F-22 Raptor to Debut at Red Flag

My sources at Nellis are telling me the Raptor will debut at Red Flag 2007 this coming January.
It will definitely be going against the Aggressor squadrons of F-15's and 16's - what is unclear is whether it will be flying while any foriegn guests are in the air.

I hope that invitation to the RAF is in the post, although maybe the RAF will glue the letter box shut?

Not deploying the American "I Win!" button in practice ACM against foreign countries? That doesn't seem like a W. Bush thing to do.

Sorry, I can't resist.

Intelgurl correct me if I'm wrong but this will not be the first time the Raptor has gone up against the Nellis aggressor squadron and it's pilots, however those ACM's were not done during Red Flag. And as much as I would like the predictable (sorry guys but they are) results of the F-22 Vs. foreign fighters the F-22 should not fly against foreign jets. We can't reveal its full capabilities just yet, even to friends.

Which makes me think that if the Top Brass decide to let it fly against foreign planes it will probably fly with "downgraded" capabilities and with pilots who have been briefed on what they can and can't do, performance wise.

Or, maybe the top brass will WANT to show off the plane. My mentality would be to show off and be like yeah we can do more. Wanna bring it? I'd love to see some dogfighting exercises with that thing, just to see what it can really do. I honestly dont think many people give it enough credit.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
Intelgurl correct me if I'm wrong but this will not be the first time the Raptor has gone up against the Nellis aggressor squadron and it's pilots, however those ACM's were not done during Red Flag. And as much as I would like the predictable (sorry guys but they are) results of the F-22 Vs. foreign fighters the F-22 should not fly against foreign jets. We can't reveal its full capabilities just yet, even to friends.

Which makes me think that if the Top Brass decide to let it fly against foreign planes it will probably fly with "downgraded" capabilities and with pilots who have been briefed on what they can and can't do, performance wise.

True - it's not the first time it's flown against the aggressors, but it is the first time it will fly in an excercise where other countries are represented - and yes, it's first time at Red Flag.
As for downgraded capabilities; if there are non-US aircraft flying chances are the F-22 will have radar reflectors of some sort. If it is just US aircraft then it might be fully capable - so yes I agree with your thoughts.

Isn't there a Brit pilot flying a Raptor? I seem to recall an article talking about it. I believe there's also a B2 exchange pilot?

Actually, rather than be lazy, I'll answer my own questions!

RAF Pilot trains on F-22

RAF pilot flies B2

I don't think flying against higher tier foreign nations is going to cause that many issues. The general capabilities are already known, and if Coalition ops are going to continue into the future, mission leads need to know how to plan for new weapon systems being integrated into packages, whether it be F-22s, UCAVs or the CAOC. For nations not used to the capabilities of the whole system they may be a part of in a shooting war, this can be a real eye-opener.

Yeah there is an exchange program, there is a US pilot flying the Typhoon in return but this is different. Those soldiers are obviously not allowed to "spill the beans" if you will, but here we would be demonstrating its full capabilities for everyone there, against foreign platforms something which would be new for even Raptor pilots. And IMO there is no reason why another country (even allies) should know how small a radar return it has, or how fast and maneuverable it really is, no reason at all.

Actually, it is very important for mission planning in a Coalition environment. If the plan is to never use the Raptor in a Coalition environment, then your post is valid. However, if you are going to integrate Coalition assets into mission packages, and the Coalition partner may be the MC (Mission Commander), they need to understand the capabilities of the system. This includes assets like the F-22, but also other assets such as jamming aircraft, SEAD, the CAOC etc. While Australia doesn't have these capabilities, we still plan indiginous exercise missions with notional assets, so that when we do real world mission planning (like we did in the Gulf), we can fully integrate in, rather than just be a spare wheel. We were mission commander for a number of strikes in the Gulf, and understanding the capabilities of US and British aircraft and systems was of fundamental importance to mission success.

You can still exercise with foreign nations, and keep some things NOFORN. We do the same. But I don't think there's going to be too many surprises for participants regarding what the F-22 can do.

Also, I think you'll find the 22s won't be flying "against" the foreign platforms. They'll be flying "with" them, and "against" the Agressors. An important difference because it is easier to compartmentalise the sensitive NOFORN info.

Oh, and if you think your Brit friends are going to keep schtum about the platforms capabilities when they get back and have a beer with their mates, then I think you may have a problem!

is this the event the RAF wins every year??

lets hope the typhoon is there and teaches that overated peace of stealth scrap (called the f-22) who it's daddy is

Sepiroth, you greatly underestimate the capablities of Raptor. Hey, everybody are entitled to their opinions but this is a fact, F-22A Raptors are replacing the world's greatest fighting machine, F-15 Eagle, for full service of USAF. You better hope that RAF would be able to get their hands on F-22s in someday. Thought, it will be luckly for RAF to acquire these jets with Wright bros' kittyhawk engine.

By the way, let me correct your spelling, its overrated.


[edit on 5-10-2006 by OneMyrmidon]

pmsl, the f-15 world's greatest fighting machine

well the typhoon must be the UNIVERSES greatest fighting machine, because a EF-typhoon took out 2 (yes TWO) f-15's here:-

scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com...

then when i read threads like these, www.abovetopsecret.com...

i don't know what your so confident about dude

[edit on 5-10-2006 by Sepiroth]

Originally posted by Sepiroth
pmsl, the f-15 world's greatest fighting machine

well the typhoon must be the UNIVERSES greatest fighting machine, because a EF-typhoon took out 2 (yes TWO) f-15's here:-

scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com...

The F-15 used to be the greatest fighter we had IMO. The F-22 is far ahead of that. One F-22 took down 5 F-15s in the span of 8 minutes from long range without the F-15s even seeing him.

then when i read threads like these, www.abovetopsecret.com...

i don't know what your so confident about dude

[edit on 5-10-2006 by Sepiroth]

That engagement was snap shot by SH that almost crashed into the Raptor trying to get the kill frames. It was a non-standard engagement at low speeds and he did not have enough frames for a kill. The SH also had no weapons on it unlike the Raptor which had a normal combat loadout.

Basically, that shot would not even happen as the Raptor would have killed the Super Hornet before it was detected. Always research your stories.

Sepiroth I thought you were kidding with your first post, thought you were being sarcastic, however you are underestimating the Raptor if you think that about it.


[edit on 5-10-2006 by WestPoint23]

ok seriously now,

MOST people agree the typhoon and the f-22 are 1 and 2 best fighters that money can buy at present....if you compare these aircraft (which many forums and websites do), you will get the typhoon is a 'better' aircraft with the f-22 being the 'smarter' aircraft...now for me the f-22 realies too much on stealth, all i ever hear about is how the f-22 will shoot do something before its even detected on radar....now in combat things don't 'always' go as planned and i honestly think it would be interesting to see the typhoon and the F-22 in a straight out dogfight excerise ....you forget the typhoon also has stealth characteristics which often get underestimated by people.

+ just for agruements sake, given the tranche 3 planned updates for the typhoon (AMSAR & Meteor etc) it will be more than a match for the 'slyness' of the f-22 IMO and the typhoon is 3 times cheaper

i would also like to take this opportunity to quote a man (US airforce chief of staff geneal John P. Jumper) who was once the only person to fly both the typhoon and the f-22.

--------------------
"the Eurofighter is both agile and sophisticated, but is still difficult to compare to the F/A-22 Raptor. They are different kinds of airplanes to start with; it's like asking us to compare a NASCAR car with a Formular 1 car. They are both exciting in different ways, but they are designed for different levels of performance".
-------------------

westpoint you tell me i'm underestimating the raptor, i think your underestimating the typhoon my friend

Typhoons stealth is more a marketing point than reality. It's smaller RCS - but still not stealthy grade - might help but only if Typhoon flies straight against enemy radar. If enemy is positioned just few degrees to the side and it's RCS would quickly become larger.

The same with supercruise - I'm not sure about this, but if it will be capable to fly with weapons at just 1.3 Mach it would be maybe better to fly subsonic. Flying at transonic speeds is generally not very fuel effective.

Saudi Air Force Eurofighter Typhoons vs Israeli IAF/IDF F-16I SUFA
Where's your money?

Are there any airforces besides the RAF taking part?

saudi's don't have the EF-typhoon (at least not yet) as no deal has been agreed,

its like saying how will the british f-35's do, no deal as been agreed with that and *touch wood* won't be...ive already expressed my views in recent discussions about what is best for the royal navy regarding the jsf project and how i think a navlised eurofighter would not only be a BETTER option but a cheaper one at that.

Originally posted by Sepiroth
saudi's don't have the EF-typhoon (at least not yet) as no deal has been agreed,

Deal finalised on:
18th August 2006, 72 jets
Read Here
~Apology accepted~


On a very gentle/subtle note:
Oct 13 will see the RAF 43rd Sqdrn(Tornadoes) touch down at Gwalior AFB TACDE
(IAF TopGun) to conduct a series of exercises with the IAF involving the Mirage 2000 and the Su-30MKI
Here's what's a tad relevant here:
This is the FIRST time EVER the Su 30 MKI version will be used in a foreign exercise (this was denied to the USAF.. )

Maybe those guys at those RAF sqdrn get-togethers WILL share info on the F22 and the Su30MKI..
Seems they're getting the best deal..

EADS says on their own website that the F-22 is superior in most performance aspects to the Eurofighter. The study by DERA also reflects this although it's a little outdated.

If the AESA Eagles and Super Hornets can't detect the Raptor until close range, I doubt the Eurofighter can either seeing as how those two radars are more agile and powerful than the CAPTOR.

The Eurofighter is a great air superiority fighter. Almost everyone will acknowledge that. However, the F-22 is on a different level and it's price and capabilities reflect that.