conspiracy surrounding Islam

Originally posted by Freedom_for_sum
This is saying they are brethren in religion ONLY if they comply with the requirements of Islam repent by Islam, worship in acordance with Islam and pay the Jizya tax (pay the poor due).

They don't have to worship in accordance with islam. Even pagan groups, let alone christians, zoroastrians, and jews, have been able to co-exist with muslims in muslim run regions. In christian run regions, the christians exterminate everyone.

Uh huh....by their lord. And as long as they were in line with the Prophet all was well.

The line is saying that Allah,the god that mohammed was the prophet for, is the one and only god, and that this god understands that people might be ignorant of his existence, but as long as they worship a supreme creator of the universe and recognize that there is going to be an apocalypse, they are not doomed to hell. This is a theological statement, it doesn't mean that non-muslims are inferior and can be murdered. And it means that there are mutliple ways to salvation, only that the best one, the one most recently and perfectly revealed by god, was revealed through mohamed and is islam.

Yep. This si the part where the Jews are considered to have turned into apes.

What is the point here? Muslim ruled lands have lots of jews in them, they haven't sought to actively exterminate them, unlike in christendom.

5-51. O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.

OH MY GOD ISLAM RECOMMENDS NOT BEING GOOD FRIENDS WITH NON-MUSLIMS! KILL THAT EVIL RELIGION BEFORE IT DESTROYS US ALL!!!!!

You can answer all the questions you like until you are blue in the face.

Thats kinda the point of a discussion group, you know, to have a discussion?

You, as a "moderate" Muslim, should be writing letters to the editor of as many in the media you can to denounce the actions of "extremists"

Who the heck are you to tell anyone else what to do? You shouldn't be spreading hate on the internet and disdaining of reasonable discussion. Instead of puutting up texts to try to make all muslims into devils, why aren't you helping the moderates by drawing attention to them?

g60kg
The only thing that gives Islam a bad name is the fundamentalists and the extremists having said that I think the general Muslim people then get brainwashed far too easily and start doing silly things like burning american flags etc...

Indeed, islam can be a peaceable and civilized religion, just like any other religion. And it can be used to commit atrocities, just like any other religion. That means that we can't address the problem by attacking the religion, but rather by attacking the extremists.

marid audran
The difference between life of brian and danish cartoons is that I don't recall catholics around the world rioting and killing people over it.

Indeed. And there are lots of muslims that aren't rioting and kiling people over it. With around 1.6 billion muslims in the world, the vast majority of them aren't rioting and killilng. The muslim world was once the height of civilization, and today, its more like europe in the dark ages. Just as christians insist that all that is in the past, people have to recognize that the violence in the muslim world today is just as temporal.

Surely you can't honestly believe this?

Again, look at how many religions exist in the middle east, compared to europe. In europe we have christainity, and thats about it. Some recent muslim immigrants, and some small enclaves of jews that managed to survive the inquisition and the holocaust. In the regions that islam ruled over, there are hindus, zoroastrians, yezidi, manichians, druze, jews, samaritans, and, ironically, a wider array of different christian sects than in europe (there are roman catholics, greek orthodox, protestants, syrian rite christians, assyrian christians, coptic christians, and a variety of other pre-schismatic churches).Further, the theology of islam notes that non-muslims can be saved, and the religious laws of islam set out protections for non-muslims. Calling it anti-other religions is nonsense. Is bin ladin part of the ecumenical movment, clearly not, the man is a bigoted moron, but islam, as a religion, is accepting of other religions, and without it, with a christianity like that of medeval europe ruling over the middle east, the history of the region would be more bloody.

hindu kush

This is entirely irrelevant, and as the page you cite itself notes, most hindus consider the mountains to have that name because they are physically dangerous, not because they are filled with 'evil muslims'. But this is irrelevant, everyone knows that muslims have commited atrocities against other religions. Islam, like every other religion, has the pages of its holy book soaked in human blood. Islam, however, is hardly the most virulent anti-other religion religion out there, that mantle pretty clearly goes to christianity, which has completely exterminated the traditional religions of its major domain, europe, and, after that, spent the rest of its time killing members of other christian sects. Within the domain of Islam, we have religions that have survived from even the pre-christian era.

and were we in the dark ages I would be pointing to christianity as the threat and the new world order. However, the simple fact is that we do not. Show me any faith that christianity has wiped out in the last 15 years. Tell me of any acts of violence incited by christians in that same time. Tell me of acts of violence and suppression.

The dominance is not now being profferred by christianity - speech and murder are not being incited by priests at the pulpits or in bible study classes. The contemporary fact of the matter is that it is a largely islamic agenda that is being pushed.

Originally posted by Marid Audran
and were we in the dark ages I would be pointing to christianity as the threat and the new world order. However, the simple fact is that we do not. Show me any faith that christianity has wiped out in the last 15 years.

And what faith has islam wiped out in the past 15 years???

Tell me of any acts of violence incited by christians in that same time.

Besides all the wars that christians, especially leaders of nations emphasising that christianity is what they use as a guide in their lives, there have been other acts of violence. The bombing of abortion clinics, the mobbing and beating of muslims and sihks in retaliation for 911, acts of terrorism by the KKK, a thoroughly christian movement, along with the other terrorist Christian Identity groups, protests demanding that blasphemous art exhibits be supressed, not to mention the entire 'culture war' between christian zealots and secularists in the US, or criminal actions of polygamist cults, shoot-outs with the branch davidians, etc etc.

speech and murder are not being incited by priests at the pulpits or in bible study classes.

Perhaps you haven't been looking at the right pulpits.

The contemporary fact of the matter is that it is a largely islamic agenda that is being pushed.

Islam is not as good a candidate for a NWO as christianity. The precursors to the NWO, like the League of Nations for example, was spawned largely by the internationalistic pacifistic christian inclinations of Woodrow Wilson. What similar worldwide authority have the muslims created? And, again, Islam, being a propagandistic religion (iow one seeking converts) is trying ot convert everyone, just like the other propagandistic religions (liek christianity and buddhism). But only islam, amoung the propagandistic religions, is saying that you don't need to be a muslim to get salvation, whereas the christians insist that non christians are permanently tortured in hell. Clearly, there is, at the very least, violence in both religions, and clearly, historically, christianity has been responsible for the greatest portion of the violence, from exerminating pagans in europe, to killing natives in the new world, to global wars fought by christian leaders in modern times.

Whew. Well I am glad to know that I have nothing to worry about from Muslims. I was starting to be a bit concerned.

I am curious why any time anyone tries to examine Islam and contemporary extremist issues the discussion is always redirected back to Christianity. This is what I spoke about in my first post. The fact that we aren't even allowed to discuss the potential.

Thanks for proving my point.

Marid, you're on to something, even if I'm not sure if Islam ties in to the NWO. This is a common defense that takes place in all venues about all topics; when the subject in question cannot be argued, turn it around and obfuscate.

A similar topic came up a while back, and I happen to own a Quran so I was able to fight fire with fire, so to speak. Strangely, the thread became inactive after I quoted some of the more extreme parts of the Quran.

Violence is in the Bible, sure, but Christians are not actively called to make war. On the flip side, war is instructed in the Quran. Of course, to be fair, not all Muslims want to make war, but they all read from the Quran.

Nydgan, you're entitled to your opinion, but before pouncing you should recognize that moderate Muslims, if they are concerned about their international reputation, should take a stand and find a venue in which to denounce extremism. It's not the rest of the world's responsibility to clear the Islamic air.

Originally posted by Marid Audran
Whew. Well I am glad to know that I have nothing to worry about from Muslims. I was starting to be a bit concerned.

I am curious why any time anyone tries to examine Islam and contemporary extremist issues the discussion is always redirected back to Christianity. This is what I spoke about in my first post. The fact that we aren't even allowed to discuss the potential.

Thanks for proving my point.

Most of the time, the ones who condem Islam are Christians who themselves have similar passages in the Bible. The reason for this issue going back to Christianity is also largly in part that it's the largest faith in the world, and that much of the world's population follows the Bible. I don't mind anyone critiquing my faith. Islam is open to questioning the faith, even from other Muslims. What I wont stand for however, if it's misquoted and lied about, as you've seen some people do on here by copying and pasting what they find in anti-Islamic sites.

Originally posted by Astygia
Violence is in the Bible, sure, but Christians are not actively called to make war. On the flip side, war is instructed in the Quran. Of course, to be fair, not all Muslims want to make war, but they all read from the Quran.

If you still have your Quran, I would like to ask you to a theological debate.

Nydgan, you're entitled to your opinion, but before pouncing you should recognize that moderate Muslims, if they are concerned about their international reputation, should take a stand and find a venue in which to denounce extremism. It's not the rest of the world's responsibility to clear the Islamic air.

We do. Just this day alone, I've replied to this similar belief - "Why don't moderates condemn the attacks and the terrorists who hijack their faith?" about 5 times. The problem is that there are vast amounts of Muslims who do condemn the attacks, but the media will tend to focus on only the violence. They do it for ratings, and I don't see many allowing Muslim Imams and scholars to speak against the attacks.

[edit on 19-9-2006 by DJMessiah]

DJMessiah, your posting style is quite polite and straightforward, I'd enjoy a debate with you. I am by no means what you might consider Christian though; I just say what I know.

As to moderates getting their message across, I wasn't singling you out personally.

We all knew there would be one really big bump in the road to peace, islam is a big bump because they are so forceful, everyone else... extremists aside.. have been able to just live their life and not worry about ... 'unbelievers' ... Its clear from day one Bush was interested in a Jihad.. or Global Religeous War, so now they're all competing to be the right one, with all the answers... Islam and the extremists (from ALL religeons) are all claiming to be 'the right ones' and will kill to PROVE it to people.. spreading ideas through violence isn't a good way of getting recognized because no one is listening to how much something means to you.

[edit on 9/19/2006 by PuRe EnErGy]

Remember, I am more interested in this topic exploring the conspiracy of silence surrounding criticism of islam than actual Islam does this, Christianity does that kind of debate.

I am guilty of this, but I would really like to keep it here and not over at PTS (not that I have anything against that site, I just would rather explore the conspiracy of silence then a battle between idealogies.)

Thanks!

If we debate, it'll be in a seperate thread my friend.

In any case, I have noticed this issue myself. The Christian religion is often mocked, and in some cases completely banned from some places, while other religions are free to do their thing. Frankly, I don't care if a guy carries a Bible and proclaims God this or that, doesn't hurt my feelings. But people like that get put down, while doing the same thing to a Muslim is the equivilant of using racial slurs.

Originally posted by DJMessiah
For someone named "Speaker of Truth," you sure do make false claims. Can you tell me why Surrahs in the Quran state:

Surah - 9:11 "But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor due, then they are your brethren in religion. We detail Our revelations for a people who have knowledge."

Surah - "Al Baqarah" 2:62 "Those who believe, Jews, Nazarenes (Christians) and Sabaeans - whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day and does good deeds - shall be rewarded by their Lord; they have nothing to fear nor are they saddened."

[edit on 18-9-2006 by DJMessiah]

Umm,they still require you to believe as they do!!! You see, to me, any religion that states you must believe what they do is automatically false and can be used as a method of control. Now,there are factions of Christianity that state such things, just as there are factions of new agers, Jews, et cetera, that make such claims, but there is not a unification in these beliefs of such ideas,as there appears to be in Islam.

[edit on 19-9-2006 by SpeakerofTruth]

[edit on 19-9-2006 by SpeakerofTruth]

[edit on 19-9-2006 by SpeakerofTruth]

I understand the direction you want the thread to take..

To me, it does seem very odd the ... forced, almost, silence that surrounds critizing mohammad/islam... Like taboo but for unknown reasons almost...
Something also intriguing is ... well this is hard to put in words but..
say I act sheepish around you, and by nature you read a lot of 'be sure' ... 'have faith/no fear... like trust in something else' for instance the ideologies themselves, the books you read, the feeling.... whatever it is... So there I am all sheepish, uninformed about your knowledge, your 'power' ... then because I felt sheepish, when I'm not in your presence I go and read up and learn about what you know, and then inform everyone else in my area... they all take it for what it is, another persons perspective and than they draw cartoons and make fun of the ideology and the books of your particular 'knowledge'...
What are you going to do???? Well obviously SOME people would take that the wrong way, and react 'accordingly' ... and some people are violent by nature, due to their knowledge, and books.... or their surroundings and experiences, which are dictated by other peoples knowledge and books.

Originally posted by Marid Audran
I am curious why any time anyone tries to examine Islam and contemporary extremist issues the discussion is always redirected back to Christianity.

Because inevitably people try to make is seem like muslims are all evil or that islam is somehow the only religion with violent histories and tendencies.

The fact that we aren't even allowed to discuss the potential. Thanks for proving my point.

By disagreeing with you I am hardly acting as some NWO agent suppressing criticism of islam.

exploring the conspiracy of silence surrounding criticism of islam

You seem to be confusing near constant condemnation in the media and public arenas with silence. The only people I see in the public eye saying anything good about islam are muslims, everyone else is calling for their heads.

astygia
moderate Muslims, if they are concerned about their international reputation, should take a stand and find a venue in which to denounce extremism.

Indeed, they should do more. ITs also a mistake to think that they don't try to stand up against these kinds of things, but, what do you think makes a better headline 'reasonable people make some reasonable suggestions over tea" or "Firebrand cleric urges death'?

The Christian religion is often mocked, and in some cases completely banned from some places, while other religions are free to do their thing

Please cite some examples. When i look around, I tend to see peopel promoting christianity, even insisting that the government and nation itself is the property of jesus and that the law is based on the bible, and certainly don't see anyone makeing the parralel arguement for islam.

speakeroftruth
Now,there are factions of Christianity that state such things, just as there are factions of new agers, Jews, et cetera, that make such claims, but there is not a unification in these beliefs of such ideas,as there appears to be in Islam.

It is only the smallest fraction of christians that beleive that jesus has nothing to do with being saved, or indeed that there isn't anything you need to beleive. Islam is not any more strict in this matter, and, again, its clearly more accepting of non-muslim religions than, well, non-muslim religions are of others.

Originally posted by Nygdan
By disagreeing with you I am hardly acting as some NWO agent suppressing criticism of islam.

I don't think he was going that far, but in a way this does prove his point. Whether or not it's "fair" to use current goings-on in the Islamic world as criticism, the fact remains that such things are happening. So when someone calls a spade a spade, it becomes a touchy situation and those questioning it become bigots.

You seem to be confusing near constant condemnation in the media and public arenas with silence. The only people I see in the public eye saying anything good about islam are muslims, everyone else is calling for their heads.

That's simply not true. The U.S. government, while they are a few of my least favorite things, regularly address the difference between extremists and moderate Muslims, and urge listeners to distinguish between the two. At this time I see more "head calling" being done by Muslims, directed towards the entire western world.

Indeed, they should do more. ITs also a mistake to think that they don't try to stand up against these kinds of things, but, what do you think makes a better headline 'reasonable people make some reasonable suggestions over tea" or "Firebrand cleric urges death'?

You have a valid point, however you're missing the fact that perhaps millions of Muslims are demonstrating in favor of death to the Pope, death to the U.S., death to the Jews, and so on, while the moderates remain relatively silent. If a few thousand peaceful Muslims demonstrated in New York against such things, it would make the news and you can't deny that.

Please cite some examples. When i look around, I tend to see peopel promoting christianity, even insisting that the government and nation itself is the property of jesus and that the law is based on the bible, and certainly don't see anyone makeing the parralel arguement for islam.

Case in point: many schools have completely removed 'God' from their facilities, from the pledge of allegiance, and so on. People are fighting to remove anything remotely Christio-Biblical from public display, such as centuries-old statues and so on. Others protest the fact that government cemateries mark graves with crosses. A simple google search will bring thousands of examples of such things.

Yet various alternative religions are welcomed and given special considerations, examples of which will be found during the above google search. It seems that Christianity is just not "in", especially with regards to Islamic issues.

And keep in mind that I'm a somewhat different breed of Christian, so this isn't exactly and "us versus them" argument here.

It is only the smallest fraction of christians that beleive that jesus has nothing to do with being saved, or indeed that there isn't anything you need to beleive. Islam is not any more strict in this matter, and, again, its clearly more accepting of non-muslim religions than, well, non-muslim religions are of others.

I disagree. Please show me one Christian nation (of which there are none) that regularly imprisons and/or executes people for changing their religion, or one that perhaps blows up schools of differing religions within its borders.

You cannot do this, because first of all, there are no Christian nations. Nations which are predominantly Christian in population are also home to strict laws governing seperation of church and state, some of these laws almost funny in their measure of eradicating religion from various areas.

Second, the complete opposite is true of Islamic nations. They rule with an iron fist. That's not to say that all of them are barbaric, but majority decides such things. With the majority of Muslims either pledging their support for these things, or remaining quiet and thereby doing nothing...again, let's stop being politically correct about some things and call a spade a spade.

[edit on 20-9-2006 by Astygia]

Originally posted by Nygdan
Indeed, islam can be a peaceable and civilized religion, just like any other religion. And it can be used to commit atrocities, just like any other religion. That means that we can't address the problem by attacking the religion, but rather by attacking the extremists.

The only problem is that most Islamic nations that are under sharia law cannot live peaceably or civily:

Check out these two articles:

Fareeda's fate: rape, prison and 25 lashes

and

Women ordered to don burka