Really

I have some issues with some of the conspiracy hounds that are abounding. Do you really think the government is behind hte 9/11 attacks? I've heard all kinds of "reasoning" given for why the Bush administration and our government or the owners of the WTC would have for creating a "fake" attack or allowing the attack to occur.

It really amazes me that people would actually consider it a valid argument that our government would assist or openly allow 3,000 people to perish including almost 100 police officers and over 300 fire fighters.

I do know one thing ... If I held this same opinion and truly thought the government of my country was so corrupt as to participate in an attack, I sure wouldn't be hanging around to discuss it. I would be off living in Canada or some European nation. Why would a fellow American who believes these stories are true not remove themselves from our dangerous country and the reaches of our corrupt government?

Just my 2 cents.

-STL

At first, I felt the exact same way as you.

However after 5 years and everything that has happened... I'm not ready to admit that our Government was behind it, but I certainly think that something doesn't smell right... I just don't know what it is yet.

You're thinking that the people who hold positions of power who orchestrated the attacks actually care about U.S. citizen lives. If they sacrificed some to start a war, then clearly they do not.

Where could you go in Canada or Europe that did not have U.S. military bases on it? Where could you go in Europe that isn't under the influence of the U.S. spawned post-WWII Marshall Plan constructed Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development or other U.S. economic/military influence? What about the reports of War on Terror based Depleted Uranium environmental contamination of Europe?

Even with all that, its not easy to just get up and relocate to another country if you don't speak the language or have the opportunity to even find a job there.

Originally posted by SmallMindsBigIdeas

It really amazes me that people would actually consider it a valid argument that our government would assist or openly allow 3,000 people to perish including almost 100 police officers and over 300 fire fighters.

www.pearlharbor41.com...


I'm not saying such is the case. However, based on our government's history, the possibility seems to exist. No?

Sad, that.

Why did I expect to see the owl in this thread?



SMBI, you are right, but logic doesn't apply here.

Originally posted by SmallMindsBigIdeas
I do know one thing ... If I held this same opinion and truly thought the government of my country was so corrupt as to participate in an attack, I sure wouldn't be hanging around to discuss it. I would be off living in Canada or some European nation. Why would a fellow American who believes these stories are true not remove themselves from our dangerous country and the reaches of our corrupt government?

So, you think it would be better to turn tail and run then? I thought our government was founded on the principle "for the people, by the people"? I guess in your mind, if you don't like something about the government, instead of voting or doing what you can to change it...it's just better to up and move somewhere else with your tail between your legs? How cowardly IMO.

Yes, if I thought my government was corrupt to the point of mass murder ... would move for the safety of my family and myself. A government which had strayed so far from the "for the people, by the people" concept of government could not be changed simply with voting. Cowardly, perhaps, but I could live with that.

Originally posted by Griff

So, you think it would be better to turn tail and run then? I thought our government was founded on the principle "for the people, by the people"? I guess in your mind, if you don't like something about the government, instead of voting or doing what you can to change it...it's just better to up and move somewhere else with your tail between your legs? How cowardly IMO.

Originally posted by HowardRoark

SMBI, you are right, but logic doesn't apply here.

Who's logic?

Why does it not apply here?

SmallMindsBigIdeas has posed his/her questions, quandary and ideas seemingly seeking clarification and/or response from the members here on ATS.

Why the, apparently, snide remark that offers nothing to this discussion, HR?

At least, my curious mind wants to know.

elaborate, please.

p.s.
SmallMindsBigIdeas,
Thanks for the post and your concerns, I hope you enjoy your time on ATS!


[edit: sp?]

[edit on 9/12/2006 by 12m8keall2c]

Although you are probably right, do you think every person born American somehow precludes that person from having evil jeans or intentions?

I am not saying Bush is evil--and there certainly is no hard evidence IMHO that 911 was an inside job--but many countries have leaders who then go on to murder large numbers of his own citizens.

And let's consider the Bush family track record before considering whether Bush has evil jeans or tendencies.....

- BushSr's father Prescott is alleged to have Nazi sympathies, and worked to launder Nazi money during WWII. During and after WWII, Prescott supposedly worked with many extremists here in America (and later, with former Nazis) to fight against FDR's liberal policies and legacy.

- Neil Bush is front and center a player in the Lincoln Savings and Loan disaster.

- GW Bush wins FL in 2000 despite the fact it is later learned that most people voted for Gore. A coincidence that Jeb Bush was the governor at the time?

- The Bush family has strong personal and business ties with Osama's direct family.

- Bush has direct ties (Ginsberg et al) with the Swiftboaters who routinely attack decorated US servicemen even as Bush himself (a man who obviously pulled strings to avoid combat) is described by these fascist rightwing vets as an honorable soldier.

- A Texan is the VP when JFK is assassinated. Some feisty Texas Nazi's perhaps, wanting a Texas President?

- BushSr is a Texas VP when Reagan is shot. Some feisty Texas Nazi's perhaps, wanting a Texas President?

- BushSr used to be the CIA chief.

- Bush meets with oil CEOs to design energy policy, and--voila!--gas prices rise to record levels and US energy companies create fake blackouts in Western states in 2000 to steal 100s billions of state treasuries.

- Bush invades Iraq despite evidence that he was warned that Iraq was not a threat and had no 911 conections. Indeed, Bush intentionally misled this country such that over 40% of Americans today think Saddam caused 911. What kind fon President could lie about 911 like that?

- There is evidence that Bush cheated in Ohio in the 2004 election. Exit polls suggest a Kerry landslide. Bush was told by Karen Hughes that night he lost before the numbers magically (in a repeat from 2000) reversed.

- American fascists have on occassion executed real and fake anthrazx attacks against Democratic officials to intimidate them at opportune moments (such as just before passage of the Patriot act). Were these attacks made by people who were former CIA agents or other right-wing veterans, or worse?

Ordering a war, is not much different than picking up a phone and calling the bin Laden family and asking them to order a terrorist attack. I aint saying it happened, because there is no evidence. But the coincidences are huge, the Bush family track record is disturbing, and the moral character of GW Bush is in no way sacrosanct.

Originally posted by SmallMindsBigIdeas
If I held this same opinion and truly thought the government of my country was so corrupt as to participate in an attack, I sure wouldn't be hanging around to discuss it. I would be off living in Canada or some European nation.

Why should the people leave thier own country?

The government should leave.

Originally posted by SmallMindsBigIdeas
It really amazes me that people would actually consider it a valid argument that our government would assist or openly allow 3,000 people to perish including almost 100 police officers and over 300 fire fighters.

Then you must not be familiar with at least a couple things going on in the Mid-East at this very moment. Or what happened through the 60's and 70's in a little Asian country. Our military makes the biggest part of its business by killing people. If you take offense to the killing of fellow citizens, why not take offense to the killings of others? In the real world, all people are people, and only your personal psychology, reinforced constantly in language, current events, the way history is taught, etc., ever makes you see otherwise. Incidentally, I think this is also what creates wars and violence and ignorance in the first place.

I'm of the same opinion about 9/11 as Elevatedone, I don't think they necessarily did it, but it was'nt uknown to them.

Why would a fellow American who believes these stories are true not remove themselves from our dangerous country and the reaches of our corrupt government

Alot of reasons, mainly because alot of us don't have the financial backing to just up and move, and than you have the problem of learning the native language, getting a job, and all that kind of stuff.
And besides, it's just like In Nothing We Trust said;

Why should the people leave thier own country?

The government should leave.

This country was founded as a democracy of, for and by the people.
Why should we leave, when it's the government who would fall as the minority.

The government didnt have to be BEHIND the attacks.

The government clearly EXPECTED them to try, being all the intel they had.

They knew Alqead had means to get around security, and had a method in which would be hard to stop.

So Bush and his cronnies didnt need to do anything accept let things remain as is, and when it happens stall while it unfolds.

How about we look at that track record shall we....

BushSr's father Prescott is alleged to have Nazi sympathies, and worked to launder Nazi money during WWII.

Not quite...

The central charge against Prescott Bush has a basis in fact. In 1942, under the Trading With the Enemy Act, the U.S. government seized several companies in which he had an interest. Prescott at the time was an investment banker with Brown Brothers Harriman (BBH), which had funneled U.S. capital into Germany during the 1920s and '30s. Among the seized companies was the Union Banking Corporation (UBC) of New York, which was controlled by German industrialist Fritz Thyssen. Thyssen had been an early financier of the Nazi party--in fact, in 1941 he published a book entitled I Paid Hitler. Ergo, Prescott helped finance the Nazis.

However, further research shows this....

Prescott's involvement with Nazi finance is more complicated. Though Thyssen had been an ardent backer of the Nazis in the early days, he broke with them in 1938 after the Kristallnacht pogrom against the Jews. He fled to Switzerland the following year, and Hitler confiscated his fortune and stripped him of his citizenship. In I Paid Hitler Thyssen confessed his role in financing the Nazis and denounced the Führer

www.straightdope.com...

In other words, almost three years before the United States entry into World War II, Prescott Bush's only tie to the Nazi government (Fritz Thyssen) left the Nazi Party, fled Germany and denounced Hitler.

Was there German money in the bank that Bush was a banker with...yes. Did he have Nazi sympathies...no. Prescott Bush wasnt elected to the Senate until after World War II, do you really think that post World War II Americans would have elected a Nazi sympathizer?

GW Bush wins FL in 2000 despite the fact it is later learned that most people voted for Gore. A coincidence that Jeb Bush was the governor at the time?

Actually, GW Bush had more votes than Al Gore in Florida (despite the best efforts of the democrats to create more votes) and as such was awarded Florida's electors and eventually the Presidency. Al Gore did have more popular votes nationwide, but we dont elect Presidents based on the popular vote.

The Bush family has strong personal and business ties with Osama's direct family.

Not really, one of Osama's brothers (who denouced Osama LONG before 9/11) was associated with the Carlyle Group. Wouldnt really describe that as "strong" ties.

- BushSr used to be the CIA chief.

So what?

Personal note, how come one family, who has served this country for decades but are adulterous, criminal drunks are revered as our Royal Family (the Kennedys) and another family who has served our country for decades is viewed as vicious criminals despite a total lack of evidence (the Bushes)

Bush meets with oil CEOs to design energy policy, and--voila!--gas prices rise to record levels and US energy companies create fake blackouts in Western states in 2000 to steal 100s billions of state treasuries.

ALL presidents meet with CEOs from all sorts of US industries to get advice on forming policies. In many cases the CEOs and others associated with their companies are given conditional security clearances to see intell on other countries industries to help our Government formulate its strategies for trade negotiations. Especially energy and agriculture.

- There is evidence that Bush cheated in Ohio in the 2004 election. Exit polls suggest a Kerry landslide. Bush was told by Karen Hughes that night he lost before the numbers magically (in a repeat from 2000) reversed.

Let's see...the numbers in 2000 didnt "magically" reverse. The mass media all used the same polling company (i forget their name) and made the same mistakes. Only ONE outlet AP disregarded those numbers because they were running separate exit polls and the AP polls were not matching the polling company's numbers. If you do the research you will find that AP was the ONLY correct media outlet the whole night in 2000.

Same private company, same stupid mistakes made in 2004. With once again, the exception being AP.

Originally posted by Swampfox46_1999


Personal note, how come one family, who has served this country for decades but are adulterous, criminal drunks are revered as our Royal Family (the Kennedys) and another family who has served our country for decades is viewed as vicious criminals despite a total lack of evidence (the Bushes)

Well, George Bsh Snr still has his hand over a lot of the CIA intel.
He definately has an influence over GWBush,
He invaded Iraq in Gw1 and now his SON has again invaded, and occupied the same country, using the same men in office as GBUSH Snr.
Being an aluldterous drunk didnt seem to put his country in the war path, and it didnt have its marines killed, for a pointless war.
An extremely suspicous attack didnt occur during the kennedies, and the kennedies never used a haneous crime to invade another country.
After Kennedy was assinated, the world investigated.
If bush is ever assinated, could you imaigne a response?

While I dont go along with prescott being a nazi sympathiser..
He certainly knew of his OWN invovlement.

The name of BUSH will forever be americans achillies heal.

SmallMinds, look at it this way.

We argue about this and that regarding preplaced explosives and such because we can't agree on why the buildings came down. The Pentagon footage is more of a slap in the face than anything else, not enough substance there to do much with.

But what is flat-out obvious and true is that our entire premise for going to war in Iraq was bogus. This is well-documented and all over the news. Netanyahu, the former PM of Israel, even said during an interview that we were "guessing" about Iraq's WMD.

Yet our administration fudged intel reports and relied on whims and personal agendas instead, again something that's all over the place. Bush was already planning Iraq before he was sworn in, again this is something documented. Intel reports warned the hell out of us of an attack on 9/11 involving airplanes, nothing was done. The list of suspicious activity and just plain lies goes on for miles, I won't list 'em all here.

So it comes down to two things; either Bush and co., or some intel organization within the administration, or both, took an active role in the attacks, or (most likely imho) the same parties saw it coming and chose to use it to further an agenda, a la Pearl Harbor.

Either way you look at it, the corruption is there. Exactly where it lies, we can only dig and dig to maybe find out.

en.wikipedia.org...

On the morning of September 11, 2001, George W. Bush's father, George H. W. Bush, was meeting with Osama bin Laden's brother, Shafig bin Laden, in the Ritz-Carlton Hotel, Washington, on Carlyle Group business.

So yes, the Bush's have quite CLOSE ties to the Bin Ladens'. The bin ladens have invested in the Bush oil adventures from early on. And let's not forget the Dubai port deal and Bush's lie that he knew nothing of that deal until the week it became public.

I am also quite aware of the conflicting articles/sources of the Prescott bush Nazi connections. Despite some research on my part, I have been unable to deduce the truth of the matter. Given the absence of a clear exoneration by the major media of P.Bush despite all the continuing rumours and conflicting articles, I tend to believe there is at least a smoking gun. At the very least, this is worth noting along with the other items in my laundry list--all of which suggest that we at the least need to keep a close eye on the Bush family.

And let's not forget the lincoln Savings and Loan disasters (Neil Bush), the Anthrax attacks (some fascist American with anthrax knowledge and access--ex-CIA??--seems to be using these threats to help the Bush political agenda--even as recently as last January, a Anthrax attack was threatened after a Hillary speech denouncing fear-mongering).

en.wikipedia.org...-electoral_studies.2Frecounts

A Gore win was possible under various (all legal in FL law) scenarios--mainly if Gore had requested a full recount of all legal ballots, including overvotes, he would have won. But when you also consider that the GOP tactics included felon list purges of 1000s of legal Dem voters, and voting machine shortages in Dem districts, voter registration snafus that favored the GOP, and mysterious ballot designs in various Dem locations that aided Bush, the overall picture is that had every legal FL citizen had his vote counted correctly, Gore would have easily won. So, is it a coincidence that Jeb Bush was the presiding governor during this election and that his brother somehow eeked out a win under dubious circumstances? Of course!

www.washingtonpost.com...


The Swiftboat vets and their tactics are as fascist as you can get. A White House lawyer (Ginsberg) had to resign shortly after Bush claimed he had no connections to the swiftboaters. Ginsberg was found to have been directly coordinating with the swiftboaters.

BushSr's prior relationship in the CIA is quite important in considering whether the Bush family has access to paramilitary style vets or operatives and resources regarding Anthrax attacks, swiftboat organizations, strong-arm thugs such as used during the 2000 FL attack on gvmt recount efforts in Broward county by paid GOP operatives, assassination scenarios involving reagan (when BushSr was VP), 911 theories, and the Bush/Cheney CIA intel cheryy-picking of Iraqi threat assessments.

While I would not claim that all of the things I list are proof, the overall pattern suggests the Bush family needs to be watched very closely. I personally believe they have indeed engaged in various illegal doings (some of which I listed), and are the dirtbags of American politics in that, if any American family is a ruthless fascist political machine, they are the ones. The Kennedy's are cub scouts in comparison.

The whole point I was trying to make is that all Americans are not honorable do-wellers as the first post implies. It is just as likely that America can breed a Hitler-type as Germany did. It is not out of the realm of possibility that with the pattern of actual and suspicious Bush activities I have hinted at, that they are worse criminals than even YOU imagined.

BTW, you call the 2000 reversal a mistake. I call it a reversal.

Same happened in 2004.

Various polling companies including Zogby projected Kerry exit-poll landslide. CNN and other news companies suddenly switched their projections in the early AM. google it for yourswelf. Karen Hughes briefed Bush that he had lost to Kerry.

Also, there have been several Ohio GOP indictments relating to voting fraud, and there are other ongoing investigations

There is overwhelming documented machine errors 95% of which favor Bush. Read the RFK report. Go to Thom Hartman forum and read articles there. Go to common ground common sense too, or bradblog.

Blackwell was caught systematicaly ripping up 1000s of Dem voting registration forms when he said only certain kinds of forms with certain thicknesses would be accepted. Black communities had 6-8 hour waiting lines, white communities had 15 minute waits.

Traditinal Dem precints in Ohio went for Bush despite polling in favor of Kerry.

San Diego machines were decertified but used anyway after allowing poll workers to take them home before the election.

Lou Dobbs and catherine Crier and Olbermann have documented various issues regarding how our voting machines are completely untrustworthy and are easily hacked. Here in DeLand, FL voting machines had vote totals magically transformed into small Gore margins (from large ones) after memory cards were swapped out (google: DeLand Diebold memo Volusia county).

The Diebold CEO publicly stated he would personally guarantee a Bush victory in Ohio.

GOP Senator Chuck Hagel, a former owner of a voting machine manifacturer, mysteriously won his Illinois election after trailing badly in polls and after installing his machines in his state.

The list goes on and on.....

SmallMindsBigIdeas
It really amazes me that people would actually consider it a valid argument that our government would assist or openly allow 3,000 people to perish including almost 100 police officers and over 300 fire fighters.

It really amazes me that people would actually not consider this argument, if only for a moment, and expect others to accept their ignorance as proof of anything other than their ignorance.

SmallMindsBigIdeas
I do know one thing ... If I held this same opinion and truly thought the government of my country was so corrupt as to participate in an attack, I sure wouldn't be hanging around to discuss it. I would be off living in Canada or some European nation.

That's not only ignorant, that's also cowardly.


Just my 2 cents.

[edit on 13-9-2006 by nQuire]

Originally posted by Lomillialor
The Diebold CEO publicly stated he would personally guarantee a Bush victory in Ohio.

And after he delivered on this promise he was forced to resign... nothing fishy with Diebold...