America's Funniest.........WAR CRIME VIDEOS?????????????

War crimes are an inescapable fact of life in war. It is the nature of the beast, and the beast is unleashed in the hearts and minds of many who are caught up in it.

The war crimes in Iraq are no different in that aspect. Nothing going on there that hasn't been done 100 million times before.

However, a disturbing trend has occured here. Now the war crimes are being photographed and filmed.....not by undercover war reporters seeking to expose them, but by the very people taking part in them. It is THAT that disturbs me the most.

Why, you ask? Well, think about it. When you have a camera or video recorder handy, what do you use it for? The vast majority of normal people use these devices to record things that they want to remember and reminice over later, or to capture a moment and have it forever locked in a frame of life. When your child is born, you photograph it, ebcause you want to remember that moment of life's beginning. You photograph your wedding, because it is a once in a lifetime event that you want to remember. You videotape your dog when he starts doing something funny or entertaining, like riding on a motorcycle. You videotape a sports event because it is entertaining.

Sometimes, you might, by accident, film a crime in progress. You continue to film it because you hope, when you turn the tape into the cops, it will help them catch the perp.

However, do you videotape yourself beating your wife? Or robbing a store? If you are smart, no. Why? Why do you want such incriminating evidence laying around, for starters. And further more, are these events something you would want to remember or be remembered for? I should hope not.

Thats why I have a problem with those soldiers in Iraq who are engaging in torture and humilation of people, AND filming and photographing it. I mean, torture in interrogations is a fact of life in war, like it or not. But if you were charged with having to squeeze information out of a prisoner/suspect, and had to go the rough road, are your interrogation sessions something you would want to remember in such vivid detail? Would this be something you filmed, photpgraphed, then brought back home and displayed to your family in slide shows? Sent into America's Funniest Home Videos to see if you win a prize?

If you are a normal human being, the answer would be no. If I had to beat the crap out of some guy and clip battery clamps on his nipples to get him to tell me where his terrorist buddies were hiding, it sure as hell would not be something Id be wanting to take souvenier photos or home movies of. Hell no. If I had to, id want it done and over quickly, and I sure as hell would not want physical reminders of the level I had to sink to. I would be haunted enough in my nightmares without having to flip through a photo album detailing my deeds.

So I will say this. The fact that the soliders, from Abu Ghraib to the various other photographed and video taped abuses, actually recorded these events like they were recording a nite out with friends really bothers me. It is that kind of mentality, that would think sexual torture, killing, abuse, humilation are worthy mementos that is usually associated with sadists and serial killers.

It is not the matter of what they did, which goes on in war all the time. Its the matter of them recording it like a war trophy so that they would have mementos of doing things that are not the stuff memories are made of. And its the fact that they actually WANT to remember these incidents.

Troubling, people. it reminds me of serial killers who take photos or tokens from their victims.

originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
You photograph your wedding, because it is a once in a lifetime event that you want to remember.

Unless your Elizabeth Taylor, sorry couldnt help myself dude.

Back on topic there have been alot of cases here over the past few years of guys taping themselves as they have been committing crimes, break ins, joy riding stolen cars, vandalism etc. Perhaps its just the fact that the technology now makes it so much easier, hell you can take 20 mins of video footage on your mobile phone now.
I reckon if this tech was available 100 yrs ago it would have been used for similar things, i dont think we've improved at all. Pity the romans didn't have a camera they'd probably have filmed the crucifixtion, would have solved a few arguments!!

I dont think its the availability of technology. Hell, cameras were pretty cheap and available in the first gulf war, and lots of video tapes were available. im quite certain some rough stuff went on then, but you did not see people videotaping it like it was a party, or something ytoud want to remember.

I can understand why soldiers might film a battle. Or take pictures of their buddies with captured prisoners. But taking pictures of people being tortured, or taking pictures of assaulting or abusing civilians..........thats not exactly what i would consider "memories".

War journals have been kept around for a while, yet I dont see to many war journals where the author is waxing sentimental about engaging in some horrible activity and all its details like reporting at a concert.

Sure i see where your coming from, but if some of those nazi's in the second world war had hand held vidcams dont you think they'd have used them.
Just the sick mentality of some people im afraid.

The first gulf war didnt have prisoners in long term captivity from memory though i'll stand corrected.
Perhaps the armed forces draws these sorts of people to it with the promise of committing violence without the legal consequences they would face in civilian life. I'm not lumping all in the services in this boat as most of my family have served and are just as horrified at these atrocities as i am.

I dont know, just thinking out loud really, interesting. I still think the available tech has some bearing on the prevalence of this sort of thing though.

Originally posted by mojo4sale
Sure i see where your coming from, but if some of those nazi's in the second world war had hand held vidcams dont you think they'd have used them.
Just the sick mentality of some people im afraid.

You said it right there. THE NAZIS.

Now, I could see the Nazis engaging in this sort of photographic memory making. After all, what wopuld you expect from people who think nothing of casually exterminating millions of "subhumans" like they were roaches? Thats the type of mentality that was normal for them.

But is this the type of mentality that we foster in the civilized world? the nazis are not exactly people I'd want any comparison to.

Thats it then in a nut shell "civilized world".
I guess that during that period (the second world war) the general concensus would have been that they were living in a civilised world.
It's our perception that we are living in a civilised world even though we are proving the opposite day after day.
And in a hundred years (if we havent blown ourselves to hell) our era will be looked upon as having been less than civilised.

I brought this up a couple of years ago with a guy at work who was showing everyone the film of the 3 Iraqis in the field at night being blown apart by an Apache cannon.

I asked him why he had a snuff movie on a company provided mobile phone, which is after all what it was. Needless to say he argued that it wasn't a snuff movie at all but war footage. I have no desire to view such material. Death is a nasty business and not to be glorified but it seems that there are a lot of people who seem to revel in it. More so if it's foreigners getting killed. I have even seen young kids with this sort of footage on their mobile phones. It's becoming a sicker world by the day.

Perhaps it's become a new sort of socially acceptable porn?

Originally posted by Britguy
I brought this up a couple of years ago with a guy at work who was showing everyone the film of the 3 Iraqis in the field at night being blown apart by an Apache cannon.

I asked him why he had a snuff movie on a company provided mobile phone, which is after all what it was. Needless to say he argued that it wasn't a snuff movie at all but war footage. I have no desire to view such material. Death is a nasty business and not to be glorified but it seems that there are a lot of people who seem to revel in it. More so if it's foreigners getting killed. I have even seen young kids with this sort of footage on their mobile phones. It's becoming a sicker world by the day.

Perhaps it's become a new sort of socially acceptable porn?

Thats another angle. People becoming jaded and looking for something extreme, to push the limits of what is acceptable. In otherwords, a slow loss of the feelings of guilt, horror, shame, sadness, disgust, ect that normally would be applied to such situations. Now brutality and abuse become entertaining.

I have also seen recon videos from a guy who trades them and other photos with other people in the service.

They way some people where talking it was no different then a video game..

In one video they shot two trucks with a high powered machine gun from a helicopter.
One man survived and crawled under the truck, the pilot simply asks for his orders, the man at the control center says to take him out, and in a blaze of gun fire the truck is blown apart, along with the man beneath it.

Of course that is war.. you cannot avoid it when you go to war, you have to kill..

It would be another thing if a soldier filmed personally him beating or murdering women and children or unarmed old men.. but I have not seen anyone actually filming them? Do you have a link to the evidence?

and then there is southpark...

teaching us to laugh at the worse parts of what make us human...

I agree that exposure to such harsh images does harden us to what "normal" is...

i remember watching an egyptian version of a hidden video show many years ago, and the set up was...
an average guy who runs up to a group of people and trys to give them a suitcase (in a hurry)

In the US at the time, it not only wasn't funny, but seemed a good opportunity for a free suitcase, which most new yorkers would have accepted within seconds... (pre-911).

Now... its frikin hilarious... and stupid, as the guy trying to give the suitcase away, would probably be shot...(in NYC)

and that is a sad reality...

anyone think that first person shooter games (quake/doom/unreal) are making things even worse?

I just think that the way the armies train their personel desensitises men from the brutality of war. In WW 2, many men in the war hesitated to shoot first. So to make them more effective in combat, they train them psychologically not to care. I guess they film their deeds, to show to their mates, who are also in their unit.

Just like to mention one thing, the modern battlefield has cameras up the wazoo so capturing systems killing the enemy is now a fact, there's nothing you can really do about it. However this does not relate to people who videotape themselves "beating" prisoners, I have not seen such video BTW but if they're out there I'd like to see it. However I have seen pictures of people engaging in questionable and inappropriate behavior though.

As for the attitude or views of the soldiers, well this is a war, everyone understand what that mean. Killing is just part of the J.O.B. it has to be done at one point or another. As cold as that might sound that’s how it is, if you don't approached it that way you'll drive yourself crazy and quite frankly you are in the wrong line of business. War by its very nature has to be run a certain way and fought by certain individuals, that is all.

Here is a video of three insurgents being killed by an Apache 30mm chain gun.

WARNING: STRONG GRAPHIC CONTENT:

Link

[edit on 29-8-2006 by WestPoint23]

And there you have it... another snuff movie

Ok, in war some nasty stuff happens. What is rather sickening though is that these images / videos are released to the net like it's all good fun, complete with rock soundtracks etc.
Anyone who get's their kicks from this sort of stuff must be some kind of sick twisted individual.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
Just like to mention one thing, the modern battlefield has cameras up the wazoo so capturing systems killing the enemy is now a fact, there's nothing you can really do about it. However this does not relate to people who videotape themselves "beating" prisoners, I have not seen such video BTW but if they're out there I'd like to see it. However I have seen pictures of people engaging in questionable and inappropriate behavior though.

As for the attitude or views of the soldiers, well this is a war, everyone understand what that mean. Killing is just part of the J.O.B. it has to be done at one point or another. As cold as that might sound that’s how it is, if you don't approached it that way you'll drive yourself crazy and quite frankly you are in the wrong line of business. War by its very nature has to be run a certain way and fought by certain individuals, that is all.

Here is a video of three insurgents being killed by an Apache 30mm chain gun.

WARNING: STRONG GRAPHIC CONTENT:

Link

[edit on 29-8-2006 by WestPoint23]

Abu Ghraib. You consider THAT normal?

Im not talking about a casual attitude towards violence. Thats war.

Im talking about a casual, war trophy attitude towards torture and brutality.

It is one thing to go out and beat up or shoot a guy or torture him for information.

Its another thing to film, photograph, and record the activity like some sweet memento to show your friends back home.

That is what Im railing against. Not the fact that people are getting shot and killed or beat up. But the fact that our soldiers are recording it like it was a family vacation. Like it is some fun time to be fondly remembered like a trip to the grand canyon.

THATS disturbing. Its like britguy says. Its akin to snuff movies.

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
Abu Ghraib. You consider THAT normal?

No, not at all, that would fall under this comment. "However I have seen pictures of people engaging in questionable and inappropriate behavior though." I do not condone nor consider such "posing" or "documenting" appropriate. And I don’t think I have to tell you this but nothing about war is "normal".

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
It is one thing to go out and beat up or shoot a guy or torture him for information.

Its another thing to film, photograph, and record the activity like some sweet memento to show your friends back home.

Well, I'm going to have to disagree with this a bit, no I don't believe "torture" should be recorded as a "trophy video" but recording your actions and activity on the battlefield I see nothing wrong with. It's your experience and activity, if you want to record it, by all means, and if you happen to capture someone getting killed it should be your choice whether or not you want that memory or recording. Some may see that as disturbing or abnormal but for some of the guys I've talked to it's just nothing new by now. Most are used to it so they aren't affected by having it on video. Some want to have video so they can show everyone what they've been through and how it is over there. Others want to highlight certain battles that they were victorious (survived) in. After risking your life and living through something like that I can see why some would want to highlight such an event. It's understandable (to me) to a certain point.

Well, to each their own, west point.

I know when i was in the army, when possible, we took pictures or films of each other doing mundane or funny things. Like one of the launcher operators got a good pic of the control panel sparking and frying when I dropped a wrench on the hot leads.

Getting photos or videos of night fire or a missile going off is one thing, or capturing helicopters in action.

However, if I was busy blowing people away, or I had to torture or beat information out of someone, the last thing I would want is a pictorial memento of the event. When documenting my war experiences, mutilated bodies or guys with nipple clamps are not things I would want to remeber so clearly. Those images, Im quite sure, would be burned in my mind and visit me in a dozen nightmares.

I would have ebnough memories of death, destruction, and brutality, and I sure as hell wouldn't want to record them, as these are parts of the war Id like to forget.

Im not talkin about photographing or getting pictures of say, you and your friends in action, and stuff like that.

Im talking about videos and photos of soldiers engaging in really nasty biz. Like remember those british soldiers that were taking pictures of the Iraqi detainees they were beating up and humiliating? Or the video of some guys where some soldiers were beating the crap out of some Iraqi and cheering and encouragin it?

Again, stuff like that is a fact of life in war. However, the mentality that would want to record stuff like that disturbs me.

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
Well, to each their own, west point.

I suppose that's how it is in this case.

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
Again, stuff like that is a fact of life in war. However, the mentality that would want to record stuff like that disturbs me.

Well, I can say now that I wouldn't do it, but if I was under those conditions would I still think that? I don't know.

Maybe the rumors are true, 3/4ths of the armed forces are rabid Dethklok fans?





seriously, you gotta be a sick @#%^#@!$#@$#^%$#@$#&&^%&%^#@$@!@#**%$@$#@@%#@$%$#%$# to want to video tape yourself killing someone...