Whats the deal with suicide?

I have known many people over the years who sadly have commited suicide. Some are close friends others I just knew to say hello in the street, but all very deeply missed! None of them in my opinion took thier life for a good reason. Most took it because of women problems, others mental problems.

What I would like to know is, are they now doomed to hell as I was told as a kid in religion classes at school, or, was that just a ploy to frighten youngsters who may consider the option later in life?

I read a book once (cannot remember the name of it), which interviewed a women who had could talk to the dead and she asked what the other side was like. The spirit replied that the other side contained everyone, including Hitler! It was a serious book by the way.

It stated that murderers where there, everyone!! That everyone lived in thier favorite house, with thier favorite pets and relatives who had gone before.

I hope this is true as I would like to see some of them friends again.

Now I know no-one can defo answer this question, but some opinions are valued too!



McP

My personal opinion doesn't mean that you should believe in it, but for what it is worth I will say what I believe.

I really feel that no one is truly condemned forever but that whatever we do is something we must deal with now or later, and that in the end everyone makes the same conclusion about any transgressions they may have done and we all wind up back in a perfect state again, in whatever form we feel is our little Nirvana.

Within my own self I have come to that conclusion while I am here on the planet and count it as a victory for me that I have overcome the dark side of my own nature by comparing it to everything I was born to know as being evil, even a dude like Hitler.

So with this, I say I believe that the conclusions of that book you read is on the mark.

Another addition to that idea is to study websites that describe Near Death Experiences, for a lot of them have testimonies of people who died and came back to tell their stories, especially the ones who attempted suicide. By their own admissions, they describe that their actions were sometimes frowned upon and sometimes not, but either way was the promise of salvation through a world based on the idealogy of love. They came back and perhaps hadn't overcome the reasoning behind their suicides, but they were given a gift, a promise, that made a profound difference in their lives not that there acts were wrong, but one of the underpinnings of love that exists in the framework of the heavens and the world, but we are blind to see.

Good topic, BTW.

[edit on 24-9-2006 by ben91069]

Originally posted by ben91069
I really feel that no one is truly condemned forever but that whatever we do is something we must deal with now or later, and that in the end everyone makes the same conclusion about any transgressions they may have done and we all wind up back in a perfect state again, in whatever form we feel is our little Nirvana.
[edit on 24-9-2006 by ben91069]

Same here.

Suicide is a very peculiar subject. I thought about killing myself many times when I was facing depression, it comes to your mind like any other thought, begin small and slowly gets bigger.

I guess the real point isn't what they've done, the reasons, etc. What takes you to commit suicide it's something bigger than you, like your childhood monsters that you avoid to face because you're too scarred.
It's hard to understand when you have no notions about it. It's like when you wake up with that good feeling of being recharged and a spark of bad energy strikes you. It keeps growing during the day until you can't handle it.

And to finish this endless pain, what's the easiest solution?
You know the answer.

Tunin,

THanks for sharing that. I mentioned it once before on here somewhere, but I made my own attempt at suicide once, but not due to depression or maybe it was but I find it was more classified as a delusional episode. Either way, it was still an attempt to resolve an issue I had.

I can understand the depression reasoning to lead one to finding a way out, so I don't condemn the suicidal. It is obvious that there are many situations that are totally without a cure but to live with it and deal with it or find a solution. To me, the suicidal execute the solution so far as how it affects them no different than finding a cause to feed yourself when you are hungry or use the bathroom if you have to go. Of course no one tells you to not do those things, because they might have a negative effect on someone else and if it did, it would not stop the sincere anyway.

Either way, I find no condemnation in a person who gives up, but the utmost sincerity and humility.

Originally posted by Mcphisto
I have known many people over the years who sadly have commited suicide. Some are close friends others I just knew to say hello in the street, but all very deeply missed! None of them in my opinion took thier life for a good reason. Most took it because of women problems, others mental problems.

What I would like to know is, are they now doomed to hell as I was told as a kid in religion classes at school, or, was that just a ploy to frighten youngsters who may consider the option later in life?

I read a book once (cannot remember the name of it), which interviewed a women who had could talk to the dead and she asked what the other side was like. The spirit replied that the other side contained everyone, including Hitler! It was a serious book by the way.

It stated that murderers where there, everyone!! That everyone lived in thier favorite house, with thier favorite pets and relatives who had gone before.

I hope this is true as I would like to see some of them friends again.

Now I know no-one can defo answer this question, but some opinions are valued too!



McP

First, no one can say that another is in hell right now for hell is now closed for business. The dead, those who die in an unbelieving state, are dead. In a sense you could say they "sleep". They will be raised later for judgment.....and God alone is the final Judge and He shall judge them Righteously.

Second, no one can talk to the dead. Think about it......EVERY single ignorant psychic who claims to be able to talk with the dead ALWAYS gives a positive reading about a dead person.

"Oh they are in peace!"

"I see your mother, she is well, ....she's OK...her hand is on your shoulder now and she loves you!"

"Your daughter is in rest now. She is now an angel with God...I see her in all her angelic glory!!"

These pinheads tell people what they want to hear. No one wants to hear that their loved one is in turmoil, that they are awaiting judgment by a Holy God and it doesn't look good for them. Would you buy a book or pay big bucks for their seminar if they told people their loved one is lost, there's no hope for them?? Of course not.

I think it maybe depends on the situation. I'm no expert on the subject, but I would guess that many people who have committed suicide had some sort of mental problems, like depression or schizophrenia or something of that nature, that may have been a factor. I'd like to think that these sort of people aren't going to burn in hell, because they weren't fully aware of what they were doing at the time. As for those who take their own lives knowing full well what they do, I'm not really sure one way or the other, but at least by most religions definitions, the person has committed murder (themselves) and as such is likely in dire straits in the afterlife, but whether that is actually true or not, who knows?

I only ever knew one guy personally who committed suicide, and I don't really know the reasons, since it happened after I lost contact with him; I heard it from someone else who also knew him. It happened while we were in high school, about 16 or 17 years old, I think. My guess is that he did it because he had always been fairly unpopular at school, and was always getting teased and that sort of thing. He also struggled with schoolwork because of a learning disability. I felt really bad about it after because, while I never teased the guy or anything like that, I probably could have been a better friend to him, and I used to wonder if I could have made the difference to help him decide life was worth living.

Anyway, I have no idea if I really answered your question or not, I just put down what your posts made me think of. Hope it helped somehow.

Mcphisto and for all who have lost loved ones from suicide: my prayers and condolences.

I will take a few excerpts out of the "Catechism of the Catholic Church" (Published in 1994): "Suicide is seriously contrary to justice, hope, and charity. It is forbidden by the fifth commandment."

"Everyone is responsible for his life before God who has given it to him. It is God who remains the sovereign Master of life. We are obliged to accept life gratefully and preserve it for his honor and the salvation of our souls. We are stewards, not owners, of the life God has entrusted to us. It is not ours to dispose of."

"Suicide contradicts the natural inclination of the human being to preserve and perpetuate his life. It is gravely contrary to the just love of self. It likewise offends love of neighbor because it unjustly breaks the ties of solidarity with family, nation, and other human societies to which we continue to have obligations. Suicide is contrary to love for the living God."

I imagine Protestant religions have similar decrees but I am not sure. What do the Protestant religions think of the subject of suicide?

To Mcphisto and others who had loved ones commit suicide, again best wishes, and to the ones contemplating suicide, my best prayers.

This is a subject that I have had to face after losing my brother this year to suicide. I will not go into the details of the circumstances that were brought on him, but I will say that because I understand this, I have confidence toward God that He will judge righteously and in accordance with His word. He was in more pain than he could bear, and squeezing a trigger only took a split second. I'm glad that the destiny of his soul will be determined by a Holy God, rather than by the catechism of the Catholic church. Although it was devastating, and at times still is, I have not been angry with my brother. I would do anything if I could turn the clock back and change what happened, but I can't. I hope to see my brother again, and when I do, he will know that I love him and forgave him. Not only that, but that I understood.

This is not a matter of what I want to believe. I've had to seek this out from the standpoint of truth for my own sake. Scripture has to be taken as a whole and in context, so I'll address this from a completely Biblical perspective.

UnrealZA is correct about our state after death. There are many passages in the Bible that show we simply await resurrection. Our souls, like the body, is in a state similar to sleep. It does not drift or wonder, and it doesn't enter heaven or hell (or to the non existent pergutory - contrary to the inventions of the Catholic church) until the time appointed.

Greattech... thank you for your kind words and condolences. In regard to your position and quote from the Catechism, it should be noted here that the Catholic church has a history of banning the possession of Bibles, and has (I could insert many quotes here) as an institution placed it's edicts above the Bible. It routinely changes the truth of God into lies (Romans 1:25; 2 Timothy 4:3) and teaches for doctrine the commandments of men (Matthew 15:9). It also changed times and laws (Daniel 7:25) speaking of murder, she murdered the fourth commandment. In relation to the RCC, I'm a bit surprised that you would want to go into the subject of murder. In regard to the commandments of God, the flamboyent institution deleted the second commandment to justify her idolatry, then made the tenth into two. Your Catholic Bible has been altered. This relates to the subject of this thread quite well in terms of eternity, as you might want to read Revelation Chapter 22 regarding the final judgement of those who add and subtract from the Word. On this issue, scripture is in fact very clear.

There are seven suicides and one attempted suicide reported in the Bible.

Abimelech (Judges 9:54), ordered his armor-bearer to slay him while dying of a skull fracture during a seige, in order to avoid the ignominy of having been seen to have been killed by a woman.

Samson (Judges 16:26-31) blinded after his capture killed himself to avoid being further humiliated and "made sport of" by the Philistines, taking his tormentors with him. Samson's act of Faith earned him a place among the saints of Christianity (Hebrews, 11:32).

Saul (1 Samuel 31: 3-6), asked his armor-bearer to kill him while wounded and defeated in battle with the Philistines. When he was afraid to do it, Saul fell on his own sword. The armor-bearer subsequently did likewise.

Achitopel (2 Samuel 17:1, 23) plotted to overthrow David, then when his plan failed, he put his household in order and hanged himself. He was buried in his father's sepulchre.

Zimri (1 Kings 16:18) usurped the throne of Israel then burned down the palace around himself when his plan failed.

Judas Iscariot (Matthew 27:4-5) hung himself after betraying Jesus. This is generally presented as an appropriate act of remorse.

The Jailer at Philippi (Acts 16:26-29), under the mistaken impression that all his prisoners had escaped during an earthquake, thought that his career and life were in jeopardy and prepared to fall on his sword. Paul stopped him, not arguing that suicide was wrong, but merely that the jailer was acting under a misapprehension.

Not advocating suicide, but according to the Word, under certain circumstances and as shown above (particularly the case of Samson which is the clearest, as he is mentioned again in the book of Hebrews) - one who commits suicide can be saved.

Personally I do not believe in a hell. I believe that the spirit of God will cleanse the souls every man, woman and child when the "judgment" comes. However, if one wants to think that there is an "unforgivable" sin, it is, at least in my estimation, suicide.

Why would God, other than for the fact that he is loving and forgiving, grant eternal life to someone who didn't appreciate it to begin with? This is the angle that "hell fire and brimstone" believers argue from. While I certainly do not believe in the doctrine of eternal damnation, I can see their stance on suicide.

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
Personally I do not believe in a hell. I believe that the spirit of God will cleanse the souls every man, woman and child when the "judgment" comes. However, if one wants to think that there is an "unforgivable" sin, it is, at least in my estimation, suicide.

Why would God, other than for the fact that he is loving and forgiving, grant eternal life to someone who didn't appreciate it to begin with? This is the angle that "hell fire and brimstone" believers argue from. While I certainly do not believe in the doctrine of eternal damnation, I can see their stance on suicide.

That would be an oxymoron, contradictory, yet God is a Non-contradictory being. God calls it "Judgment" for a reason. If it was not a judgment then it would be called something like "Passage". It is to judge all those outside of Christ. They are not judged for entrance into heaven but rather their judgment is based on their "works" and their works are found to be severely insufficient for none of their works could make them perfect and God, because He is Holy and Perfect, demands perfection. These then, who partake in the Second Resurrection, are cast into outer darkness with the beast, anti-christ and Lucifer. Death and the grave are also cast away.

There are no clerical errors in Heaven, therefore no one will be in heaven by mistake and vice-versa for hell.

The unpardonable sin , based on Scripture, has nothing to do with suicide but rather it is to die in a state of rejection, the rejection of Christ whom the Holy Spirit is a witness of. This is what Jesus meant by, "You shall die in your sin". All mankind is guilty of one sin, the sin of unbelief and if one dies in that state they have thus comitted the unpardonable sin for they will not be forgiven in this life (while alive) nor the next for they are dead and nothing can save them now.

Originally posted by UnrealZA


That would be an oxymoron, contradictory, yet God is a Non-contradictory being. God calls it "Judgment" for a reason. If it was not a judgment then it would be called something like "Passage". It is to judge all those outside of Christ. They are not judged for entrance into heaven but rather their judgment is based on their "works" and their works are found to be severely insufficient for none of their works could make them perfect and God, because He is Holy and Perfect, demands perfection. These then, who partake in the Second Resurrection, are cast into outer darkness with the beast, anti-christ and Lucifer. Death and the grave are also cast away.

Then everyone will go to the outer darkness because no one is perfect and does not even have the possibility of being so in one lifetime. You can't have it both ways.


[edit on 25-9-2006 by SpeakerofTruth]

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth

Originally posted by UnrealZA


That would be an oxymoron, contradictory, yet God is a Non-contradictory being. God calls it "Judgment" for a reason. If it was not a judgment then it would be called something like "Passage". It is to judge all those outside of Christ. They are not judged for entrance into heaven but rather their judgment is based on their "works" and their works are found to be severely insufficient for none of their works could make them perfect and God, because He is Holy and Perfect, demands perfection. These then, who partake in the Second Resurrection, are cast into outer darkness with the beast, anti-christ and Lucifer. Death and the grave are also cast away.

Then everyone will go to the outer darkness because no one is perfect and does not even have the possibility of being so in one lifetime. You can't have it both ways.


[edit on 25-9-2006 by SpeakerofTruth]

Yes, you're correct in that. All people are destined to hell because none are perfect, none are righteous and none are holy.

This is the whole reason why Christ died. Christ, the Perfect, died for the elect, whom are imperfect. Please allow me to use here an analogy.

A man is before a judge. The judge is to sentance him to death for his crimes and just as he does the mans laywer stands up and states that he will stand in for this mans judgment. The lawyer will take the punishment and the judge accepts.

Now all analogies fall short when describing God but of course the judge is God, the Righteous and Perfect God. The man on trial is all of mankind and the lawyer is Christ Jesus, who in Scripture is called "our Advocate". In a nutshell, Jesus stands before the unrighteous sinner, between the sinner and God the Judge, and Jesus proclaims that this sinner is His. God then sees only the Righteousness of Christ, God the Son, and not the unrighteousness of the sinner.

The Believer is then made Righteous by Christ before God in a "positional" stance yet in an everyday practical sense the Believer is still a sinner for no one human can be Holy and Righteous. This is why Scripture calls Jesus our Blessed Hope.

Originally posted by Threadofhope
This is a subject that I have had to face after losing my brother this year to suicide. I will not go into the details of the circumstances that were brought on him, but I will say that because I understand this, I have confidence toward God that He will judge righteously and in accordance with His word.

This I also believe strongly. If you mind is in such a state to commit suicide, God will understand. One of my friends really lost it. God loves us no matter what!