2,000,000 Terrorists in Britain

ok , a quick " hit and run "

this was also reported in the Times , so the demonisation of the daily mail ploy does not wash .

secondly the " 2 million terrorists " quote - was a direct utterance from Dr Bari , a Moslem community " leader "

to paraphrase his position his claim was :

" if you do not stop steroptyping / victimising moselms , and fail to treat our community with more respect , and continue to persue wars in moslem countries . then your policies will create 2 million brittish moslem terrorists "

not his exact words , but a fair summary of his position

next up , dr Bari does not prepresent brittish moslems in thier entirity , [ though he claims to ] and

his claim of " 2 million terrorists " is pure hyperbole -- it was an inflamatory quote aimed at the media , and they swallowed it , hook line and sinker

i have many moslem associates in Blackburn and thier opinion of Bari is universally scathing .

if you wish to cast Bari as " representative " of brittish moslems , and a " community leader " then american christians must accept that pat robbertson is thier leader , and speaks for them

sure bari and his ilk have thier followers and supporters , but they are an issolated and vocal minority -- who get more collum inches in the UK press , simply because thier views cause such controversy .

bear this in mind , before taking the opinion of dr bari at face value .

Originally posted by ignorant_ape

to paraphrase his position his claim was :

" if you do not stop steroptyping / victimising moselms , and fail to treat our community with more respect , and continue to persue wars in moslem countries . then your policies will create 2 million brittish moslem terrorists "

Which is interetsing, because he's just sterotyped/victimised all moslems .....

It's people like him who are stirring racial unrest and create the daft notions that your religion has anything to do with your support for murderers. Likewise, our international policy - much as he'd like it to be - has nothing to do with religion either. Or is that why we're attempting to overthrow the Islamic regimes in Pakistan and Inodnesia atm?

Incidently, isn't 'muslim terrorist' a bit of an oxymoron? Same as Christian terrorist - you can't believe in cold blooded murder and believe in love, respect and forgiveness ....

Remember that in this climate the governments of the usa/uk are treating many non terrorists as terrorists or potentials...I wonder how many of these 2 million are people like us on ATS who seek the truth on such matters as 911 7/7 and the like.
There is absolutley NO WAY that there is 2 million terrorists in the UK.This is yet another fear mongering,anti islam,racist project by our death worshipping rulers.

Heres a tip...when you see a muslim on a bus or train,or in the shops-say hello to them.You will find that most of them are decent people.

On a side note,why are the people who just got busted running guns from the USA to London not being called terrorists?Can you imagine what the state controlled media would have done with this story if the perps had been say,Pakistani instead of Brits and Americans?

How stoopid do the government think we are?

This is ridiculous. I'm amazed at how some people can be so bigoted, narrow minded, and stupid. Especially as the OP quoted from a paper that supported Hitler. THat's pretty bad.

) Who's this "we"? Personally I've never been forced to submit to Sharia, and I don't know anyone who has.

We….Britain, the UK, Brittania, Blighty….or were you hoping I’d say The Great White Brotherhood of the Aryan West, would that feed into your own paranoid world view, the type you’re so quick to attack in others. And who said anything about sharia law, you’re making great assumptive leaps there aren’t you? Do I have to signpost everything I say to avoid people going off on tangents. Read up on it we’ve experienced problems, intergration, assimilation, tolerance, radical Islam you know.

Where are these dirty bombs? They are chimerae summoned up by the various security services to scare you. Please, please find me some actual hard evidence that any "muslim terrorist" actually got within a thousand miles of the specific materials required to make a dirty bomb. If you can't do that, then you might begin to suspect that you're the willing victim of a propaganda campaign.

And you summon another chimera to deal with mine, show ME hard evidence that what you believe isn’t a mish mash of speculation, circumstantial evidence and plain old incompetence presented as a sinister govt/media agenda. Prove to me that there are no terrorists, there’s zero evidence that they could ever get their hands on the materials needed to inflict mass devestation, or hijack another plane or set off bombs on buses and tubes and that we (the UK) will suffer no terror attacks within the next….say five years. I’m not even saying you couldn’t be right, just show me but until then I’ll go with the evidnce in front of my own eyes, that is home grown British terrorists.

This is not about hating muslims it’s about having the freedom and right to express a concern without having your words twisted into some kind of right wing rant, or being presented as mentally unbalanced/brainwashed by the powers that be. And seeing as this whole thread seems to have been in response to the utterances of a muslim ‘spokesperson’ as the dubious Mr Bari appoints himself, what does that say about the paranoia and intolerant sensibilities within the muslim community, are we allowed to challenge that or do they get an allowance?



[edit on 15-9-2006 by ubermunche]

Originally posted by MacDonagh

This is ridiculous. I'm amazed at how some people can be so bigoted, narrow minded, and stupid. Especially as the OP quoted from a paper that supported Hitler. THat's pretty bad.

I hope all these people vilifying the Daily Mail for it's supposed support of Hitler, fifty plus years ago are also busy boycotting and criticising the Irish Republic for remaining nuetral in WWII and who's president Eamon De Valera sent a message of condolence to Germany upon Hitlers death. Do you forever dismiss and vilify a country or instituition for a stupid mistake made in the mists of time or is it possible that bigotry, narrow mindedness and stupidity exist on both sides of the fence.

Originally posted by ubermunche
I hope all these people vilifying the Daily Mail for it's supposed support of Hitler, fifty plus years ago are also busy boycotting and criticising the Irish Republic for remaining nuetral in WWII and who's president Eamon De Valera sent a message of condolence to Germany upon Hitlers death.

for the record, the Irish Republic was VERY anti-British then and it was a more of "rubbing salt in". British and Irish still had tension over what happened in Ireland and the creation of Northern Ireland aswell

This is very worrying. I think ALL muslims should be removed from the UK permanently. Why they are allowed into our country is beyond me.

Originally posted by Nygdan
What the heck does that matter? Christians are still wildly violent.

Are you on drugs?
Wildly violent?
In what world?
The opnly religous group in the world today that can be described as "wildly violent" are muslims.
When andre serrano debuted his "piss christ" at the new york museam wwere there any fire bombings? Any riot's? Any murders?
"When holy blood holy grail" and its successor "the davinci code" were released, claiming a stance that most christians find blasphemous, were there fire bombings? riots?
No, then how exactly do you characterise christians as "wildly violent'?

The violence has nothing to do with the religion, and islam requires its members to be peaceable, except when they are being attacked.

Wrong, Muslims may use violence to spread the islamic caliphate, to bring other nations under muslim rule, to punish muslims who become "apostates" that is who change religons, they may use violence against those who insult islam, against those non-muslims living in muslim countries who refuse to submit to the rules enforced on dhimmis, (for example during muslim rule, during the supposed "golden age" any jews or christians who refused to take off thier shoes when crossing in front of a muslims home, or refused to dismount thier donkey, the only beast of burden they were allowed, when a muslim came into to view could be legally executed bny said muslim for 'disrespect" and for many other reasons besides. Given that all of these "reasons for violence" come from the words of thier own prophet, as recorded in the quran, how can you possibly say that the violence has nothing to do with the religon. Unless of course you're simply being willfully ignorant.

Even then, it makes different rules for how they are permited to counter-attack, reserving the most lethal attacks only for when islamic territory, likesay arabia or egypt, is being defended.

Wrong again. Try actually reading the quran and the work of muslim jurists as opposed to drinking the kool aid huh?

Islam actually tries to regulate violence, whereas christianity demands that there be none at all. Both fail.

Really? It seems that christianity is doing a pretty good job of keeping its adherants from rioting whenever someone says somehting they don't like, from firebombing those they disagree with, and I can't remeber the last time the pope passed a death sentace on someone for writing a book as was done to rusdie. Maybe the only reason Islam is failing so badly is because it isn't trying.

Originally posted by wondernut
of this religion


they are fundamentally both based on judaism and all 3 believe in a simular god and have simular teachings

ANother myth.
Islam is not based on either christianity or judaism. Yes Muhgammad did take some doctrinal thoeries and some stories from both jews and Christians, but he made the rest up out of whole cloth, and severly bastardised the rest.
For example Issa is not jesus.
Issa was not the son of god, did not die on the cross, and was not divine according to muhammad.
All islam did was attempt to jump start itself, by badly copying Judaism and Christianity.

Originally posted by neformore

Originally posted by ThinksYouAreAnIdiot

Because, whether you want to admit it or nor, there is virtually no theological basis in christianity for violence, whereas there is massive theological justification for violence in islam.
In point of fact there is only one incident in the entire New testament ehich can even be streched to justify violence, the incident ith jesus and the money lenders in the temple. In order to find any biblical justification for violence, one must go back to the Old testament, which for christians, is merly history supporting jesus's claim to be the messiah.

The Crusades.

The Spanish Inquisition.

The Salem Witch Trials.

The Burning of Heretics.

....and more recently you could argue that Hitler was a committed christian who carried out the holocaust because of his religious belief that christ was persecuted by jews, and then even more recently there are the actions of the IRA.

Oh theres no basis for these in religion, of course, but they were carried out in the name of religion, in much the same way that some of the acts carried out by a minority of muslims are being carried out in the name of their religion.

You tar everyone with the same brush, and thats the point here.

If you call someone a bastard for long enough they'll turn into one eventually because they'll get fed up with the label.

Riiight.
Becuas ethe enjoider to "slay the infidels wherever you find them" isn't a direct justification for violence.
Fact, islam is at its base, a violent ideology which spreads through conquest. It has been sincde the time of Muhammad. He himself engaged in over 700 battles, and personally killed hundreds.
True many muslims do not engage in violent act, but that is in spite of islam, not because of it.
The difference is this.
A christian who engages in violence is being a bad christian, a muslim who does not wage jihad, is being a bad muslim.

Originally posted by Blaine91555
I think the truth is more like you personally have a "wildly violent" attitude against Christians.

That is untrue. My statement remains true.

I do not know what made hate hundreds of millions of peaceful people. Christians believe only two things to be honest. Love God and Love your neighbor.

You must not know very many christians. People that are christian tend to have lots of other ideas and beleifs, more than two.

I'm truly confused about the board rules and this is my last post. If these constant attacks on people based on religion are OK here, it is not a place I should be.

This is a place where ideas are discussed, if you consider a truthful comment to be too much for you, then goodbye.

martin2020
I went to Blackpool recently with the wife and was amazed that the Muslims wer in big numbers

And what, pray tell, is wrong with people immigrating to another country?

We have become alienated from these people because they refuse to live to our laws.

Please cite some examples of the muslim population in general refusing to live by british law.

What about the rights of British people

They are British, and People too.

The riots in France and the decisions in Belgium are awakening calls.

Indeed. You can see from that situation that the muslims were pushed to the edges of society, made to live in slums, and prevented from assimilating with French society, the results were riots. Do the same in England, see how it works for ya.

The Australians have the right idea........they have refused to allow muslims who want to cause disruption into their country

Fair enough. Hell, they should refuse to allow anyone in their country that wants to cause trouble, not just muslims who do.

spencerjohnstone
I agree with that. I am sick and tired of Mmuslims forcing their ways on to the rest of us for change.

And what muslim laws have you recently been forced to take up?

They dont abid by the Law then they should etheir be kicked out of the country or jailed simple.

And when aren't they?
Since when does a white guy get kicked out of england or america for breaking the law, by the way?

The vast majority of the worlds approximately 1 and a quarter billion Muslims are law abiding, neighborly, average people living their lives little different than their Christian or Jewish neighbors. But, not doing anything isn't news. If you are basing your image of what the average Muslim is like on the people who make the news, you will get a very inaccurate picture indeed. I know Muslims who are exceptional individuals. They are kind, generous, respectful, and very pleasant to spend time with. It is my personal view that some people don't believe that is possible, like the poster above who says there are only terrorists, and supporters. B.S. What about the thousands of Palestinians who publically mourned 911? They showed their sorrow and offered their compassionate condolences.
It is never the case that a newspaper headline reads, 'Christian Terrorist'. Many so called Christians have committed horrendous crimes, and I don't accept the 'they aren't true Christians' defence. Muslim terrorists are no different. The Qu'ran says 'Allah loveth not aggressors.' Hitler said he was Christian, the KKK called themselves Christian, Jim Jones preached Christianity, etc. The history books are full of murderers who called themselves Christians.
The comment about being surprised at the number of Muslims is a typical attitude. 'Its overrun.' 'They're taking over.' etc. Well, I say welcome to Canada, Muslim immigrants. When I hear people suggest stopping immigration, I sometimes suggest that maybe they should leave, unless they are Native American, because everyone else in an immigrant.
In Vancouver, there are large communities from all over the world, and I love it. I once sat in a sauna and listened to four conversations, all in different languages, none of which were English, and though I couldn't understand a word, I was happy. What a place, where people are starting to drop their guard and accept different people as being normal people just like them. As a final thought, I also see little difference between a freedom fighter hero, and a terrorist, it all depends on your perspective.

Originally posted by ubermunche
Read up on it we’ve experienced problems, intergration, assimilation, tolerance, radical Islam you know.

These issues of integration apply to almost any minority that comes to the UK. The West Indians in the sixties ("rivers of blood"... I don't see any, actually) or the Ugandan Asians in the seventies. The actions of a tiny vocal minority are being blown out of all proportion.

I asked you for some evidence...

Where are these dirty bombs? ...Please, please find me some actual hard evidence that any "muslim terrorist" actually got within a thousand miles of the specific materials required to make a dirty bomb.

You have given me none... but then tried to turn it around by asking me to prove a negative. I don't know if you are aware of this (if you are, nice try, but that kind of sneakiness doesn't wash with me) but you can't prove a negative. I asked you for any hard evidence that dirty bombs are something other than propaganda by governments who, as we know from bitter experience, are prepared to lie to us to get us involved in a war for oil.

I'm looking for evidence myself... and I'm not seeing much. For example:

He told the court: "I remember I was watching on a Wednesday, the Prime Minister's Questions, and we just made a comment, 'Can you imagine if you dropped a bomb right there and then? You would take out all the MPs.' " Asked who had made the comment, Mr Khyam answered: "I did." Asked what the reaction of the others was, he said: "They just laughed."

The defence barrister, Joel Bennathan, then asked: "Was that a serious proposition?" Mr Khyam replied: "No."

The Independent

This is a long way from doing anything about it.

are we allowed to challenge that or do they get an allowance?

Challenge by all means, but let's try to keep some perspective and allow for the fact that. yes, Muslims and indeed people who look like Muslims are the subject of paranoia and they are going to get pretty upset with that the longer it goes on.

Originally posted by TG
This is very worrying. I think ALL muslims should be removed from the UK permanently. Why they are allowed into our country is beyond me.

So you think we should have chucked out all the catholics of irish descent in the 1970s then?

What about all the French and Spanish - they might be Basque terrorists you know.

Oh, and all the Americans need to go as well, as they could be extremist right wing Christians and/or Creationist.

Any one who likes animals should also be chucked out in case they are 'animal front' terrorists. And for similar reasons we'd best get rid of thoise opposed to abortions. Just to be safe.

Originally posted by ubermunche
...show ME hard evidence that what you believe isn’t a mish mash of speculation, circumstantial evidence and plain old incompetence presented as a sinister govt/media agenda. Prove to me that there are no terrorists...

As I've already said, it's impossible to prove a negative... but you might find Ludicrous Diversion interesting viewing.

"I don't think people should distinguish crime and terrorism too easily" - Ian Blair on GMTV.

These issues of integration apply to almost any minority that comes to the UK. The West Indians in the sixties ("rivers of blood"... I don't see any, actually) or the Ugandan Asians in the seventies. The actions of a tiny vocal minority are being blown out of all proportion.

I asked you for some evidence…

There has been blood though hasn’t there and a week later a further attempt was made to shed more, which thankfully failed. I don’t see that as blowing things out of proportion, you may, I don’t. To reiterate, the issue is not about whether it be a majority or tiny minority it’s about having the freedom to raise concerns and examine these without being shouted down as some kind of re-actionary knee jerk racist/little Englander/paranoid fantasist. The irony being as this thread has unfolded that the originator of the relevant comments is himself a muslim.

You have given me none... but then tried to turn it around by asking me to prove a negative. I don't know if you are aware of this (if you are, nice try, but that kind of sneakiness doesn't wash with me) but you can't prove a negative. I asked you for any hard evidence that dirty bombs are something other than propaganda by governments who, as we know from bitter experience, are prepared to lie to us to get us involved in a war for oil.

Oh I’m aware of that little canard alright, I’ve just always thought it’s a dubious little piece of intellectual sleight of hand rather than a serious aid to deduction.
‘There are NO cats in that box!’
Open the box….it’s empty, we’ve just proved a negative. How about that!
And I used dirty bombs as an example of how a minorities actions can have a huge impact in response to the view that it’s only a small minority of radicals causing problems. Your implication seems to be that if I can’t come up with any hard evidence for dirty bombs (which I never claimed in the first place) it makes a mockery of any concerns regarding terrorists and acts of mass destruction, that’s kind of sneaky too isn’t it? As for how likely it is I’ll leave that to those who have more knowledge on the subject but, given the potential for destruction such an act could have, I’m not going to feel completely satisfied with ‘unlikely’.

External Source

He told the court: "I remember I was watching on a Wednesday, the Prime Minister's Questions, and we just made a comment, 'Can you imagine if you dropped a bomb right there and then? You would take out all the MPs.' " Asked who had made the comment, Mr Khyam answered: "I did." Asked what the reaction of the others was, he said: "They just laughed."

The defence barrister, Joel Bennathan, then asked: "Was that a serious proposition?" Mr Khyam replied: "No."

The Independent

This is a long way from doing anything about it.

What does this prove or disprove in the greater scheme of things other than if it had been a non muslim talking about a mosque full of people or say a straight man about a gay bar full of people we’d all think him pretty despicable as it is he seems to be being portrayed a s a martyr.

Challenge by all means, but let's try to keep some perspective and allow for the fact that. yes, Muslims and indeed people who look like Muslims are the subject of paranoia and they are going to get pretty upset with that the longer it goes on.

And non muslims are the subject of hate and malice and the longer that goes on the more upset and paranoid they get, it’s a bummer that it’s not so black and white as we’d like it to be but it really calls for a little bit of effort on BOTH sides to put themselves in the other persons shoes otherwise the minority of agitators has achieved their aim.

1. My nextdoor neighbour to the right is a Muslim, and afghani muslim, a very devote one at that, he arived in belgium on a boat, with nothing more then the rags he was wearing. By now, he has worked his ass of and brought his wife and kids over to Belgium, the neighbourhood I live in is pritty exclusive for higher middle class living, this man fought side by side with Osama against the russians and has the battle wounds and a couple of missing fingers to prove it.

His wife and daughter wear traditional clothing, he doesn't shave and they follow the rules of their religion to the T.

Hes the friendlyest person I know in the entire street. He even comes ask if he can help us mowing the lawn.

He knows very well I'm not part of any religion and loves to listen to my perspective on what I think about the religions that exist. I also love hearing his input about Islam.

2. My nextdoor neighbour to the left is a Catholic, born here, living on disability and a pre-pension, hes registered as 100% handicaped, while I see him go for daily runs and amateur cyclist competitions at least 1ce a week.

They are very devote Catholics and some of the few people I know to still goto church 2ce a week. His daughter is like a nun, so shy she won't even talk to me (and thats a pitty, shes bloody hot!) and his wife thinks her only purpouse to exist is to feed her husband, clean, do laundry and make babies.

The guys has called the cops to come over to our place a multitude of times, some of the reasons included "their barbeque smokes to much" and "theres a suspicious arab running around in their backyard".

3. My neighbour across the street is a Christian, a dutch evangelical one. An elderly couple that spends it time gossiping and causing fights between people on our street and for the rest pretends they are the nicest and holyest of people around.

At one time, their children all live in houses next to them (they live in a 90° bend, so there were a total of 6 houses that had them and their grown up children living in it).

By now, not a single one of their children still lives here, because the gossiping and fighting spilled over to inside that family and they all hate eachothers guts.



Just something I'd like to share.

I'd talk about the other neightbour I have, an Atheist gay couple, great chaps, both hard working and intelligent. But since they don't have any religion it doesn't apply here.

Originally posted by ubermunche
There has been blood though hasn’t there and a week later a further attempt was made to shed more,

Check the documentary. I actually HAVE given you some evidence that this is in some measure a government deception. You have still given me no hard evidence for dirty bombs being anywhere near the terrorists, despite raising it as a concern.

You're defending your right to be hysterical. Go ahead, knock yourself out, but don't expect people not to try and point out the Daily-Mail-disgusted-of-Sevenoaks aspect to the whole thing.

‘There are NO cats in that box!’
Open the box….it’s empty, we’ve just proved a negative. How about that!

If you think there's any parallel between proving there are no cats in a box and proving there are no terrorists in the UK, I have utter respect for your powers of self delusion. This is the real world. Prove to me that there are no aliens. Prove that the royal family are not David Icke-style shapeshifting aliens. Try proving those negatives and you'll have rather more difficulty.

And I used dirty bombs as an example of how a minorities actions can have a huge impact

But NOT if these dirty bombs don't exist. If they don't - and you have yet to give any evidence whatsoever that they do, and that radical Muslims have their hands on them - then this is just a chimeral. This format is about debate, and occasionally it's nice to call in some external sources that bolster your point.

What does this prove or disprove in the greater scheme of things other than if it had been a non muslim talking about a mosque full of people or say a straight man about a gay bar full of people we’d all think him pretty despicable as it is he seems to be being portrayed a s a martyr.

Again, sloppy thinking.

I'm not portraying him as a martyr. I'm saying there's little or no hard evidence that he's done anything, which is different. I'm also saying that moderate Muslims are going to feel demonised, which is only what the radical cleric at the top of the thread was saying. Just because he's wrong on some things doesn't mean he's wrong on everything.

Look at the documentary. Read up on the Guildford Four and the other people wrongly convicted of terrorist offences by our boys in blue. Their track record is NOT GOOD and we trust them at our peril.

I say bring it on, the way us whites treat people and our history of it makes us targets for everything we deserve. Were the only people who in modern times export war, commit murder and mayhem to all parts of the world for are own selfish interests.
Then the righteous start bitching when someone hits back or stands up for themselves, you call them names like insurgents and terrorists. How about calling them fighters of oppression, murder and robbery.
Well try this for size, walk out of your house now and go to your neignours house and for no reason what so ever attack him and his family. One of two things will happen they will either fight back or report you to the authorities.
Is that not what you would expect? so just remember when we use our armed forces in illegal or unjust wars then expect to get a smack in the face.