Mundane conspiracies in the Holy Bible

i retract what i said...

their is no way men do not know of their actions regardless of a piece of paper or papyrus...

unless they are totally ignorant to their surrounding, and in such cases i pray for the they recieve wisdom over foolish knowledge...

It should be automatic then also known as morals/common sense which is really what having a conscience is.

Indeed we all know innately that we have sinned (conscience) and have fallen short of the Glory of God. But then we become justified by Grace in Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ for forgiveness of our sins (imputed righteousness). All should be aware that they have sinned and need to be forgiven by God.

right actions is not right that is a technicality and seems like more than a sin...

Indeed we all know innately that we have sinned (conscience) and have fallen short of the Glory of God. But then we become justified by Grace in Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ for forgiveness of our sins (imputed righteousness). All should be aware that they have sinned and need to be forgiven by God.

Thankyou for your reply. However there is one problem. If Jesus Christ died for the sins of the Whole World - 1 tim 4:10 - Jesus Christ, the Saviour of All Men, Specially Those who Believe (kjv), then Why do people insist on asking God to forgive them over and over for something he's already accomplished? Isn't that like telling God that they didn't really believe he did it right the first time and that Jesus' Blood was not in fact as Powerful as that of Bulls and Goats?

[Edited on 4-11-2003 by Sapphire]

i did not grow up in a church, so i don't know church rhetoric...

but when i do things i shouldn't to my body i ask the father to forgive me...

i think the jewish added their take on CHRIST's passing that is different form that of the true following of christ...

Thankyou for your reply. However there is one problem. If Jesus Christ died for the sins of the Whole World - 1 tim 4:10 - Jesus Christ, the Saviour of All Men, Specially Those who Believe (kjv), then Why do people insist on asking God to forgive them over and over for something he's already accomplished? Isn't that like telling God that they didn't really believe he did it right the first time and that Jesus' Blood was not in fact as Powerful as that of Bulls and Goats?

The point is that many will reject the Love of God (Remember the statement "Rather a king in Hell than a slave in Heaven"). There are those who hate God. Also Grace is a gift, but you must ask for it. There are those who will reject the Gift of Salvation. However for those who do accept the Gift of Salvation, they only need to ask once. I guess it is because maybe people may think that they didn't get it right the first time. Also I am a Calvinist and believe in the doctrine of Limited Atonement (that is Jesus only suffered for the sins of those who will accept the Gift of Salvation and not the whole world). The Wrath of God for the sins of those who will not accept Grace is still hanging.

Originally posted by jagdflieger

Thankyou for your reply. However there is one problem. If Jesus Christ died for the sins of the Whole World - 1 tim 4:10 - Jesus Christ, the Saviour of All Men, Specially Those who Believe (kjv), then Why do people insist on asking God to forgive them over and over for something he's already accomplished? Isn't that like telling God that they didn't really believe he did it right the first time and that Jesus' Blood was not in fact as Powerful as that of Bulls and Goats?

The point is that many will reject the Love of God (Remember the statement "Rather a king in Hell than a slave in Heaven"). There are those who hate God. Also Grace is a gift, but you must ask for it. There are those who will reject the Gift of Salvation. However for those who do accept the Gift of Salvation, they only need to ask once. I guess it is because maybe people may think that they didn't get it right the first time. Also I am a Calvinist and believe in the doctrine of Limited Atonement (that is Jesus only suffered for the sins of those who will accept the Gift of Salvation and not the whole world). The Wrath of God for the sins of those who will not accept Grace is still hanging.

Ok i understand what your trying to say here. But i cannot conceive of God being that cruel, i mean accepting a gift is far different than being tossed into a hellish inferno because you chose not to take an offering. We are all sinners according to the Bible, so how is we're able to make any kind of choice regarding our eternal existance, Is my mercy greater than that of Gods because, i couldnt do that to my worst enemy. Surely Gods Mercy Endureth Forever. What lesson is there in an endless suffering hell, there is No lesson in it because it never ends.

and all this time i thought i was the only "unplugged" peron here...

Ok i understand what your trying to say here. But i cannot conceive of God being that cruel, i mean accepting a gift is far different than being tossed into a hellish inferno because you chose not to take an offering. We are all sinners according to the Bible, so how is we're able to make any kind of choice regarding our eternal existance, Is my mercy greater than that of Gods because, i couldnt do that to my worst enemy. Surely Gods Mercy Endureth Forever. What lesson is there in an endless suffering hell, there is No lesson in it because it never ends.

First who says Hell is an inferno? Hell is separation from God. Should God allow those who hate Him into His home? (which is Heaven). Should God allow those who reject Him into His home? Should God allow those who will rebel against His rightful rule into His home? What would you do with those people, those people who want to go their own way, those people who hate God, those people who reject Him? Would you allow those kind of people in your home?

[Edited on 4-11-2003 by jagdflieger]

in an order of magnitudes they are polar opposites...
in the physical there is right and left....

with the father there just is...

yet here their is the distinction between right and wrong correct?...

Originally posted by jagdflieger

Ok i understand what your trying to say here. But i cannot conceive of God being that cruel, i mean accepting a gift is far different than being tossed into a hellish inferno because you chose not to take an offering. We are all sinners according to the Bible, so how is we're able to make any kind of choice regarding our eternal existance, Is my mercy greater than that of Gods because, i couldnt do that to my worst enemy. Surely Gods Mercy Endureth Forever. What lesson is there in an endless suffering hell, there is No lesson in it because it never ends.

First who says Hell is an inferno? Hell is separation from God. Should God allow those who hate Him into His home? (which is Heaven). Should God allow those who reject Him into His home? Should God allow those who will rebel against His rightful rule into His home? What would you do with those people, those people who want to go their own way, those people who hate God, those people who reject Him? Would you allow those kind of people in your home?

[Edited on 4-11-2003 by jagdflieger]

Ok first of all thats like saying Would i reject my own kids because they were misbehaving or because they chose another path other than the one i wanted them to take? Absolutely Not! As for Hell being a burning Inferno, a lot of Christianity agrees thats what it is. I dont know what the other cults have to say about Hell but i don't believe in it anymore anyways so its unimportant. You said, should God reject those who reject him into his home? Well, If God did reject his own beloved Creation, he'd be denying himself and everything Jesus ever stood for as he did say Love your Enemies. So it's really quite an oxy moron statement. Either he loves us Completely or he Doesn't which is it? Also, Are we loving God out of Fear of Hell? If so then thats a Sin too. There's so many sins it's no wonder most of America's Psych Wards consist of Christians.

[Edited on 4-11-2003 by Sapphire]

Ok first of all thats like saying Would i reject my own kids because they were misbehaving or because they chose another path other than the one i wanted them to take? Absolutely Not! As for Hell being a burning Inferno, a lot of Christianity agrees thats what it is. I dont know what the other cults have to say about Hell but i don't believe in it anymore anyways so its unimportant. You said, should God reject those who reject him into his home? Well, If God did reject his own beloved Creation, he'd be denying himself and everything Jesus ever stood for as he did say Love your Enemies. So it's really quite an oxy moron statement. Either he loves us Completely or he Doesn't which is it? Also, Are we loving God out of Fear of Hell? If so then thats a Sin too. There's so many sins it's no wonder most of America's Psych Wards consist of Christians.

Well you may believe what you want to believe. However, that is not what is written in the Bible. But feel free to believe whatever you desire. I suppose that you mean to imply that Christianity is some kind of a cult by your statement "what the other cults believe".

Originally posted by jagdflieger



Well you may believe what you want to believe. However, that is not what is written in the Bible. But feel free to believe whatever you desire. I suppose that you mean to imply that Christianity is some kind of a cult by your statement "what the other cults believe".

I believe we are all loved of God thats all.

I do believe in God and i did the whole church scene too. I just found it very plastic and wasn't getting the Spiritual Insite my soul craved so i began to seek out the truth (in prayer). I don't believe there is a right or wrong way to God and I do not mean to sound argumentative in my statements, quite the opposite, i love to debate issues and to have a Voice is of the utmost importance in anyones walk and growth towards Truth. To me Christianity has become somewhat of a cultish thing in their ideas and views of God, if they'd just let Go and stop telling others how to Love him and how to act think and feel, then God could step in and do what only God can. Enlighten Us in his Love

[Edited on 4-11-2003 by Sapphire]

To me Christianity has become somewhat of a cultish thing in their ideas and views of God, if they'd just let Go and stop telling others how to Love him and how to act think and feel, then God could step in and do what only God can. Enlighten Us in his Love

The basics of Christian doctrine has not changed much in 1900 years. I posted a topic called "Basic Christian Doctrine" with linked to a web site which uses sound Biblical backing. It is the same Bible that has been used for over a thousand years. There are scholars who make sure that the translations we used to today are as close to the original text as possible. Indeed most historians would love to have as much material for such works as Tacitus as exists for the New and Old Testament. Certain concepts are presented in the Bible and well supported as not to be a matter of interpretation (such as the concept of Grace). If you do not wish to believe what is written in the Bible than do so. However, I would be amiss to state that a certain idea is based on a Biblical presentation when it is clearly not. If you do not wish to use the whole Bible, then you should not use any of the Bible to support your beliefs.

Originally posted by jagdflieger

To me Christianity has become somewhat of a cultish thing in their ideas and views of God, if they'd just let Go and stop telling others how to Love him and how to act think and feel, then God could step in and do what only God can. Enlighten Us in his Love

The basics of Christian doctrine has not changed much in 1900 years. I posted a topic called "Basic Christian Doctrine" with linked to a web site which uses sound Biblical backing. It is the same Bible that has been used for over a thousand years. There are scholars who make sure that the translations we used to today are as close to the original text as possible. Indeed most historians would love to have as much material for such works as Tacitus as exists for the New and Old Testament. Certain concepts are presented in the Bible and well supported as not to be a matter of interpretation (such as the concept of Grace). If you do not wish to believe what is written in the Bible than do so. However, I would be amiss to state that a certain idea is based on a Biblical presentation when it is clearly not. If you do not wish to use the whole Bible, then you should not use any of the Bible to support your beliefs.

hmmm well, that was rather forward of you i must say an in your face kinda reply I don't believe i should be denied the right to read the Bible and express my points of view because you happen to believe in an old story book. The Essenes were an old Religious Group too so were a lot of others, but it doesn't mean we should be denied our right and privelege as a human beings to express that simply because someone doesnt agree with us. I'm very open and it doesnt bother me in the least whether you agree with me or not. I just dont feel basing your entire existance on what someone wrote 1000 yrs ago as Absolute Truth to be entirely intelligent thats all. I'm just finding that anytime i even dare to debate with a Religious person, they end up angry or try pushing their belief down my throat and i don't agree with that, i wouldn't do that and i dont think its fair that anyone else should either, not implying you have, just expressing my views

Originally posted by Sapphire
I just dont feel basing your entire existance on what someone wrote 1000 yrs ago as Absolute Truth to be entirely intelligent thats all. I'm just finding that anytime i even dare to debate with a Religious person, they end up angry or try pushing their belief down my throat and i don't agree with that, i wouldn't do that and i dont think its fair that anyone else should either, not implying you have, just expressing my views

Hi Sapphire. I, too, have convictions in my beliefs, and do not care to force them on anyone else...just as you stated for yourself. But at the same time, I will not hesitate to share them, or defend them. So my hope is that the difference is apparent.

I think to question, or sully the Christian doctrines because they have now reached sub age is illogical. That means we can't give worth to Socrates, to Archimedes, Plato. That means Buddha's teaching are completely rejected. And when is the cut-off. If it is 200 years, we can't give worth to the words of George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, etc.

The age of the text of the gospel can't logically be used as an argument against its worth. I would argue it could very logically be used as an argument FOR its worth. I don't see the mankind's great progression in spiritual matters since the time of Christ's life, so...

Satan can't do ANYTHING without the OK from GOD. Read Job.

. I'm just finding that anytime i even dare to debate with a Religious person, they end up angry or try pushing their belief down my throat and i don't agree with that, i wouldn't do that and i dont think its fair that anyone else should either, not implying you have, just expressing my views

Who said I was angry, basically Sapphire I don't give a damn (I hope you all catch the paraphase). It seems that when certain types people express their opinion it is "pushing their belief down someones throat". The point is that Jesus advocated the Love of God in one statement and then in the next statement He made reference to the Judgement of God. Yes Jesus talked about both Salvation and Damnation. The point being made is how do you with intellectual honesty quote Jesus Christ for a message of Love without dealing with His message of Jugdement. Both messages are in the same document. Am I to believe that one is right and the other is wrong? May it never be. In this case which one are we to believe? Indeed where would we draw the line? If you use the Bible to support a statement that Jesus preached a message of Love and Salvation, then you should accept that Jesus also preached a message of Judgement and Damnation.

Originally posted by jagdflieger

Who said I was angry, basically Sapphire I don't give a damn (I hope you all catch the paraphase). It seems that when certain types people express their opinion it is "pushing their belief down someones throat". The point is that Jesus advocated the Love of God in one statement and then in the next statement He made reference to the Judgement of God. Yes Jesus talked about both Salvation and Damnation. The point being made is how do you with intellectual honesty quote Jesus Christ for a message of Love without dealing with His message of Jugdement. Both messages are in the same document. Am I to believe that one is right and the other is wrong? May it never be. In this case which one are we to believe? Indeed where would we draw the line? If you use the Bible to support a statement that Jesus preached a message of Love and Salvation, then you should accept that Jesus also preached a message of Judgement and Damnation.

Sorry Jagdflieger my intention wasn't actually to rattle your chain Maybe next time we go deep into a subject such as this i'll arm myself with a Nice Potent mug of Java and a few more hours of sleep Loved the topic and the replies though

[Edited on 4-11-2003 by Sapphire]

men are being bounded up in their homes much like jesus prorhecized and being forced into the pits...

the conspiracy? those who hated jesus then hate him today...

and then they must have really hated him since the old testament taught love friends and hate enemies...

you hate fellow man you hate jesus...
you bound your fellow man with ignorance you hate jesus...
you use the law to act in unrighteouss ways and allow none to become unbounded by proxy of ignorance you hate jesus...
you allow women to kill their children by proxy of capitol and create divided homes for fear of the return of "his" son, you hate jesus...
you spew forth ignorance in the name of the father of all creation as though men are not created equal, you hate jesus...

and as you do these things now you have done them in the past...

"not everyone who calls me 'Lord,Lord,' will enter into the kingdom of heaven, but only those who do what my FATHER in heaven wants tehm to do. when that day comes, many will say to me, 'Lord,Lord!,' in your name we spoke G-D's message, by your name we drove out many demons nd performed many miracles!"

"then i will say to them,'i never knew you. away from me, you evil doers!"...

the conspiracy?

yes, the church has been tampered with, and tainted, and is imperfect...

yes, the image of jesus portrayed today has been tampered with and tainted...

yes, most who call themselves worshiping the Father quietly worship "Him" and his minions...

yes, men are waking up to the truth...

and the war has already been won yet "His" minions would have people think that they need to kill each other to prove victorious...

conspiracy?

i think on a grand scale...