Profiles for School Shootings

The recent school shooting at Dawson College has had me thinking about the attackers themselves, and how much of a profile they fit. How many people are to blame for these? Are the parents to blame? Maybe the education system itself? How about the Mass media for creating an unattainable image for our youth to reach for?

Now profiles for these attackers are not perfect, and are not nearly enough to prevent the attack. However if we notice a trend in certain charachteristics, why not prevent those? If the Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold's of the world are always being bullied in school, why not make stronger efforts to prevent bullying? If we notice that these individuals are regularly consumed in their own reality, and rarely attend social events than why not put bigger pushes for children to attend certain activities. This has to start right from pre-school, then maybe in the future these massacre's can be prevented.

The Columbine Massacre could not of been prevented, but we could of prevented those two teenagers from turning into the troubled youth they became.

Too often after a school shooting we here Politicians talking about Gun Laws and the need for metal detectors at schools. Employing police officers to work in and around the school incase an issue was to arise. Why not take the problem right from the root?

I would believe it to be a very high percentage of the youth to of either taken part in bullying or was bullied themselves.

These people are not born killers, they were great kids at one time with as much potential as the next kid. Most times the assailant excelled in their school work. So you have to ask yourself how these students can be so bright but yet so messed up.

So what I would like to discuss here is the validity of Profiles for these attackers. Who is to blame? But most importantly, were we all capable of preventing this?

Who is at fault? Oh boy, that's a tough question. Some would say the parents, others society, still others would blame the school, or whatever facility the rampages took place in...schools, post offices, etc...the supervisors should have noticed something. I am sure that someone else will come up with still more reasons...

My thoughts are all of them share equally in the blame...maybe the parents a bit more than the others, for allowing something like Columbine to occur, or the Dawson College incident.

That the shooters were victims of bullying or other societal ostracism, is probably correct, at least in the case of the Columbine shooters.

When I was a kid...I, and most other kids, at least in my experiance; were taught to stand up to a bully, as most bullies are cowards...standing up to a bully doesn't neccessarily require going fist city, mostly it requires showing no fear. Obviously, if there are four or five of them, fear is probably warrented. This is how I learned that respect, particularly amongst kids in your own peergroup, is earned; never granted. Running away, even if only metaphorically, earns you nothing but contempt, even from the ones in authority...wrong of course, but there nevertheless.

I was, for a short time, a victim of bullying, from about the third grade, to midway through my fourth grade year, there were two kids who's chief pleasure was the torment of one Seagull. They were always together, and being in the fifth grade somewhat larger than I, somewhat? God, they were flippin' Goliath and I was Pee wee Herman. But that midway point I mentioned...growth spurt. When I realized I could look them in the eye, the fear was gone, replaced by anger, the three of us went fist city in the hallway of that little elementary school...I lost, after all there were two of them...Jackie Chan I ain't. What amazes me the most about that particular episode was how quickly the bullying of yours truely stopped. Yeah, I lost the fight, but I stood up for myself...respect was earned as was self-respect.

These days it seems to me that we are asked to try to negotiate, or mediate, even ignore these sort of things. It would be nice if that were possible, no one should have to fight a bully to earn respect from ones peers. Yeah, its a primitive social behaviour, but mankind as a whole ain't all that far removed from our monkey/ape ancestors, who established and still establish pecking orders in just this sort of fashion...

I don't know if being bullied was the trigger for these events...it seems likely that it was at least a contributing factor, though. It should have been stopped, by the parents going to the school...the school by noticing this going on and putting a stop to it, or letting the bullied stand up for themselves without censure if they do stand up for themselves...

You cannot force peers to respect each other...respect is earned...one way or another. Ultimately, the Columbine shooters were after respect, and were determined to get it...by any means neccessary. Now maybe this couldn't have been solved by a playground brawl, but then again, maybe it could have.

Is this a first? Someone advocating playground fights as a method of social engineering?

Originally posted by chissler
The Columbine Massacre could not of been prevented, but we could of prevented those two teenagers from turning into the troubled youth they became.

Many will disagree with you there, it is clear they think Columbine could have been prevented.
Could Columbine Have Been Prevented?

I am not sure about Dawson as to its prevention, I have not read that much about it.

Originally posted by seagull
My thoughts are all of them share equally in the blame...maybe the parents a bit more than the others, for allowing something like Columbine to occur, or the Dawson College incident.

I disagree for this reason, most times the parents are kept in the dark more than anybody. The child at home probably seems perfectly normal, they have good grades and respect their elders. What else could a mother ask?

However when the individual is at school, rarely socializing or the victim of bullying, it is the educators who need to be aware of this. So the education system itself has to be atleast equally to blame in my opinion.

I agree with your thoughts on respect. It does have to be earned, but not every child is going to face their fears and stand up to bullies. Do young children respect their peers, or abide by them out of fear? The so called respected students are merely those that are feared.

Originally posted by shots

Many will disagree with you there, it is clear they think Columbine could have been prevented.

My intention was to explain how you can not always pin point when an individual is going to snap. How can you predict which student is going to go over the edge, and when this will happen.

I do retract my comment though, as it is obvious that Columbine could have been prevented.

Good link, Shots. These students sure left a trail to follow before the massacre.

IMO, there are some children pathologically capable of violence. There are others who see violence as a way to deal with a problem at school.
Schools are cutting back on counselors trained to help young people. Schools are making higher test scores the goal of a good school. Ironic, that a school shooter could have great grades/test scores and then be deemed a good student.

In the old days, fist fighting among young males was an acceptable method to settle disputes. (Why, a duel used to be perfectly acceptable!) I confess one of my sons was involved in a fight (off campus), blood all over. And that alone should make people turn off to fist fights. If one of the opponents should have a disease transmitted via bodily fluids, it could be all over folks, if blood is exchanged in that fight. Sanctioned boxing has blood tests afterall.

Originally posted by desert
Good link, Shots. These students sure left a trail to follow before the massacre.

I have a funny feeling even in this case there is a trail only they just have not found it yet. The Game site he went too was violent as I understand and the message boards may or may not contain more info. The website I think has been taken down but I am not sure.

I think the bottom line here is lack of parential supervision.

Originally posted by chissler
Are the parents to blame? Maybe the education system itself? How about the Mass media for creating an unattainable image for our youth to reach for?

I agree that Parents played big roll in this and some fault may lie in the schools. As for the media giving them a goall to reach????? I think that should have read the media should not make a big spectical out of school shootings as they do.

Originally posted by chissler

If we notice that these individuals are regularly consumed in their own reality, and rarely attend social events than why not put bigger pushes for children to attend certain activities. This has to start right from pre-school, then maybe in the future these massacre's can be prevented.

All of that sounds well and good. However, when you have someone who is a loner,"anti-social", there is not much you can do to encourage them to participate. Most loners feel like they don't fit. (I know because I am one)It doesn't matter what anyone says or does for that person, a loner just always feels like he/she is out of place.

While your idea on the surface sounds good,I don't think it would work. We are dealing with people's psyches,not a passing phase they are going through.

Usually,at least in my own personal experience, what happens is that there is something said or done to a person at a young age that causes him/her to be a loner. Many times, like in my case, the individual cannot even pinpoint what happened to cause himself/herself to be the way that they are. It just is.

I cannot pinpoint exactly what causes me to avoid social interaction with people. All I know is that there is no real desire for me to do so; as a matter of fact, there is almost an intense fear of doing it. It's not because I haven't tried, because I have. It just doesn't work for me. I always feel like I don't belong;I feel like I'm being judged when i'm around a group of people. The bad part of it is, a loner "clams up" when they feel like they are being judged, that "clamming up" leads to even more intense feelings of being judged.

I'm surprised that on a conspiracy website that the idea of weirdo's going into schools and doing a shoot up is not in itself a conspiracy of sorts? But can we stop it? likely not until we really understand what happened and the system is not going to hand that to us on a platter because they are all control freaks anyways right? Like 911 we have to dig and find the truth. Some have argued that the myriad new counter cultures that we can now freely engage in themselves are part of a conspiracy... others argue it is merely freedom but it is freedom with a price too.

When I first began to hear about this incident on the news and comments were made that called it "Canada's Columbine." This struck me as weird because it happened at a college, and Columbine was of course a high school.

In my opinion there is a huge different and impact on the student between college and high school (unless I'm missing something obvious if the words are used differently up there.) In high school, school is a major part of your life - you probably have known (or perhaps to a student gunman, hate) your classmates for much of your life. In a way, it is very much a part of who you are. Students are very connected to their school, and events involving the school (bullying, etc) mean a lot more to the students.

In college, your school can be as little or as much a part of you as you make it - you spend much less time there than in high school, and you're not with the same group of people for years and years (unless you chose to be.) I mean, even if you live on the actual campus, nobody is going to make sure you show up to class - the whole thing is kind of a take it or leave it type affair. If you're having problems with people in high school you have little power to get away from them, but in college you only have to deal with the people you want to deal with.

Just my opinion on this tragedy. At one of the universities I went to, though before my time, a young man shot his girlfriend and then himself, a tragedy no doubt, but he didn't start shooting random people.

Do they have metal detectors at schools up north? I've never seen them at a college/university down here... then again I never saw them at a highschool either, but we've all heard about those on the news.

SpeakerOfTruth,

I understand it is a simple truth for me to speak of when I do not deal with this first hand. You have explained that you do deal with it first hand, and it is a complete different story. Well, in my previous post I did mean to downplay the effort that would be required. Once a child hits a certain age, the effort required becomes that much more difficult. So what has to be done is get them at an early age. At the first sign of separation from their peers, make an effort have them take part in some activity.

Children have interests, if its Sports or Comics the parents need to become involved and find a group for their child to take part in. Socially accepted doesn't have to be with the popular kids in class, they just need their own group from a young age.

When a child remains alone through the first several years of school, they confide in noone and begin to form hatred. As years pass this grows stronger, and in more time they will come across other individuals who have shared their same fate. This hate can form together and result in some of the tragedies we have read about. Now this is not always the case for children who have confided in noone but themselves, but it is the profile that is being formed.

I find it upsetting that you have labeled yourself a Loner. It's one thing not to take part in social activities, but when you convice yourself that you actually don't belong you are only creating a mental block that is even tougher to overcome. The fear of being judged by your peers can be consuming, when I was younger I had a fear of this as well. My involvement with sports had kept me going which I believe was a big factor in my ability to ignore those fears today.

A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.

I understand we are dealing with the psyche of children, but they have been convinced to believe this and are capable of learning different. Children are not born as loners, they are taught to believe this over time. With an effort, they can be taught different.

Originally posted by chissler
SpeakerOfTruth,

Children have interests, if its Sports or Comics the parents need to become involved and find a group for their child to take part in. Socially accepted doesn't have to be with the popular kids in class, they just need their own group from a young age.

When a child remains alone through the first several years of school, they confide in noone and begin to form hatred. As years pass this grows stronger, and in more time they will come across other individuals who have shared their same fate. This hate can form together and result in some of the tragedies we have read about. Now this is not always the case for children who have confided in noone but themselves, but it is the profile that is being formed.

I find it upsetting that you have labeled yourself a Loner. It's one thing not to take part in social activities, but when you convice yourself that you actually don't belong you are only creating a mental block that is even tougher to overcome. The fear of being judged by your peers can be consuming, when I was younger I had a fear of this as well. My involvement with sports had kept me going which I believe was a big factor in my ability to ignore those fears today.

I do agree with you to an extent... I feel like "loners" have a tendency to put themselves in the proverbial "funk" which leads to even more alone time for that individual. I would not dare be so presumptuous to assume that "loners" should adopt the "it's everyone else's fault" mentality. Much of the "loner's" psychosis is due to his/her own attitude about the public in general.

Like I said previously, generally it doesn't matter what anyone says to or does for a "loner" it's not likely to break the shell that the individual has already built up.I think, much like you, that if there is anything to be done about it, it needs to be spotted and corrected early in life. If not, it's a lost cause in my opinion.

Being somewhat of a "loner" myself, I can possibly give a person some insight into what that kind of lifestyle is like.

1) When you are out in public,typically with a group of people, you think everyone is listening more closely to what everyone else has to say than what they are to you. You begin to develop an attitude that states: "If they aren't listening, why talk to them?"

2) Then you start noticing little things that you deem "wrong" with yourself; it's important to realize that it's typically things most other people haven't even noticed about you, but you think they have. (Extreme self consciousness)

3) Then sometimes it grows into a feeling of superiority. You think, "Who cares if they don't want to be around me, I'm too good for them anyway". Notice the extremes of the psychosis. It goes from viewing yourself as the very lowest to the very highest. It's actually, in my opinion, an extended excuse not to have anything to do with others.

So, to say a "loner" doesn't share some of the blame is very misleading.

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If I might interject some info here for all those who feel they might be "loners", something they have felt all their life.
www.hsperson.com...
This might help explain why.

Disclaimer--I am sharing this as a way of helping to explain some people's feelings of not being like the rest. This is not to imply that school shooters are in this category.

Originally posted by desert
If I might interject some info here for all those who feel they might be "loners", something they have felt all their life.
www.hsperson.com...
This might help explain why.

Disclaimer--I am sharing this as a way of helping to explain some people's feelings of not being like the rest. This is not to imply that school shooters are in this category.

Well,to an extent I think that is part of it. I tend to pick up on things from people that a lot of other people either ignore or just don't pick up on.

Picking up on it?

I think more often then not it is creating something out of nothing. Awkward silence between a loner in a group should not turn into an I am better than you or your better than me thought. Its quite possible people are trying to figure out what to say, or questioning their own ability to why you are not speaking with them. Speculation of course, but it is my strong opinion that we as individuals are not always being judged harshly.

We need to grasp the fact that some people are looking for the best in you and not judging your lesser qualities.

Minor adjustments in these loners past could spell a completely different today and tomorrow.

Originally posted by chissler
Picking up on it?

I think more often then not it is creating something out of nothing. Awkward silence between a loner in a group should not turn into an I am better than you or your better than me thought. Its quite possible people are trying to figure out what to say, or questioning their own ability to why you are not speaking with them. Speculation of course, but it is my strong opinion that we as individuals are not always being judged harshly.

We need to grasp the fact that some people are looking for the best in you and not judging your lesser qualities.

Minor adjustments in these loners past could spell a completely different today and tomorrow.

Again, as I previously stated, to say that "loners" don't share responsibility in their psychosis,for lack of a better word, would be awfully presumptuous and quite false.

I have a tough time accepting that people can feel they are a lost cause at such a young age.

Originally posted by desert
If I might interject some info here for all those who feel they might be "loners", something they have felt all their life.

I'm a loner and make no apologies for it. However, when young people appear to be isolated and alienated from their peers, someone needs to intervene to help find underlying problems. This is one of the purposes of the educational system--to help children to grow up strong, educated and ready to face the difficulties of life.

Originally posted by chissler
I have a tough time accepting that people can feel they are a lost cause at such a young age.

I think that once a child hits about fifteen or sixteen and he/she is exhibiting behavior that is not "normal" for a youngster, unless someone steps in fairly quickly to change that person's perspective,it's very much a lost cause. As for me, I am twenty-nine years old, to ask me to change who I am would be like asking someone to hand down the moon to you. I am very much a lost cause as far as the social end of the spectrum is concerned.

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
...when young people appear to be isolated and alienated from their peers, someone needs to intervene to help find underlying problems. This is one of the purposes of the educational system--to help children to grow up strong, educated and ready to face the difficulties of life.

Sigh...sadly, the educational system has become a chase for points on a standards test. In an effort to cut expenses, a local school district has gotten rid of counselors and replaced them with guidance technicians, who receive on the job training in how to schedule students into classes. The old guidance counselor is often no more. Your student might be talking to someone who has had no training to understand or handle student problems. A school psychologist will only handle student problems if the problems affect the student academically--making good grades?...sorry, no help. Again, money saving.

Re being a loner. Apparently, there can be a chemical basis for the Highly Sensitive Person (see my previous post), who can--but not always--appear to be a "loner" or socially awkward. While this might present some schools problems, this can be a far cry from a student who appears to be alienated because of sexual or physical abuse, a major psychological disfunction, or a socio-pathic tendency. Doing away with school personnel who are trained to detect and counsel these individuals is a bad idea.

The idea of schools nowadays is that schools cannot help what background the student brings to school. The school can only help academically. Hence, the push to raise test scores as proof of a good school. Schools must disregard everything about a student but instead push everyone forward to academic proficiency. A student with a 65IQ is supposed to achieve the same as a student with an IQ of 120, for example.
A student gifted in music but not math is expected to achieve the same as a student gifted in math, or be labeled a failure. As long as a student is contributing test points towards a school, everything is fine, other problems don't exist.