

I fear that I am developing a similar hatred to mainstream Christian thought and practices. There are too many half-truths and too much hatred in "the Church" to consider it a viable source of information anymore.

Short(ish) Story:
I once knew a pastor who gave the greatest sermons and made you want to be a better person and live a better life everyday. He truthly had the gift to teach, not so much to preach. He was pulled into the business side of the church and was taken away from the people, which is a great injustice. I believe he went back to giving sermons because he hated the burocracy of the chruch and he wanted to reach out to the people, where he truly belonged. He had a heart attack and died for a few minutes. When they revived him, he said that nothing happened when he was dead, it was just blank. It shook my faith, hearing of this event. If any man deserved to have a taste of Heaven, it would have been him, but yet there was nothing. I later changed this opinion after having a truly religious experience, which has lead me to this point of my life... a rather non-religious experience to say the least. So in summation, if good people that give the world good things don't experience heavenly bliss, what do the rest of us have to offer?.. and if he left the "burocracy"/"business" of the church, that tells me that there is something wrong with the workings of the Christian church itself.

"Where you see an end I see only infinity, where most see an after life, I see life, and where most see hell, I see an end."

Would you elaborate on that? I find it interesting, but not necessarily true.

My mind is not strictly based in "fact," but a basis needs to be positioned somewhere. I love ideas and possibilities, but at some point they become obsurd. I cannot make my thoughts into a reality by 'willing' them into being, so I need to be more realistic with my religion/faith/belief structure as well. You can only argue a point for so long before you realize that you, yourself are wrong, or that the point is incomplete. I certainly fit that statement.

I use to see the world as beautiful... the mountains, rivers, clean air, bustling life, etc... but then I had a rude awakening. No one was like I was... I lost my girlfriend, my whole life changed directions, I was losing friends, I didn't care about people as much as "the cosmic wholeness," and basically just ended up wasting more of my life away. Anymore, I don't fit the categories of materialism or religion. I quickly gave up my self-controlled bliss, or lack thereof, for a new search for the truth. It's been years now and the only thing progressing is my hatred,.. which is something that I can't stand about myself.

"Anyways...That is your problem Protector, you have lost site of SIMPLICITY, and the complexity of man has overwhelmed what is real, that this universe is simply there...so experience it to your fullest."

That's for sure! One problem: if there is no purpose, and life is just simply "there," as you say, then there is no reason for living, caring, or doing anything because all things are merely futile once you peel back all the layers of crap. In essence, existance is equal to nonexistance and one might as well not exist at all... which is a contradiction.

Thanks

MidnightDStroyer:

Your #1) I highly agree, but isn't gravity a spacetime distortion where by large masses may invoke gravitational distrotions, yet do not necessarily create them. Maybe I'm off on that one.

#2) Is that suppose to help me? Actually we have thousands of documented near-death experiences (NDEs) and perhaps billions who claim to know the all the answers, but where the truth is... no one seems to agree.

#3) So God is a savage? That's a new one for me. I'll think on that.

Your second #1) OK? I miss the point. I would rather look upon the world with eyes that can see the truth... that way I could either do something about it or enjoy it. The problem is that I can't. Either way, being in the middle is like only doing half a job, such as Iraq the first time we went in. Now we risk nuclear war, bio/chemical terrorism, large masses of death, and a bunch of stupid people running around trying to make decision for billions of people. Well, I don't want my life to be remembered as someone who just helped everything continue on with its half-a** attempts. If we're in the Matrix, then I want to help or be Neo, but if not, then I want to see the world the way it is meant to be seen... this in-between stuff just isn't working out.

#2) I'm not following your viewpoint here. I think #4 relates to what you are trying to say, better.

#3) Extremely interesting with the second question. The first question is simple... I can be a rapist, murder, Nazi, and all-around bad guy and still love my life. If this is true, then I would be properly balanced and happy in this world, because, hey, I'm all that really matters. As to the second question, I often ask myself that same thing. Will I come back (a type of reincarnation according to physics)? My answer is NO. Although it may be slightly probable, it seems irrational that we would be reborn onto this universe "anew."

#4) Where is this actually happening in our world? Talk is cheap and most talk doesn't live up to its name. How many people have a relationship with the whole of reality? Even if they don't know it, how many really do? I would say very, very few. The theory is great, but the reality just doesn't match up.

#5) Ok, so basically you're saying that science is impossible, nothing can really be observed, and the whole world lies to us? I'm trying ot get away from that being the only available answer.

Your conclusion: I totally disagree. The premise behind Heaven is almost an irrational application of good vs evil or greater good vs lesser good. If you are good, you get rewarded more in Heaven, but if you are kinda good, then you get a little reward, but then Heaven wouldn't be equal and there were would be the kings and there would be the slaves and it wouldn't really be Heaven. If there is a Hell, then God necessarily has hatred and punishes people for an evil which He must have created, since He created all things. Again, these concepts are flawed by definition, because now God is a great king who punishes little people and favors people who kiss His a**. That's just dark age thinking. There must be more, but we seem to be too blind to see it. I do, however agree that the compassion would be part of the real equation.

Perhaps I am asking for a miracle, but for a "good," "all-powerful," "all-knowing" God, where could He ever go wrong by me if He were perfect? Maybe He can answer that with a miracle... but I bet He won't.... and that's a challenge.

This is the first time I have seen this thread, and I think the first post you made was really good Protector.. Good on you for being honest, and thoroughly cynical

There however is the core of the issue, cynicism can be based on disappointment, and it seems to be the case here.

You can't screw your life up because you demand God operate in a certain way and he doesn't. So what if the pastor didn't have a profound experience, only a few people say the have NDE's, it doesn't negate anything he said.

If you turn your back on everything, you will be left with nothing, and even if people try and reach you cynicism is a hard wall to break down.

Nothing worse than becoming an angry disolusioned old man, take the opportunity whist you have it now to change the road you are walking on..

Turn back to God.

Originally posted by William

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
See, William? This place needs a fence around it with no gate, the inmates dropped in and the mods only look in from a distance. All who enter do so at the risk of your temper and patience with the understanding that you, like everyone else, have opinions, and you, like everyone, don't care about the others'. Nor can you respect each other as fellow human beings.

What? Was that directed at me?

If you'd like to start digging the holes, I'll go fetch the fence poles.

Hello Protector...

What I am saying is that for something infinite to exist, it must encompass all things. All things include (by definition) a finite reality. To say that what is perfect must also be imperfect is to present the idea that what is imperfect, is simply an aspect of perfection; and so perfect in its own way. This from the perspective or intent of the one who is perfect. And while it is true you may not agree with his opinion, you are not perfect so how can you judge what he thinks is?

Nonetheless for me God is always more; my present frame of thought concludes this as a standard.

What are your thoughts?

[Edited on 23-11-2002 by Toltec]

Netchicken:

"This is the first time I have seen this thread, and I think the first post you made was really good Protector.. Good on you for being honest, and thoroughly cynical"

Thanks? Hehe. I decided to stop lying to myself months ago. I realized that there is quite a bit of resentment for believing in a world that has constantly lied to me. My cynicism some what of a culmanation of built up frustration. I figured someone on these boards might be able to help me on my path. So far I'm not disappointed by most of the posts, but the journey for me is still quite long.

"There however is the core of the issue, cynicism can be based on disappointment, and it seems to be the case here."

You're absolutely correct. I am disappointed... and it runs deep.

"You can't screw your life up because you demand God operate in a certain way and he doesn't. So what if the pastor didn't have a profound experience, only a few people say the have NDE's, it doesn't negate anything he said."

You are partly correct. My assumption, though, is not that God must operate in a certain way, but why He chooses to operate in this way (which seems to me that He is not operating at all, anymore). I forget who says it, but one quote (paraphrased) is, 'Once one small child suffers, all belief in a good God goes out the window.' I've never heard a logical argument as to why suffering is necessary. On the contrary, I've heard many arguments as to why suffering could be eliminated altogether and still have a very similar lifestyle (for those who love being themselves). I'm not wanting God to do a specific anything, but something would be nice. I again refer to the "bastard" analogy. If God is out there, why abandon us, or appear to have abandoned us? It could be my perception, such as a baby who plays peek-a-boo actually believes that the parent is gone when they have just covered over their face. Still, peek-a-boo is a sh**y game to play for one's entire human lifespan.

I have learned to live with my pastor's lack of a NDE, but it is one of the main points that started me on this journey. I want to know some reasoning for God's actions. I don't think it is too much to ask for, yet it seems to be. Since when did asking/demanding for a bit a reasoning become too much? I'm not asking for all of life to spelled out, some sort of explanation would help.... such as in the movie Dogma (which I thought was pretty funny) where God touches the girl's nose and says, "boop." Even that is better than nothing. Ok, so that was a really bad analogy, but oh well .


"If you turn your back on everything, you will be left with nothing, and even if people try and reach you cynicism is a hard wall to break down."

The wall has thorns, too. I've noticed that turning my back helps me to understand more of what that "nothing" I'm left with is. It is hard for people to reach me, admittingly, but not impossible. The road to the top of the mountain is never flat nor smooth (darn highway department ).

"Nothing worse than becoming an angry disolusioned old man, take the opportunity whist you have it now to change the road you are walking on.."

I'm already angry and disolusioned and have been for years... the trick is to find out why and fix it... that's what I'm doing. Perhaps I'm still in the first stages of recovery by admitting I have a problem. Who knew the XMB boards would be an AA meeting. I am tryin to change the road I walk on, but I too often turn toward the edge of the mountain or go backwards. I need help and I'm not too proud to ask for it from anyone (not even God).

"Turn back to God."

I never actually turned away... I only fear that He did.

Thanks for the post.

Toltec:

My thoughts...

I like your knowledge. It seems like a mathematical nightmare to say that imperfection is part of perfection, but I'm smart enough to know what you are getting at. The integration of all possible existance is infinite.

"and so perfect in its own way."

I'm not sure about that one. Perhaps this is more based in chemistry, where you would be right. If you put a glass of milk in a lake, the water will not change colors, but technically the lake is still diluted. If the lake is still diluted (no matter how insignificant) then it off-set from its natural state and is therefore less perfect because it has deviated from its natural standard. Of course, looking at it in another light would be to say that the lake is no less perfect because it still fulfills its purpose even with the glass of milk added, seeing that it is nearly like the equation of infinity divided by a number which is still infinity.

Hmmm... thinking...

Ok, now I'm making the assumptions that the milk is bad for the lake and that the badness exists with the milk. Lets take these two separately.

If the milk is bad for the lake, then, as we are the milk, we would be bad for God (the lake) and that is a bad assumption, but if God is infinite, then the glass of milk would never be big enough to change anything about the lake, seeing that it is infinite. So that still begs the question of our being bad or not and our importance to God if we are attempting to dilute his lake. This is the point where I am stuck.

The second situation is that badness exists within the milk, which is within the lake. That means that evil exists within the lake and the lake is still uneffected, but the milk IS effected by itself. This is a nightmare. If we are the source of our own evil, then why haven't we been diluted by The Lake? If the lake cannot dilute milk, then evil is more potent than the Lake's ability to dilute. Ok, now I think I'm stuck again.


"This from the perspective or intent of the one who is perfect. And while it is true you may not agree with his opinion, you are not perfect so how can you judge what he thinks is?"

If God is a perfect being, then He should be able to provide a perfectly understandable explanation. That is what I'm searching for. If His use of perfection is merely an opinion, then His opinion could technically be wrong if it were compared to a second perfect opinion. I don't particularly care for that statement/question... my reasoning... If I am part of His perfect existance, then my perfection should be as true as His, since His infinance would pentration and encompass all existance, and my judgement should be perfectly logical within the system of His perfection, if it is perfect. Therefore, I can judge his system based on a premise of my own connection to His perfection. This conclusion almost begs the question, if you aren't God, then you won't ever be perfectly happy because you aren't the whole of the system, unless we are?

"Nonetheless for me God is always more; my present frame of thought concludes this as a standard."

I like your standard and it brings up good questions, but these questions beg answers, which don't appear to be readily available.

Now, what are your thoughts?

P.S. You don't mind that I use mathematics, chemistry, ethics, and philosophy to build a basis of reasoning, do you?

By reading all of these posts, does anyone see where my confusion and frustration comes in? I should be careful not to turn it into anger, but I think my questions are valid.

Hey Protector let me begin by stating that whatever analogies you wish to apply are fine. Hope you do not mind if I apply the same

Let�s begin:

Protector states (in Quotes)...

"If God is a perfect being, then He should be able to provide a perfectly understandable explanation. That is what I'm searching for. If His use of perfection is merely an opinion, then His opinion could technically be wrong if it were compared to a second perfect opinion. I don't particularly care for that statement/question... my reasoning... If I am part of His perfect existence, then my perfection should be as true as His, since His infinance would pentration and encompass all existance, and my judgement should be perfectly logical within the system of His perfection, if it is perfect. Therefore, I can judge his system based on a premise of my own connection to His perfection. This conclusion almost begs the question, if you aren't God, then you won't ever be perfectly happy because you aren't the whole of the system, unless we are?

"

Consider a piece of a puzzle in which the whole image is not clearly represented. One, who has free will, can draw several conclusions as to what the whole puzzle looks like as well where it fits in relation to that conclusion. But the fact of the matter is one can be completely wrong as to how the puzzle actually looks as well as where the piece fits.

If the milk is bad for the lake, then, as we are the milk, we would be bad for God (the lake) and that is a bad assumption, but if God is infinite, then the glass of milk would never be big enough to change anything about the lake, seeing that it is infinite. So that still begs the question of our being bad or not and our importance to God if we are attempting to dilute his lake. This is the point where I am stuck.

Using the analogy of a person who has drawn the wrong conclusions in relation to a piece in a puzzle, one question which comes to mind is how God would consider the relevance of the false conclusion. Also to what extent does the false conclusion affect the fact that it is in reality a piece of a puzzle which belongs to another image?

If God is a perfect being, then He should be able to provide a perfectly understandable explanation. That is what I'm searching for. If His use of perfection is merely an opinion, then His opinion could technically be wrong if it were compared to a second perfect opinion. I don't particularly care for that statement/question... my reasoning... If I am part of His perfect existence, then my perfection should be as true as His, since His infinance would pentration and encompass all existance, and my judgement should be perfectly logical within the system of His perfection, if it is perfect. Therefore, I can judge his system based on a premise of my own connection to His perfection. This conclusion almost begs the question, if you aren't God, then you won't ever be perfectly happy because you aren't the whole of the system, unless we are?

In relation to God that would depend on your opinion. Once you were able to perceive the puzzle for what it was meant to look like (as well how the piece you had, fit into that image).

Protector my impression of the term God is that whatever conclusion we draw as to its structure and meaning, will always not be enough. Awareness as we understand it exists, because reality (in order to truly be real) must be complete and we are the result of that conclusion.

Therefore any determinations we make about infinity are not conclusion about God, but rather about ourselves.

What are your thoughts?

Protector was expecting a response in relation to this post???