Some excerpts from the 'other' Good Book.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 6, Book 61, Number 577:
I heard the Prophet saying, "In the last days (of the world) there will appear young people with foolish thoughts and ideas. They will give good talks, but they will go out of Islam as an arrow goes out of its game, their faith will not exceed their throats. So, wherever you find them, kill them, for there will be a reward for their killers on the Day of Resurrection."

Really peaceful huh.

Quran Surah 2: The Cow

Don't bother to warn the disbelievers. Allah has blinded them. Theirs will be an awful doom. 6

Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. If they attack you, then kil them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. 191

Ah ok so dont give any warning, and kill all non believers. Got it. This peace stuff is really easy to understand.

War is ordained by Allah. 216

Oh hang on, that doesnt make any sense, I thought they were talking about peace....

Quran Surah 4
Unbelievers will be tormented forever with fire. When their skin is burned off, a fresh skin will be provided. 56

Okay now that is just sick.

You must believe everything Allah and his messengers tell you. Those who don't are disbelievers and will face a painful doom. 150-151

Good to see that Ilsam encourages critical thinking and debate.

Quran Surah 8: The Spoils of War
A prophet may not take captives until he has made a slaughter in the land. 67

Take no prisoners until you have made a slaughter in the land?!?!?!

Quran Surah 16: The Bee
Allah could have led everyone to the truth, but he chose not to. 9

Allah is such a great god, that he decided NOT to lead everyone to the truth, only those that killed and raped a slaughtered non-believers in his name. What a nice fellow.

Quran Surah 21: The Prophets
The people cried out for mercy, but Allah killed them anyway. 15

Ive run out of sarcasm and am now simply filled with shock.

Surah 22: The Pilgrimage
Disbelievers will wear garments of fire, boiling fluid will be poured on their heads, their bellies and skin will be melted, they will be tormented with iron hooks, and when they try to escape they will be driven back with the taunt: Taste the doom of burning. 19-22

Again, no sarcasm here only shock.

Quran Surah 33: The Clans
Don't obey disbelievers.

This makes me wonder what the Muslims in countries ruled by non-muslims think. Do they obey the laws of their god? Or do they stay loyal to their country and to their fellow citizens?

Quran Surah 58: She That Disputeth
On the Last Day good Muslims will not love their non-Muslim friends and family members, not even their fathers, sons, or brothers (or their mothers, daughters, or sisters). 22

What a religion, telling people to forsake their non-muslim friends AND EVEN FAMILY MEMBERS.

Now Im sure someone will be here trying to tell me that I've taken these 'out of context' or that there is 'a deeper meaning' that Im missing. Frankly, I dont see how these can be read as anything other than hate mongering and violent propoganda from a 'cult' leader.

Yep thats right - I no longer consider Muhammed a religious leader. Religions dont tell people to forsake their family - CULTS do.

Religions do not tell their followers to kill and torture non believers - CULTS do.

While Islam has evolved into a religion over the centuries, as scholars and decent mulsims found spiritual guidance in the Quran that helped them to become better citizens - that doesnt change the fact that Muhammed was not spiritualy enlightened, he was a violent, psychopathic CULT leader.

Instead of misquoting Surrahs, why not try reading the actual Quran? I have already replied to these Surrahs over and over again. You need to please stop deceiving us.

Read the topics here and here.

[edit on 18-9-2006 by DJMessiah]

What a religion, telling people to forsake their non-muslim friends AND EVEN FAMILY MEMBERS.

The bible has a similar quote:
If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple. Luke 14:26

Originally posted by DJMessiah
Instead of misquoting Surrahs, why not try reading the actual Quran? I have already replied to these Surrahs over and over again. You need to please stop deceiving us.

Read the topics here and here.

[edit on 18-9-2006 by DJMessiah]

I will be more than happy to read them. Im new to this Islam stuff - and to be honest it frightens the hell out of me.

Careful, Ezekiel. Its a trick.

They will try to distract you by diverting your eyes to the page, instead of you looking up at the tv screen, or out your window. The Koran can say a zillion things, but its what the followers do that counts. You are right to be wary of their actions.

Don't let them divert you from what you already seem to have a grasp of: how much anti-muslim violence goes on in the western world compared to anti-christian violence by muslims across the whole world. Your eyes can tell you all you need to know.

Originally posted by hogtie
Careful, Ezekiel. Its a trick.

Thanks for the warning mate

They will try to distract you by diverting your eyes to the page, instead of you looking up at the tv screen, or out your window. The Koran can say a zillion things, but its what the followers do that counts. You are right to be wary of their actions.

My eyes are wide open - thats why it scares me. The reason I'm interested in reading into the Qu'ran is to try to understand how these extremsists get their motivation.

Don't let them divert you from what you already seem to have a grasp of: how much anti-muslim violence goes on in the western world compared to anti-christian violence by muslims across the whole world. Your eyes can tell you all you need to know.

Thanks for the encouragement, its good to know that I'm not the only one who feels worried by this

Originally posted by etshrtslr

What a religion, telling people to forsake their non-muslim friends AND EVEN FAMILY MEMBERS.

The bible has a similar quote:
If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple. Luke 14:26

Hate is different than KILL...
Hate just means being detached..

Originally posted by PuRe EnErGy

Originally posted by etshrtslr

What a religion, telling people to forsake their non-muslim friends AND EVEN FAMILY MEMBERS.

The bible has a similar quote:
If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple. Luke 14:26

Hate is different than KILL...
Hate just means being detached..

I beleive the passage that was posted from the quran that I said was similar to the one in the bible does not mention killing.....I was not referring to the numerous other passage that were posted from the quran that do mention killing.

It just struck me as ironic that there are similar passages in both books.

Originally posted by etshrtslr

Originally posted by PuRe EnErGy

Originally posted by etshrtslr

What a religion, telling people to forsake their non-muslim friends AND EVEN FAMILY MEMBERS.

The bible has a similar quote:
If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple. Luke 14:26

Hate is different than KILL...
Hate just means being detached..

I beleive the passage that was posted from the quran that I said was similar to the one in the bible does not mention killing.....I was not referring to the numerous other passage that were posted from the quran that do mention killing.

It just struck me as ironic that there are similar passages in both books.

Oh I understand what you meant.. I was just saying.. they took words to an extreme..(the doctrine your quoting from, 'the killers')
The piece from the bible on the otherhand was talking about hate.. because deep hate usually turns to indifference... and being indifferent to the people close to you can be helpful, because they often misdirect us, with our emotional attachments.

Both books are incredibly similar. They share a cultural history as well as the same god of Abraham, along with the Jewish peoples.

The call for violent opposition of non-believers is universal in all three as well. The difference is that Islam has not undergone a period of reformation, which is essential for it to co-exist peacefuly in the modern world.

There are reformers, but they are met with stiff opposition because the old-school hardliners do not want to give up thier power to a more personal God. Julaladin Rumi was a 14th century mystic who believed that a religion with divisions was no relegion at all. His head was mysteriously cut off, and these hundreds of years later, some Muslims just see him as a mediocre scholar, instead of the spiritual genius he was.

Well, go through the Bible and looksee at the violent parts. Its pretty chock full of it. Matter of fact, just about all books from way back when are real violent.

My advice: convert to Buddhism and move to some mountains somewhere.

because deep hate usually turns to indifference...

I thought that deep hate lead to extreme violence and killing....much like what extreme islam wants to and has done to the west all because they hate us they kill us.

Hate is often a precursor to violence. A populace is sometimes trained via political propaganda to hate some nation, faith, or political regime. Hatred is a major motive behind armed conflicts such as war and terrorism.

link

Originally posted by hogtie
They will try to distract you by diverting your eyes to the page, instead of you looking up at the tv screen, or out your window. The Koran can say a zillion things, but its what the followers do that counts. You are right to be wary of their actions.

Whoa. I don't think this is good advice.

I don't judge Islam by terrorists any more than I judge Christianity by the KKK. The actions of extreme fundamentalists will always make the news, and they are portraying a distorted version of their religion.

Now I don't know a lot about the Koran or Islam. But I do know that if you want to get to know a religion, then you should read its doctrine, you shouldn't always look at the people who are invoking its name...they often have their own agenda.

I was speaking of learning what Muslims were doing, not learning about the Koran. If someone wants to learn about the religion itself, sure you can go to the texts. But this is about the application thereof. Just as if you want to learn about spirituality, religious texts are a poor guide.

Originally posted by hogtie
I was speaking of learning what Muslims were doing, not learning about the Koran. If someone wants to learn about the religion itself, sure you can go to the texts. But this is about the application thereof.

I do see what you're saying hogtie, but I still think it's kind of like comparing an axe-murderer with a lumberjack. Sure it's the same tool, but what defines those people is their purpose.

A religion is a tool...a path to knowing God.
Some people set up booths to sell stuff to people traveling that path.
Some people use that path as a great place to ambush people and kill them.
Some people actually walk the path.

If you want to talk about the application of a religion, I think it's important to separate the first two examples above from the third. The first two are EXPLOITING the religion, only the third is APPLYING it.

I have a beautiful copy of the Quran one side in English and the other one in Arab, it was given as a gift to my husband in the first gulf war by friends from Kuwait, and I tell you is a very fascinating book and very similar to the bible.

Originally posted by Essedarius
Now I don't know a lot about the Koran or Islam. But I do know that if you want to get to know a religion, then you should read its doctrine, you shouldn't always look at the people who are invoking its name...they often have their own agenda.

Good point Essedarius!! I'd also suggest reading/listening to what Islamic scholars write/say as well. Reading the Islamic references (Qur'an, Hadith, etc) can be mind numbing but I believe the Islamic scholars themselves provide and excellent window into the ideology. For example; this web site is an informative place to start wherein visitors ask questions of Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid, a scholar and owner of the site; and he provides opinions, or fatwas, while also providing the Islamic references for those opinions. A few notable questions I found answered are:

On what should be done to people who mock or insult the Prophet Mohamed

Answer:

The scholars are unanimously agreed that a Muslim who insults the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) becomes a kaafir and an apostate who is to be executed. This consensus was narrated by more than one of the scholars, such as Imaam Ishaaq ibn Raahawayh, Ibn al-Mundhir, al-Qaadi ‘Iyaad, al-Khattaabi and others. Al-Saarim al-Maslool, 2/13-16

On what to do with people who practice witchcraft:

Answer:

If it is proven that a person is doing witchcraft then it is obligatory to kill him because of his evil and the harm that he is doing to people. This has been explained in the answer to question no. 13941

On the proper method to execute an adulterer

Answer:

It is essential to stone the married adulterer until he dies, following the Sunnah of the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), as it is proven that he said that, did it and enjoined it.

On the proper way to flog an unmarried fornicator (zina)

Answer:

Flogging in the case of hudood punishments is not meant to kill, rather it is intended as a form of discipline and rebuke, and to purify the person of sin. Hence many fuqaha’ have pointed out that it must be done with moderate force, and the person carrying out the punishment should not raise his arm so high that his armpit shows, and he should not use a new whip, or strip the person of his clothing unless it is something like a thick coat, which should be removed.

And if you like a little Merlot or Cabernet with your steak you'd better consider the consequences of your beverage of choice:

With regard to the punishment of the drinker in this world, the punishment is flogging, according to the consensus of the fuqaha’, because of the report narrated by Muslim (3281) from Anas (may Allaah be pleased with him), who said that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) flogged the one who had drunk wine with palm branches stripped of their leaves and with shoes.

But there is some difference of opinion as to the number of lashes. The majority of scholars are of the view that it is eighty lashes for a free man and forty for others

If you wish to show your lovely wife a little affection while in the presence of the general public:

Shaykh Muhammad ibn Ibraaheem (may Allaah have mercy on him) said in his Fataawa (10/277) that kissing one’s wife in front of people is not permissible

On who "wears the pants" in the family and how hard he should beat his obstinant "better half" (lightly)

Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allaah has made one of them to excel the other, and because they spend (to support them) from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient (to Allaah and to their husbands), and guard in the husband’s absence what Allaah orders them to guard (e.g. their chastity and their husband’s property). As to those women on whose part you see ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (next) refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly, if it is useful); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance). Surely, Allaah is Ever Most High, Most Great”

I could go on and on. The point is that this horse's mouth should be the indicator of the "peaceful" nature of Islam (which means "submit" by the way!)


[edit on 18-9-2006 by Freedom_for_sum]

What you quoted is the Hadith. The Quran is the primary source of the Muslim faith, because it is God's words taught to Muhammad through the angel Gabriel. The Hadiths on the other hand were statements recorded after the death of Muhammad, by some Muslims, people wanting to hurt Islam, and people who weren't even born when Muhammad died.

There were many that were falsified, condecending, and some where written by non-Muslims so that they could create conflict. Muhammad himself denied any of his followers from writting the hadiths, because he knew that unlike the Quran, the hadiths could be corrupted and have writtings from anyone. I would also note that Muhammad did not write the hadiths (he had been illiterate). Since the hadiths contained teachings from men other than Muhammad, not every Muslims trusts it. If you want to read text that defines Islam, then read the Quran.

You were right about "Islam" meaning "submit." It means to "submit to God."

[edit on 18-9-2006 by DJMessiah]

Originally posted by marg6043
I have a beautiful copy of the Quran one side in English and the other one in Arab, it was given as a gift to my husband in the first gulf war by friends from Kuwait, and I tell you is a very fascinating book and very similar to the bible.

Marge

Our paths have crossed before and if I remember correctly, I left you with a question that you have yet to answer: How can you be part of an ideology that gives husbands permission to beat their wives?

Originally posted by Freedom_for_sum
Marge

Our paths have crossed before and if I remember correctly, I left you with a question that you have yet to answer: How can you be part of an ideology that gives husbands permission to beat their wives?

I'm assuming you mean Surrah 4:34:

This Surrah describes wives who commit adultery on more than one occasion, while their husband is away. You're referring to the last line, in which it says the word "daraba." If you read Arabic, you will know this word has many meanings. In this case, it means to "hit." The Quran does not allow women to be treated harsh, as you're trying to make it out to be. It states that a husband must first ask his wife to ask for forgiveness from God for committing adultery. If she commits adultery again, he is to separate his bed from hers for a night. If she does it again, she is to receive a small hit. You may think this is harsh, but the hit is not to be forceful, only a light hit for committing adultery more than once. For no other reason than the wife committing adultery on more than one occasion can a husband hit her lightly. Hitting her for any other reason is a sin, and gives the woman the freedom to divorce. Now compare this punishment for adultery to other religions which require that the woman to be stoned to death for her first offense.

[edit on 19-9-2006 by DJMessiah]