IRA & Irish Republicanism

Has the cause for an unified Irish state collapsed? Will we ever see any one of the remaining groups (Real IRA & Continuity IRA) conduct further campaigns in the future? Could they have some form of alliance with other 'terror' organisations around the world? Does anyone have stories regarding the IRA, perhaps former British military personnel?

This is definitely terrorism - but is it WoT?

Perhaps we should have a section 'The Unfought War on Terror Back When it Was OK to Bomb People'

To answer the question I don't think so as the main PIRA terrorist is now the education minister in Northern Ireland and no-one on the catholic side ever did anything without his say so.

Perhaps if the budget for pencils is cut the 'Real, Real (no Really) IRA will emerge and set off the odd bomb or two but apart from that I think it's over.

You could've answered that straight away minus the wittycism

Although i never mentioned the Provos since they've declared an end to the armed campaign since last year. The only ones left are the Real IRA & Continuity IRA both of whom i mentioned. Perhaps not immediately but at a later date, if things miraculously settle down in the Middle East.

[edit on 25/9/06 by Flyboy211]

I think their main source of finance has dried up somewhat since 9/11 ....

(That's probably why they staged the Northern Bank robbery.)

Nowadays they seem happy to run protection rackets and the like, but I guess if they ever got sufficent finance they'd happily buy more bombs off whoever was selling (which probably means someone like Iran, since Libya seems to have quietly dropped off the scene). After all, once an evil, callous, child killer, always an evil, callous, child killer ...

Originally posted by Flyboy211
You could've answered that straight away minus the wittycism

Although i never mentioned the Provos since they've declared an end to the armed campaign since last year. The only ones left are the Real IRA & Continuity IRA both of whom i mentioned. Perhaps not immediately but at a later date, if things miraculously settle down in the Middle East.

[edit on 25/9/06 by Flyboy211]

I'm sorry? Are you criticisng the time it took me to respond or my opinions? Either way I have (as far as I know) the right to express my opinions in my own time!!

You didn't mention PIRA but appear to be under the impression that Real/Continuity IRA are completely separate from PIRA whereas many believe they were mere constructs to allow the Republican leaders to simultaneously broker a peace and keep killing people. In the same ay that PIRA was just an extension of the (O)IRA who previously tried to go down the route of peace but retained the means, via a 'separate' organisation, to cause death & mayhem

If you honestly belive that any republicans can conduct terrorism without the tacit approval of McGuinness/Adams then you are entitled to that view but I think you're being naive.

Plus I realy don't think this is WoT thread

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Essan - I agree just because a murderer now wears a suit doesn't stop them being a murderer, just makes them a better dressed one

Has the cause for an unified Irish state collapsed? Will we ever see any one of the remaining groups (Real IRA & Continuity IRA) conduct further campaigns in the future? Could they have some form of alliance with other 'terror' organisations around the world? Does anyone have stories regarding the IRA, perhaps former British military personnel?

I would say no it has not collapsed. One of these days we might see a united Ireland. Do I think it will happen in my lifetime? No it will not. Has the violence/ terroism stopped. Yes to some certain extent. But you still hear of certain incidents of gang killins, or peoples homes being firebombed in N/Ireland.

The IRA not the Real IRA, has supposingly given up their weapons. Will believe it when I see it. Oh and BTW it is not just the IRA, the UDA Loyalist side of off this also carry out gangland killins or firebombing homes. So to say it has stopped comepletely. That would be a wrong assumption.

There is growing confidence the IRA has decommissioned, one of the witnesses to the republican paramilitary group putting its "arms beyond use" has said.

In September 2005 the weapons monitoring body said the IRA had decommissioned all its weapons

Source

While the likes of Rev Paisly or Sin Feinn still a round there will always be tension between the both sides. But at least some of them are sharing power.


[edit on 26-9-2006 by spencerjohnstone]

Originally posted by Strangerous
I'm sorry? Are you criticisng the time it took me to respond or my opinions? Either way I have (as far as I know) the right to express my opinions in my own time!!

Eh? What are you on about lol.

I criticised your attempt at humour and being witty, when it failed and only served as fluff in between your answer. Which you could have given plainly, without such attempts at sarcasm with "only with pencil supply cut backs" or whatever you said.

I never criticised the amount of time you took to formulate your reply, why would i want to deny someone their right to an opinion? Although with your second reply, you seemed to grasp the idea better, not to put in so much crap.

Originally posted by Strangerous
You didn't mention PIRA but appear to be under the impression that Real/Continuity IRA are completely separate from PIRA whereas many believe they were mere constructs to allow the Republican leaders to simultaneously broker a peace and keep killing people. In the same ay that PIRA was just an extension of the (O)IRA who previously tried to go down the route of peace but retained the means, via a 'separate' organisation, to cause death & mayhem

"Whereas many believe" so are you going by what you've heard are have you actually researched the facts?

I hardly think the Real & Continuity break-away movements were engineered by the Official IRA & Provos simply as a ruse so they could achieve their objectives politically, whilst sustaining the armed campaign. I would suggest you do more reading. I.e "Pocket History of The IRA" - Brendan O Brien (1) & "Pocket History of The Troubles" - Brian Feeney (2). Whilst they are only pocket book editions, they do concisely describe the events around the long history of the IRA and troubles.

Let me elaborate :-

"The IRA"

The IRA Splits

On 22 September 1969, the IRA's Belfast Brigade staff was reorganised. New members were taken in and the Brigade then formally disaffiliated from the Army Council. The latest split had started. Meanwhile the organisation of 'safe' and 'genuine' militant republicans went apace. The final break came at an Army Convention called by the Goulding leadership in December 1969. A majority backed the leadership's main proposals: 1) the de facto recognition of the governments in Dublin, Belfast and London by dropping the hallowed IRA policy of abstentionism (not taking seats if elected); 2) the forging of a National Liberation Front as the main vehicle for action. The losing minority then withdrew, held their own General Army Convention and formed a Provisional Army Council. On 28 December 1969 the new group issued a public statement. Stating the reacsons for the walk-out it said:

"We declare our allegiance to the 32-County Irish Republic proclaimed at Easter 1916, established by the first Dáil Éireann in 1919, overthrown by force of arms in 1922 and suppressed to this day by the existing British-imposed Six County and 26-County partition states.

Already a majority of Army Units, individual Volunteers and Republicans generally have given their allegiance to the Provisional Executive and Provisional Army Council elected by us at this convention and have rejected the new compromising leadership in the election of which we did not even participate."

Three days later, on 31 December 1969, 'legitimacy' was conferred on the new Provisional IRA by the last surviving member of the Executive of of the 1921 all-Irelans Dáil, Thomas Maguire....In his public statement 'Commdt General' Maguire declared that the existing (Goulding) IRA Executive and Army Council were 'illegal'. He went on

"I hereby further declare that the Provisional Executive and the Provisional Army Council are the lawful Executive and Army Council respectively of the IRA and that the Governmental authority delegated in the Proclamation of 1938 now resides in the Provisional Army Council and its lawful successors"

Also :-

Return to 'War' 1995 - 1997

.....Politically, Clinton's visit to Northern Ireland encouraged the Adams 'camp' and generally created noticeable goodwill on both sides of the divide. In this period, however, Gerry Adams was privately warning sources in Dublin that he was 'losing the argument' internally. An IRA resumption could have been expected at any stage.

As the new year turned, further pressure was applied when, on 6 January 1996, the Continuity Army Council revealed its existence. Claiming leadership of the Irish Republican Army and pledging allegiance to the thirty-two county Republic, the CAC said 'action will be taken in the future at an appropriate time'. A number of prior and later bombing missions in Monaghan, Enniskillen, Derry and Belfast gave credence to the claim. It was a destablising shot across the bows and a red light warning for unhappy IRA activists. Adams effectively lost the argument on 22 January 1996.

Originally posted by Strangerous
If you honestly belive that any republicans can conduct terrorism without the tacit approval of McGuinness/Adams then you are entitled to that view but I think you're being naive.

With the reading i've done, it's blatantly obvious that there was a genuine split within the republican movement. It would be misleading and false to say that all republicans would need the strict approval of McGuiness & Adams, since not all of the republicans follow them, hence why you have the Real IRA & Continuity IRA. Here's some more things :-

But division in the ranks of the Republican movement was made public when An Phoblact (major republican Irish political newspaper) published the speech Adams had prepared for the opening session at Castle Buildings in Stormont, Belfast. In the prepared speech, Adams described the talks as 'the historic opportunity...a unique and unprecedented opportunity to forge a peace accord for all the people of the island.' There could be no clearer indication that Adams thought the time had come to start talking and stop bombing.

Almost simultaneously, on 15 June, a 1.5 ton IRA bomb exploded in Manchester City centre, causing huge desctruction and injuring about 200 people. It came a week after an IRA unit shot dead a Garda, Gerry McCabe during a post office raid in Adare, Co Limerick.

[edit on 26/9/06 by Flyboy211]

Pocket History of the IRA

Pocket History of the Troubles

[edit on 8-3-2007 by DontTreadOnMe]

Cont....

...These were fraught times. The Republican movement's moral position had been seriously undermined by the resumed campaign. The Adams-McGuiness leadership was on trial, and potentially in jeopardy, like never before.

Politics Conquers War 1997 - 2000

If the IRA's mission was set to continue it was also destined for further division. The militarists within were determined never to give up the Holy Grail; for them it could only be undiluted 'Brits out'. In the end, they held fast and the IRA split again. But the Adams-McGuiness leadership kept the great majority on board as they jumped on the political train, which began an unstoppable journey into uncharted territory once Britian's new Prime Minister took the driver's wheel.

.... and set the scene for another for another bloody rift within the Republican movement. Already those on the outside, the Continuity IRA had made their point with a powerful bomb in Markethill, County Armagh, the day formal talks began at Stormont Castle. Inside the (Provisional) IRA, discontent gathered around three senior figures: the Director of Engineering in Dublinl the Quartermaster General in Louthl and the former long-time Chief-of-Staff in Monaghan. These three disaffected leaders and their close associates could muster thirty years' experience in bomb-making and guerilla operations. Their problem was how to handle opposition to the Adams-McGuiness strategy, which was clearly leading to a 'sell-out' on the final aim of an all-Ireland Republic. There was little appetite for a split and virtually none for an alliance with the Continuity IRA. Still, in time a serious and significant effort was made to resume a sustained armed campaign by those people who considered themselves the 'Real IRA'.

....A resumed armed campaign was inevitable, driven by a powerful combination of operatives inside and outside the Republican Movement. The key question for internal dissidents seeking 'action' was: could a resumed campaign be sustained. If so, it would undoubtedly draw recruits. If not, it would be dismissed as 'stunting' - reduced to one-off bombing 'stunts' - as the Continuity IRA was dubbed. From early 1998 the Real IRA was gearing up, preparing to replicate the complete Provisional IRA structure of Army Executive, Army Council, GHQ Staff, commanders, the lot. Potential recruits could be pointed towards the fraught Stormont Castle talks for evidence of ensuing treachery.

"The Troubles"

Republican violence was now dominated by two groups splintered from the mainstream IRA - the Continuity IRA (CIRA) and the Real IRA (RIRA). These groups continued bombing after 1997 in an unpredictable and desultory fashion, but no less deadly for that. Indeed a baleful combination of RIRA and CIRA members was responsible for the biggest casualty toll from a single bomb in the Troubles. At Omagh, on 15 August 1998, twenty-eight civilians and two unborn twins were killed by a 500lb bomb that destroyed the central shopping area of the town.

The IRA, although on ceasefire - which they interpreted as an end to attacks on British soldiers and police and loyalist terrorists - continued to carry out punishment shootings in the district where they exercised control, to kill drug-dealers and to wage an undeclared campaign against members of RIRA, killing and maiming them.

(1) Brendan O'Brien has reported on Northern Ireland as RTÉ's senior current affairs reporter since 1974, and has made three major documentaries about the IRA. He has won many awards for investigative journalism, including European Journalist of the Year 1998 and the Amnesty International Award 2001.

(2) Brian Feeney is an historian, writer and political commentator. He is Head of History at St Mary's University College, Belfast and formerly an SDLP councillor for north Belfast. As such, he experienced first-hand the effects of the Troubles on the lives of those living in Belfast. As a writer, his work has received awards and critical acclaim. He is co-author of Lost Live, the definitive work on all those who died as a result of the Troubles, and he is the author of the best selling Sinn Féinn, A Hundred Turbulent Years. A columnist for the Irish News, Brian is a respected commentator on Northern Irish politics. He lives in Belfast

Extracts from both books about the respective authors, i think they know what they're talking about.

Originally posted by Strangerous
Plus I realy don't think this is WoT thread

Well the term 'War on Terror' does refer to America's campaign against radical fundamentalist terrorists, the forum section with the picture of Richard Reid of course. But you could argue that this broad term does encompass all manners of terrorism, since the Bush administration has stated that they are opposed to all terrorist organisations, including ones such as ETA, IRA, Maoist Rebels etc. The forum sub-header does say "Discuss the "War On Terror and related issues.", so i think it is relevant.

[edit on 26/9/06 by Flyboy211]

Originally posted by Flyboy211


Eh? What are you on about lol.

I criticised your attempt at humour and being witty, when it failed and only served as fluff in between your answer. Which you could have given plainly, without such attempts at sarcasm with "only with pencil supply cut backs" or whatever you said.

I never criticised the amount of time you took to formulate your reply, why would i want to deny someone their right to an opinion? Although with your second reply, you seemed to grasp the idea better, not to put in so much crap.

I'll post as I like thank you - You'd would agree, I hope, that I'm entitled to my view or are you the self-appointed arbiter of what's 'crap'?
Would you prefer to pre-mod all comments to check they meet your high standards?
You did comment on the time of my post - please re-read your response.

Originally posted by Flyboy211
"Whereas many believe" so are you going by what you've heard are have you actually researched the facts?

I hardly think the Real & Continuity break-away movements were engineered by the Official IRA & Provos simply as a ruse so they could achieve their objectives politically, whilst sustaining the armed campaign. I would suggest you do more reading. I.e "Pocket History of The IRA" - Brendan O Brien (1) & "Pocket History of The Troubles" - Brian Feeney (2). Whilst they are only pocket book editions, they do concisely describe the events around the long history of the IRA and troubles.

Let me elaborate :-

"The IRA"

* SNIP *

[edit on 26/9/06 by Flyboy211]

You're quoting from partial sources and giving muderers the credibility of an army - PIRA etc etc is not an army it's a collection of thugs and psychopaths who have used a political cause to justify their campaign of crime, terror and extortion.

Whatever sources you quote you won't shake me and many others from the belief it's all a series of constructs to allow McGuinness/Adams to use the threat of 'you'd better talk with us or we won't be able to reign in the extreme factions of republican terrorism' - an obvious tactic.

Murders all, whatever they chose to title their little band of thugs this week or next.

They should be very grateful we played by the rules and didn't practice the US's model of counter-terrorism on them - otherwise McGuinness /Adams would have paid the price for the evil they have done.

When John Major relaxed the ROE for the SAS PIRA and their apologists were quick to whinge when those lads trying to bomb the police station were dealt with as they deserved.
I'm not aware of any times that PIRA allowed anyone to surrender and yet they expect to claim that priviledge when it suits them.
When the price of being a 'soldier' in PIRA became obvious they deserted in droves.

PIRA didn't chose to lay down arms & talk, they were defeated in the field and offered terms which they accepted.

If PIRA etc were ever an army they'd have fought as one and would have paid the price - instead they prefered to murder children.

Originally posted by Strangerous
I'll post as I like thank you - You'd would agree, I hope, that I'm entitled to my view or are you the self-appointed arbiter of what's 'crap'?
Would you prefer to pre-mod all comments to check they meet your high standards?
You did comment on the time of my post - please re-read your response.

You don't need to repeat yourself twice, once is enough. I don't have a problem with your differing view on the IRA situation, since i'm happy to argue/contend with any differing opinion. What i had a problem with was needless comments such as "Perhaps we should have a section 'The Unfought War on Terror Back When it Was OK to Bomb People'" & "Perhaps if the budget for pencils is cut the 'Real, Real (no Really) IRA". Just state your point without pointless attempts at sarcasm and humour.

You also misunderstood my comment regarding the 'timing' of your post. I said "You could've answered that straight away minus the wittycism". Meaning not that you didn't reply in the next five minutes, rather the interjected fluff i mentioned in between your serious answer.

Originally posted by Strangerous
You're quoting from partial sources and giving muderers the credibility of an army - PIRA etc etc is not an army it's a collection of thugs and psychopaths who have used a political cause to justify their campaign of crime, terror and extortion.

Firstly don't take it up with me, that they chose to refer themselves as an 'army'. It's simply easier to call them the IRA/PIRA/RIRA/CIRA or whatever since it clarifies whom i may be talking about. They saw it fit to declare themselves as the real and official army of a 32 county Ireland, i am by no means a sympathiser or supporter, it's simply a part of their organisation.

In the passages i showed, what indicated that they were partial or biast? There was no personal flavouring in those extracts, they merely described events as they happened. Leaving the reader to make up their own minds.

Originally posted by Strangerous
Whatever sources you quote you won't shake me and many others from the belief it's all a series of constructs to allow McGuinness/Adams to use the threat of 'you'd better talk with us or we won't be able to reign in the extreme factions of republican terrorism' - an obvious tactic.

Others, who are they exactly? It's easy for one to say "me and many others believe that.." to try and bolster an argument. Consider that Adams & McGuiness through Sinn Féinn tried to achieve their aims through the political process rather than through a purely armed campaign. Since they has wised up to the fact that negotiating and compromise may get them somewhere. Indeed what the books highlight is the internal strife that was constantly part of the IRA, which is why various dissidents broke off. I think the claim that Adams-McGuiness orchestrated the creation of these groups is a little extreme, since it would only harm their interests in achieving things more 'peacefully'. Frankly there's not much they can do to 'rein in' the fringe republicans who are committed to having a free Ireland solely through an armed campaign.

If you could corroborate/substantiate your claim somehow, it would be appreciated.

Originally posted by Strangerous
Murders all, whatever they chose to title their little band of thugs this week or next.

They should be very grateful we played by the rules and didn't practice the US's model of counter-terrorism on them - otherwise McGuinness /Adams would have paid the price for the evil they have done.

Well everyone has grown tired of the torrid affair, and any approaches from the Republican side towards peaceful negotiations would be welcomed by a UK government. However you are right in pointing out that Adams & McGuiness are responsible for countless deaths. I think overall 1600-1800 people died by the hands of the PIRA, that includes civilians, British soldiers, police etc.

Originally posted by Strangerous
When John Major relaxed the ROE for the SAS PIRA and their apologists were quick to whinge when those lads trying to bomb the police station were dealt with as they deserved.
I'm not aware of any times that PIRA allowed anyone to surrender and yet they expect to claim that priviledge when it suits them.
When the price of being a 'soldier' in PIRA became obvious they deserted in droves.

I know that desertion and infiltration caused many problems for the IRA over the years since not many were actually 'soldiers'.

Do you know of instances where the SAS engaged the IRA? What happened with the police station scenario?

Originally posted by Strangerous
PIRA didn't chose to lay down arms & talk, they were defeated in the field and offered terms which they accepted.

It should be noted that the IRA still had a considerable quanity of their arms haul from Libya a decade earlier. That decommissioning relied on IRA co-operation and from all accounts, most of their arms have been put out of action.

Originally posted by Strangerous
If PIRA etc were ever an army they'd have fought as one and would have paid the price - instead they prefered to murder children.

Hence why they're a terrorist organisation and we're discussing them on this thread. I've certainly never believed them to be a true army and am glad they have never attacked Wales, although i heard (yes that one again) that they set off a bomb in Newport, South Wales. Because they thought it was part of England. Although i've read that Wales was never 'officially' attacked. Interestingly enough Wales had its own, albeit very brief history with terrorism and paramilitary operations, namely by the FWA. But that's a different topic.

The RIRA has been described as being dis-organised with random attacks and no specific objectives. Like the speit of bombings in London between 2000-2001, believed to have been done by the RIRA. Even the BBC was hit.

My comment was a tilt at the fact that terrorism only started on 11/9/01 and before that it was a 'justified liberation struggle' and it was perfectly acceptable to raise funds for explosive to kill children (at least in some eyes!) as you well know.

Previously the difference between WoT and PIRA etc killings have been debated at length on ATS - do a search

My mistake it was Thatcher not Major who unleased the SAS.

The IRA suffered its worst single loss of men when eight members of its so-called 'East Tyrone brigade' were shot dead by the SAS in a fierce gun battle at Loughgall, Co Armagh on 8 May 1987.

They were killed in a hail of bullets when troops opened fire on them as they launched a bomb and gun attack on the village RUC station.

The IRA men who died were the East Tyrone IRA 'Commander' Patrick Kelly, 32; Declan Arthurs, 21; Seamus Donnelly, 19; Michael Gormley, 25; Eugene Kelly, 25; James Lynagh, 31, Patrick McKearney, 32 and Gerard O'Callaghan, 29.

A civilian, Anthony Hughes, 36, was killed and his brother badly wounded when they were caught up in the crossfire.

The SAS laid a careful ambush after learning of the attack in advance.

A squad of 24 soldiers from the elite regiment, split into six groups, took up position around and inside the part-time police station.

They opened fire from several different directions when the heavily armed IRA unit approached the station with a 200lb bomb, its fuse lit, in the bucket of a hijacked JCB digger.

The firing started as the digger smashed through the gates of the station and the bomb detonated, injuring two RUC men.

The IRA men died, all of head wounds, when the soldiers fired more than 600 bullets.

The IRA men fired 70 shots before they were cut down - no soldiers were hit.

news.bbc.co.uk...

The familes of these 'brave soldiers' later appealed to the European Court and were awarded £10,00 as the attckers' human rights had been breached. One mother even claimed her son was executed as he was only armed with a cigarette lighter but she did admit he was lighting the fuse on the bomb at the time!

I'm not aware of any awards by the ECHR for all those who's lives were terminated by PIRA and its various off-shoots / nommes de guerre.

McGuinness is a known terrorist who has blood on his hands - he knows he can hide behind the fact that the UK Govt doesn't carry out extra judicial executions (US style) or he would have been slotted a long time ago.

Given McGuinness & co's penchant for extreme violence I find it implausible any republicans are using PIRA stocks of explosives without his tacit approval - certainly if PIRA wanted it to stop they have the means and network to do so.

The 'other people' I refer to is those who've served in NI, those maimed and traumatised and the families of those murdered. These people who are intimately involved in the blood price for this struggle would, I suggest, draw little comfort, from the fact that one band have declared a cease-fire yet another band go on killing and one could understand their cynicism regarding the 'it's not us, it's a completely separate bunch' lies.

I'd also point out that the 3600+ dead in this conflict were (with very few exceptions) all British civilians, British policemen and British soldiers - the majority slain by PIRA

If we played by their rules then PIRA would not be in positions of power in NI now. They'd be defeated and buried - where they belong IMO.

Originally posted by Strangerous
My comment was a tilt at the fact that terrorism only started on 11/9/01 and before that it was a 'justified liberation struggle' and it was perfectly acceptable to raise funds for explosive to kill children (at least in some eyes!) as you well know.

I don't agree with that, whilst i don't particularly like the phrase "one man's terrorist, is another man's freedom fighter", it seems to fit in with what happened here (even if its for the extreme minority). The PIRA and subsequently CIRA & RIRA (who are the most active and dangerous) claimed to be fighting for freedom from British rule, even though they did so through engaging in brutal killings, beatings, bombings etc. As to whether they truly represent the wishes of the Catholic and other community members, probably not. However many families have had some affilitiation with one of the IRA organisations, with fathers, sons, brothers, uncles etc all joining up, languishing in prison or supporting the organisations in one form or another.

The Bush administration had actually made the RIRA an illegal terrorist organisation before September 11th 2001. On May 16th 2001 Collin Powell issued a statement decreeing that the RIRA were an illegal organisation. As shown here :-

The US State Department has officially designated the Irish dissident republican group the Real IRA, as a foreign terrorist organisation.

This means the group, which has been blamed for bomb attacks in Northern Ireland - including the 1998 Omagh bombing - and mainland Britain, will have any assets it has in America frozen.

A notice in the Federal Register said Secretary of State Colin Powell made the designation, which took effect on Wednesday.

The sanctions also mean:

* Suspected Real IRA activists denied US visas
* Ban on Americans giving them money or support

The US State Department said it was also designating the 32 County Sovereignty Movement - said to be the Real IRA's political front - and the Irish Republican Prisoners Welfare Association.

It said in a statement: "This action makes it illegal for persons in the United States, or subject to US jurisdiction, to provide material support to the Real IRA or any of its named aliases, requires US financial institutions to block assets of the designated groups and enables us to deny visas to representatives of the group."

news.bbc.co.uk...

Originally posted by Strangerous
Previously the difference between WoT and PIRA etc killings have been debated at length on ATS - do a search

My mistake it was Thatcher not Major who unleased the SAS.

I'll do that search sometime cheers.

As we know, Thatcher was a hardliner, whether with the IRA, Falklands, Soviet Union and so on. The 1982 Embassy siege showed that she he had little time nor patience for terrorists.

Originally posted by Strangerous
The familes of these 'brave soldiers' later appealed to the European Court and were awarded £10,00 as the attckers' human rights had been breached. One mother even claimed her son was executed as he was only armed with a cigarette lighter but she did admit he was lighting the fuse on the bomb at the time!

Thank you for the story link btw, i had never been aware of any shootous between the IRA & SAS. There is a book i want to get, not sure of the author but he was apparently in the SAS and involved in some gun battles.

The story you mentioned reminds me of Operation Flavius and its consequences.

Operation Flavius was the name given to an operation by a Special Air Service team in Gibraltar on 6 March 1988 tasked with neutralising a Provisional IRA cell. Dan McCann, Seán Savage and Mairéad Farrell intended to detonate a bomb prior to the changing of the guard at the governor’s residence.
Proposed site of bomb
Enlarge
Proposed site of bomb

Their plan was to hide the bomb in a car so as to kill the members of the military band assembling for the parade. In order to ensure a parking space in a busy town area, it was necessary to reserve it on the preceding Sunday.

The SAS team was told (incorrectly as it transpired) that the IRA had already placed their bomb and were ready to detonate it. The three were stopped as they walked along the busy main road leading to the Airport and the Spanish frontier. McCann was then shot as the SAS deemed he made an 'aggressive move' towards a bag he was carrying. They had presumed he was intending to trigger a car bomb using a remote control device. After McCann was killed, Farrell made a move towards her handbag and was therefore killed on similar grounds. Faced with arrest, Savage moved his hand to his pocket. The SAS therefore killed him also. In all, McCann was shot five times, Farrell eight times, and Savage between 16 and 18 times. All three were subsequently found to be unarmed, and without any kind of remote trigger. However ingredients for a bomb, including 64 Kilos of Semtex, were later found in a car in Spain, identified by keys found in Farrell's handbag.

en.wikipedia.org...

And this interestingly :-

An inquest was held, in which an Irish radio expert disputed whether a remote controlled explosive device was technologically feasible, casting doubt on the justification given. The car bomb found in Marbella was a conventional timer controlled device. An article after the inquest in the respected publication 'Wireless World' proved mathematically that it was possible. The jury at the inquest returned a verdict of lawful killing by a 9-2 majority.

....In 1995 the European Court of Justice ruled that the British government had sanctioned excess force and breached the European Convention on Human Rights. However, it also ruled that the three had been engaged in an act of terrorism, and consequently dismissed unanimously the applicants’ claims for damages, for costs and expenses incurred in the Gibraltar Inquest and the remainder of the claims for just satisfaction.

Seems to smack of irony considering the trio were on a mission to discriminately kill and maim and were thus prevented from doing so, yet the SAS still got criticised for it. Especially considering that one of the SAS soldiers Scott Graham was the lover of the female bomber, and managed to put duty in front of personal feelings.


[edit on 27/9/06 by Flyboy211]

Originally posted by Strangerous
I'm not aware of any awards by the ECHR for all those who's lives were terminated by PIRA and its various off-shoots / nommes de guerre.

I still stand by that PIRA is completely seperate from RIRA & CIRA, that there was a genuine split within the movement, representing those that were willing to compromise and halt the armed campaign, and others who wish to carry on through fighting. I'm not justifying or seperating the 'good' from the 'bad', just describing how i genuinely feel things have turned out. The history of the IRA is a tumultous one, with splits occurring from the beginning with the likes of Collins & DeValera through to the present day.

Originally posted by Strangerous
McGuinness is a known terrorist who has blood on his hands - he knows he can hide behind the fact that the UK Govt doesn't carry out extra judicial executions (US style) or he would have been slotted a long time ago.

It does seem extraordinary or even 'outrageous' to some that former (some may dispute that) terrorists such as Adams & McGuiness are now in positions of power. That for a peaceful Ireland to exist, each member must be respresented, even ones who have committed acts of terrorism, to which the loyalist & unionist aren't exactly innocent from.

Originally posted by Strangerous
Given McGuinness & co's penchant for extreme violence I find it implausible any republicans are using PIRA stocks of explosives without his tacit approval - certainly if PIRA wanted it to stop they have the means and network to do so.

Well that statement is based upon the presumption that PIRA collaborates and supplies the other organisations, which i don't believe, but obviously you're entitled to that belief. However with all the infighting that's gone on, with even IRA fighting RIRA or vowing to fight them too, i'd deem it highly unlikely that any collusion exists. As for how the RIRA & CIRA get arms, who knows. When the senior members such as the 'chief of engineering' and others left to form the RIRA, it's reasonable to assume they took some of the weapon caches with them. Or through prior contacts were able to establish new supply chains. I doubt RIRA would still be around today if it hadn't been able to secure its own supply of weapons and ammunition.

I've also come across these bits of information :-

"real" Irish Republican Army (rIRA)
synonyms: Óglaigh na hÉireann; "dissident" Irish Republican Army (dIRA)
This Republican Paramilitary group was formed in November 1997 from dissident members of the Irish Republican Army (IRA). These former members of the IRA were opposed to the 'peace process' and the political leadership of Sinn Féin. The rIRA was believed to include a former 'quartermaster-general' of the IRA and a former 'head of engineering'. There was speculation over the following months that many members of the 'engineering' section of the IRA left to join the rIRA. Membership of the organisation was initially put at between 100 and 200 people. Most of the support for the rIRA was initially in the Dundalk and Newry area with some support in Dublin. It is believed to have political links with the Thirty-Two County Sovereignty Committee. The "real" IRA is also believed to have close links with the Continuity Irish Republican Army (CIRA). The rIRA is believed to have access to some of the equipment that belonged to the IRA.

On 18 August 1998 the "real" IRA announced a suspension of its activities. However, the organisation subsequently reverted to violence with occasional attacks in Northern Ireland and in England. The rIRA may have been responsible for the bomb in London on 4 March 2001.
Membership: Membership is probably numbered in the dozens. When the rIRA called its ceasefire in 1998 it is believed that some members joined the CIRA.
Arsenal: The rIRA is believed to be in the possession of some weapons that were taken from IRA dumps. The rIRA probably has access to a few dozen rifles, machine guns, and pistols; a small amount of Semtex (commercial high explosive); and a small number of detonators.
(See Also: "Real" Irish Republican Army (rIRA) Statement, 28 January 2003.)

cain.ulst.ac.uk...

Here's some of the statement referred to in the last article :-

'Real' Irish Republican Army (rIRA) Statement, 28 January 2003

The following page contains a set of questions that were posed to a representative of the 'real' Irish Republican Army (rIRA; Óglaigh na hÉireann) and the written responses. The 16 questions were written by Damien Okado-Gough in his capacity as a reporter for the Derry-based Channel 9 TV news. The written reply was received on Tuesday 28 January 2003. Information about the exchange, and extracts from some of the written answers, was featured in the local media. However, the following page contains the full text of the questions and answers.

Question 1. The Provisional IRA recently claimed that the ‘real’ IRA can "articulate no coherent strategy", (An Phoblacht / Republican News, Sept 12, 2002). In light of this claim would you outline, in definitive form, your political objectives and your political and military strategies for achieving those objectives?

Answer 1a. Our ultimate objective remains the re-establishment of the Republic. The Belfast Agreement has been presented by the Provisional Movement as a transitional mechanism, or stepping stone, to eventual Irish unity and a 32-County Republic. We totally reject this claim and regard this Agreement as a negation of Irish democracy as it was build upon the premise of separate referenda. Remember the Six-County referendum had the power of veto over the 26-County one. We regard this as a copper fastening of partition and an acceptance of the Unionist veto by all participants. In addition, it is quite evident that the political administration that emerged in the Six-Counties after the Agreement represented nothing more than the institutionalization of sectarianism as both sides of the sectarian divide vied with each other for the crumbs from the Westminster table, European Union gravy train and corporate America.

cain.ulst.ac.uk...

Cont....

Originally posted by Strangerous
The 'other people' I refer to is those who've served in NI, those maimed and traumatised and the families of those murdered. These people who are intimately involved in the blood price for this struggle would, I suggest, draw little comfort, from the fact that one band have declared a cease-fire yet another band go on killing and one could understand their cynicism regarding the 'it's not us, it's a completely separate bunch' lies.

I can completely understand the cynicism and distrust of those affected by the attacks, towards whatever claim the PIRA makes about not having anything to with the other groups. However you must bare in mind it is only that, cynicism & distrust. Considering all that has gone on, it's not suprising that whatever the PIRA say, the affected people will not believe or only take with a pinch of salt. You only need to look at the entirety of the republican movement's history, especially the various splinters from the original IRA. All of the various fracturing has happened from the days of Collins and De Valera.

You should give this a listen too :-

www.bbc.co.uk...

Originally posted by Strangerous
I'd also point out that the 3600+ dead in this conflict were (with very few exceptions) all British civilians, British policemen and British soldiers - the majority slain by PIRA

I came across this :-



Which i suspect is where you got your figure estimation?

It doesn't explicitly label the civilian deaths as 'British', but obviously living in Northern Ireland it qualifies them as 'British'. Yes the majority have been killed/maimed by PIRA. Although PIRA has been established since 1969 and had a lot longer time, not mention being involved in the key points of struggle within the last 30 years. CIRA came about in 1986, although didn't come to prominence until 1996. With RIRA forming in 1997 and seems to be the most active 'component' of republicanism, who have been responsible for the attacks in Northern Ireland & England between 2000-2001.

Originally posted by Strangerous
If we played by their rules then PIRA would not be in positions of power in NI now. They'd be defeated and buried - where they belong IMO.

Well yes if the British government had been more aggressive and uncompromising they could have wiped them out. Although such extreme measures like internment in the 70's did not help. However the IRA did adapt from 1979 onwards by adapting a 'cell structure' which made it harder to be infiltrated by informers.

Although it looks like RIRA is still committed to an armed campaign in one form or another, as shown here :-

Real IRA admits city bomb attacks

The dissident republican Real IRA has claimed responsibility for the firebomb attacks on stores in Newry this week.

Firebombs destroyed JJB Sports and CarpetRight stores in the town whilst a TK Maxx store and MFI outlet were among those badly damaged on Wednesday.

Meanwhile, the cross-border railway line between Newry and Dundalk has been closed while police carry out a search.

It follows the Real IRA's warning in its statement that there may be unexploded devices on the line.

The firebomb attacks earlier this week are estimated to have caused damage worth hundreds of thousands of pounds.

Newry's SDLP mayor Michael Carr said: "The Real IRA should examine their motives.

"Their cause is not a blow for Ireland, but a blow against their own communities."

Mr Carr added that the businesses which had been targeted would be given every support, including an effort to have them temporarily re-located.

news.bbc.co.uk...

So i guess it's not over yet. Who knows if a renewed campaign may happen on the British mainland. Considering they issued that statement back in 2003, and were responsible for the attack last month, it seems they are not dismayed by the events of 9/11. They could do it and the blame would be shifted towards 'Islamic extremists' rather than RIRA. Although that would shift the publicity away from them. Uncertain times indeed.

[edit on 27/9/06 by Flyboy211]

FREE FREE IRELAND!!!!

NEVER GIVE UP, NEVER SURRENDER!

Originally posted by Syrian Sister
FREE FREE IRELAND!!!!

NEVER GIVE UP, NEVER SURRENDER!

I suspect your not from here I'll refrain from saying what I'm tempted to. The fact is the IRA were beaten and couldnt continue the losses were unsustainable and their actions cowardly.

Theres nothing noble about shooting people dead in maternity wards and planting bombs in shopping districts which the IRA have done.

Originally posted by Teknikal

Originally posted by Syrian Sister
FREE FREE IRELAND!!!!

NEVER GIVE UP, NEVER SURRENDER!

I suspect your not from here I'll refrain from saying what I'm tempted to. The fact is the IRA were beaten and couldnt continue the losses were unsustainable and their actions cowardly.

Theres nothing noble about shooting people dead in maternity wards and planting bombs in shopping districts which the IRA have done.

Well the CIRA & RIRA are still active and have vowed to carry on the struggle. The PIRA or the 'IRA' as we know it has permanently halted their armed campaign. Supposedly pursuing their goals, purely through political channels with Sinn Féinn.

IRA shooting people in maternity wards? Can you provide any links?

No I cant provide links but I have my memory and I live here I know for a fact it happened the media had a bad habit of leaving stuff like that out although I'm sure it could be found in Belfast Telegraph archives. I have nothing against catholics in general I get on with a lot of them fine but I have little tolerance about IRA supporters.

Let them continue their struggle as long as there people born here they want things as they are, even a lot of catholics I talk to and get on with fine admit they wouldnt want a United Ireland it would be a bad move for the country as a whole. Power sharing is probably the best solution but dreams of a United Ireland will never happen.

The IRA of today are drug dealers and crimelords same with the loyalist side to though niether are going to give that up to start again theres to much money in it.

Typical, whether its rira, cira,pira its the same thing.

This is why this thing has gone on for so long people get bogged down in stupid arguments about nonsense!

Im in Ireland and I for one dont see any point in uniting the two, the two have existed side by side for so long now and particularly since good friday agreement. both are doing well unprecedented growth both north and south, low unemployment, etc.

There really is no benefit in uniting the two what would the south do with the no good single issue northern politicians and what would the north do with southern politicians who really dont know whats going on on the ground in the north?

Excuse my forum name by the way its the only thing I could think of when under pressure to provide one everything else I could think of was already taken.

I live in N.Ireland and I can say that the problems here haven't been about politics since the early seventies. It's gangsters using political messages as an excuse. Some politicians do beleive in what they're doing though. Gerry Adams is an example, even though I don't agree with his viewpoint.

Ireland maybe united in the future, but at the moment the south couldn't afford to have 1.5 million people added to their economy. Besides roughly about 1 million of them want to remain British. It would take a LOT of finance and pursuasion to make the transition.

Personally I don't care if the flag's red white and blue, green white and gold or purple with pink dots. But then I'm just a normal person, not one of the political elite.