Islamic Conversion Forced on Fox Journalist's for Freedom!

So, they converted to Islam to save their skins. Fair enough, if they're really that bothered about it can't they just get converted back to what they were before? At least they were able to look at the situation rationally and do the sensible thing!

Babies get baptised simply because their parents desire it, an infant doesn't get the opportunity to make a decision, in fact is not capable of it.

It'd be a pretty pitiful god that holds an expedient conversion against them!

DJMessiah - Thank you for trying to talk sense to bigots. As you may have seen it does little good though. People who are determined to see Islam as the enemy will simply continue t do so, and will continue to blame all Muslims for the actions of a few extremists.

krossfyter - Thank you for at least questioning and trying to understand. However, trying to ask DJMessiah why OBL did anything is like trying to ask me why Bush does something. Their minds are their own as are their actions. It is not the institution that is the problem, it is the person.

DYepes - Give it up. Heckman isn't going to acknowledge any content except that which supports his predetermined view that Islam is some beast religion. He's made up his mind and it isn't going to change. You could present an entire book of facts and history and statistics proving your point and he'd still isolate a few passages and talk about what an evil religion it is.

Heckman (and all convinced Islam is evil) - I'm very disappoined in your words. It only goes to show that even on an intelligent thought-provoking site, that people can still be so stubbornly bigoted against another people. DJMessiah and I and many others have repeatedly tried to explain, to reason, and to give examples, and you still insist on your own flawed interpretations. And so I feel you owe subz an answer. If you are so adamant about Islam being evil, and are so absolutely certain, then I hope you have a solution in mind, because you've just declared 1 billion people to be an enemy. Congratulations. While your at it, why don't you just make it an even 1/3 of the Earth and make an enemy of the Chinese as well?

subz - Good question. I just want it stated I don't consider Islam my enemy any more than Christianity or Judaism. But since apparently people like Heckman and company do, I think they owe you a proper answer. What are they going to do now that 1 billion people are their chosen enemy? Golly. I can't wait to see the answers.

Well I could see that these people have made up their minds and that they truly believe Islam is completely evil. So that would logically extend to all those who adhere to Islam.

So, if they are correct, now what? It is a really simple question and one that should be easy to answer if they are as thoroughly convinced Islam is evil as they appear to be.

But I'll guarantee they will not answer because to do so will realize how hideous the thought process they have initiated actually is. They dont know it yet, but they are starting down the exact same path that Nazi Germany began in 1933. They are allowing themselves to even consider an entire religion to be evil. Either they will wake up and change their criteria to accurately reflect the problem of Islamic extremists or they should quit being cowards and acknowledge their Hitlerian doctrines.

Originally posted by djohnsto77

Originally posted by derfred33
Maybe next time FOX News send Islamic Journalists...

I doubt it'd matter. I bet most Islamicists would still call them infidels for working for a U.S. news organization.

Lol, that´s probably true. But they could always say they were forced to do that

Originally posted by subz
Wait, but I thought that it's Islam that is the problem. Since there are 1 billion adherents to Islam in the World that means 1 billion enemies, right?

No, there are many Muslims who adhere to the old ways and still use the old ways.

If Jesus Christ would have gone around the world with a sword preaching to spread Christianity by force if the unbelievers don't accept it, and making as an example the beheading of some of the unbelievers, wouldn't there be more Christian extremists in the world, beheading those who are not extremists including Christians?

Not all Muslim people are extremists, but that is because they accept that we are in a new era

Originally posted by subz
So shouldnt we just round up all muslims and either force them to recount their faith or intern them like we did the Japanese. We're at war here, we should lock them all up right? If Islam is making them violent and blood thirsty murderers lets lock them all up, right?

I can't talk for anyone else but where did i say that?.... Do you think that trying to lie and hide the facts is going to make Islamic extremism go away?....

To seek the destruction of all Muslim people is not the anwser, but neither is it hiding the facts.

Originally posted by subz
Either they will wake up and change their criteria to accurately reflect the problem of Islamic extremists or they should quit being cowards and acknowledge their Hitlerian doctrines.

Well, or the third option, which is simply to ignore either possibility and just keep muttering about how Islam is the enemy without actually doing anything or considering the possibility that it's not. That seems to be par for the course lately.

In all honesty though, what's happening in my country (USA) is seriously starting to scare me. I'm now hearing similar stuff, daily, from a lot of people, even on the radio, about how Islam is our enemy, with the most bigoted ignorant claims, and people are just eating it right up. I swear to god it seems like someone is purposely trying to stir up America into a fury against Muslims.

Honestly? Considering how ignorant and complacent most of my countrymen are at the moment, I wouldn't be surprised if we ended up with a holocaust here in America.

What happens when a nation of 250 million declares war on a worldwide population of 1 billion?

Originally posted by subz
...............
Either they will wake up and change their criteria to accurately reflect the problem of Islamic extremists or they should quit being cowards and acknowledge their Hitlerian doctrines.

And the problem is Islamic extremists, as true moderates do not follow the extremist path and many Muslim moderates have died by the hands of extremists.

The fact that there are good Muslim people does this make the actions of the main prophet of Islam a saint.

As long as there are violent passages in the Koran, and stories of the violence that Mohammed and his men inflicted upon infidels in other sacred Islamic, books as well as the Quran, there will be extremists.

[edit on 30-8-2006 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by Muaddib
Not all Muslim people are extremists, but that is because they accept that we are in a new era

Ok now this is progress.

So it's actually the muslim extremists that are the problem, not Islam? That's what I have believed all along but I have read many a disturbing post in this very thread which paints all muslims with the same brush. Since you are capable of clearly distinguishing between the problematic extremists and those who are completely benign, you could do well to help persuade those in this thread who think differently to us.

Originally posted by Muaddib
I can't talk for anyone else but where did i say that?.... Do you think that trying to lie and hide the facts is going to make Islamic extremism go away?....

I never said you said that, I actually never said any one here said that. I was asking what is the logical next step for those who believe Islam is evil and muslims are our enemy.

Originally posted by Muaddib
To seek the destruction of all Muslim people is not the anwser, but neither is it hiding the facts.

Quite so Muaddib, so long as people recognize that it's not Islam that is the problem and that it's the extremists we might have a chance of actually remedying this problem. When we have people amongst us Westerners who sneer and making bigotted remarks against the entire muslim World we ironically drive more and more moderate muslims into the extremist fold. It's inevitable that when we demonize people we infact illicit a negative response for our efforts. This, IMHO, is in neither us Westerners, or Islam's interest. Such widesweeping generalizations and bigotry should stop and any one with any means should actively prevent it where we see it. It's endangering us every time these bigots (on both sides) speak.

Originally posted by thelibra
.................
Honestly? Considering how ignorant and complacent most of my countrymen are at the moment, I wouldn't be surprised if we ended up with a holocaust here in America.

and that would be the worse thing to happen, but since when is denying the facts going to make a problem such as Islamic extremism go away?...

Could you tell me why is it that in most conflicts in the world there are Islamic extremists behind these conflicts?

Could you tell me why is the fact that Islamic extremists have comitted, and are still comitting genocide in places around the world? In Sudan alone since 1983 there have been at least 2.5 million people who have been murdered by Islamic extremists.... is that a lie?...

Originally posted by thelibra
What happens when a nation of 250 million declares war on a worldwide population of 1 billion?

What happens when Islamic extremists keep teaching the violent passages and the violent actions of Mohammed showing that it is alright to behead infidels if they don't accept Islam?...

What happens if the world continues to ignore these facts in hope that "it will go away"? Probably another, or several genocides like the ones in Sudan.

[edit on 30-8-2006 by Muaddib]

The next thing you know they'll be putting guns to the heads of men, and forcing them to watch porn and listen to music.. and let their WIFE out of the house on her own.. OH the humanity of it all.. What a farce... More government horse *&#$... If the CIA.. er.. .I mean.. Extremists had killed these men, there would be noone left to REPORT from over there.. with the amount of journalists killed already.. I think that previously killed journalists had stumbled onto something, photographed/recorded something and were killed to assure their silence, These men probably didnt find anything, their media was reviewed and they were "converted"... Wow at this rate.. We'll all be worshipping Islam by... 3015.. Thats just around the corner.. we should act fast and STOP these extremists.... oh...wait..

[edit on 30-8-2006 by Ox]

intelligent thought-provoking site, that people can still be so stubbornly bigoted against another people. DJMessiah and I and many others have repeatedly tried to explain, to reason, and to give examples, and you still insist on your own flawed interpretations. And so I feel you owe subz an answer. If you are so adamant about Islam being evil, and are so absolutely certain, then I hope you have a solution in mind,

I have shown why and how the quran is used to promote and justify violence.
I did not create violent Muslims

I did not write the calls to war in the quran. You speak as if this is somehow my creation.
The Quran that I was quoting from was not translated by me as you say.. It is The Meanings Of The Holy Qur'an translated by Abdullah Yusufali

How many times have I asked for people to read the Quran them self and gather their own opinion?

I posted links to 3 different translations.

Again I SAY READ IT FOR YOURSELF..

www.wam.umd.edu...
www.quran-islam.org...
www.submission.org...

because you've just declared 1 billion people to be an enemy. Congratulations. While your at it, why don't you just make it an even 1/3 of the Earth and make an enemy of the Chinese as well?

No ... I have never declared anyone "the enemy" again you are trying to put words from your own "rule the world" mentality in my mouth...

Arguing that Islam is somehow "inherently" violent is in essence a call for genocide, or at the very least forced conversion, all protestations of innocence aside.

One can look through Judaic and Christian religious history and texts and cherry pick enough examples to "prove" (especially to those already inclined to believe it) that these faiths also call for violence against "unbelievers" - because they do... this is one thing all the monotheistic faiths have in common.

As far as "enemies" go - personally I see religious extremists of all sorts in general as "enemies" - as well as other types of fanatic. I don't really give a damn if a political terrorist is Islamic or Maoist... the dead are still just as dead whatever banner they were killed in the name of.





[edit on 8/30/06 by xmotex]

Originally posted by xmotex
Arguing that Islam is somehow "inherently" violent is in essence a call for genocide, or at the very least forced conversion, all protestations of innocence aside.

One can look through Judaic and Christian religious history and texts and cherry pick enough examples to "prove" (especially to those already inclined to believe it) that these faiths also call for violence against "unbelievers" - because they do... this is one thing all the monotheistic faiths have in common.

As far as "enemies" go - personally I see religious extremists of all sorts in general as "enemies" - as well as other types of fanatic. I don't really give a damn if a political terrorist is Islamic or Maoist... the dead are still just as dead whatever banner they were killed in the name of.





[edit on 8/30/06 by xmotex]

true but how many times today do people in the judiac or christian faith mis interpret scripture and kill others because they dont convert to the religion... compared with how many times some muslim mis inteprets scriputre and kills others who do not convert to the religion?

im not saying all islam is evil. im being real here... i do feel that only a very small percentage (just like in any religion) are mucking it up in the faith.
however.... im unsure who is mis-intepreting scripture and im unsure whether the koran is a book of evil or a book of peace... thats what im unsure about.

but me being unsure about this... does not make me someone who thinks all islam is evil. please.

im still trying to find my own answers to this.

i know most folks in islam faith are rather peaceful people.



[edit on 30-8-2006 by krossfyter]

You're frankly not the kind of person I am worried about - you're coming to the debate with honest questions, rather than with your mind made up: "Islam is inherently evil".

It's true forced conversion is almost unknown in modern Christianity. Quite rare in modern Islam as well, BTW. On the other hand, the practice was widespread (and quite open) during the colonization of the Americas, and elsewhere during the era of European colonization.

My general point is that it's the fanaticism that's the problem, not the particular religion of the fanatic. Christian religious partisans are quick to point out Osama Bin Laden and his ilk, while ignoring Torquemada and his.

For historical and economic reasons, religious fanaticism seems to be at a peak in the Islamic world right now. A few centuries ago it was at it's peak in the Christian world. Neither religion is immune to the problem.


[edit on 8/30/06 by xmotex]

Originally posted by xmotex
You're frankly not the kind of person I am worried about - you're coming to the debate with honest questions, rather than with your mind made up: "Islam is inherently evil".

It's true forced conversion is almost unknown in modern Christianity. Quite rare in modern Islam as well, BTW. On the other hand, the practice was widespread (and quite open) during the colonization of the Americas, and elsewhere during the era of European colonization.

My general point is that it's the fanaticism that's the problem, not the particular religion of the fanatic. Christian religious partisans are quick to point out Osama Bin Laden and his ilk, while ignoring Torquemada and his.

For historical and economic reasons, religious fanaticism seems to be at a peak in the Islamic world right now. A few centuries ago it was at it's peak in the Christian world. Neither religion is immune to the problem.


[edit on 8/30/06 by xmotex]

okay i can see you on that. well if thats the case then one could say that islam is currently in its "dark ages"? it hasnt caught up with the times yet?
its trying to deal with modernity so its only attempt to do see is what we are seeing with the radicals?

Yeah that's pretty much it.

Parts of Islam, especially in the Arab world, are in their equivalent of the Dark Ages. Confronted with the modern world and the uncomfortable changes it's bringing to their societies, the extremists seek to retreat into medievalism.

It's been made a lot worse by the helplessness and humiliation felt by many in the Arab world after the repeated defeats and disapointments of the 20th century.

First, I'll address Desert Mouse

Originally posted by Muaddib
and that would be the worse thing to happen, but since when is denying the facts going to make a problem such as Islamic extremism go away?...

It doesn't. If anything, it encourages it. No disagreement here.

Originally posted by Muaddib
Could you tell me why is it that in most conflicts in the world there are Islamic extremists behind these conflicts?

Actually, that may be a bit of an over-generalization. While I absolutely do not deny the existance of muslim extremists and militant islam, I think it'd be unfair to blame it on most of the world's ills. Most of the world's terrorist acts, in the present day, yes, but most of the conflicts, no. China, Africa, and South America I would say have more combined conflicts and people massacred than in the Middle East, and in the case of African genocide (like the Democratic Republic of Congo), where the average age is only 14, I think it may, in fact, outstrip even extremists in the horrors and terrorism department.

Originally posted by Muaddib
Could you tell me why is the fact that Islamic extremists have comitted, and are still comitting genocide in places around the world?

Ummm... because they're a bunch of assholes? I dunno man. They're religious militant fanatics, for all I know they did it because they thought some rock told them to.

Originally posted by Muaddib
In Sudan alone since 1983 there have been at least 2.5 million people who have been murdered by Islamic extremists.... is that a lie?...

Ummm... I don't know? Probably not. Let's compare it to some other places...

Democratic Republic of Congo... 4 Million killed in 6 Years.
Compared to 2.5 million over 23 years? Yep, I'd say your numbers were quite believable in comparison.

Originally posted by Muaddib
What happens when Islamic extremists keep teaching the violent passages and the violent actions of Mohammed showing that it is alright to behead infidels if they don't accept Islam?...

People get very angry? Dude. I'm not disagreeing with anything you're saying here. My beef is with people who are painting all of Islam as a terrorist organization, not with people pissed off at the extremists. By all means, everyone should be very angry and disappointed with the extremists. Bad extremists! No treat! But don't throw all of Islam into the toilet with them.


Now on to answer Heckman's questions...

Originally posted by Heckman
I have shown why and how the quran is used to promote and justify violence.

I never once implied the Qu'ran couldn't be used to promote and justify violence. That's a given, as it is with the Bible, the Torah, the Vedas, the Baghavad Gita, or any other book you name. Holy texts have been, are being, and will be misinterpreted by people until the end of time. And because so few people actually read the whole thing, and learn the real message of the religions, they go along with whatever misinterpretation is parroted to them by others. And even those who know it's a misinterpretation might encourage or go along with the misinterpretation because it suits another personal end. That's a fact of life, Heckman, and one that will not change as long as ignorant and bigoted people of any race, religion, or color exist.

Originally posted by Heckman
I did not create violent Muslims

Actually, you do. You did not roll them up in clay and breathe life into their noses, nor did you put a gun to their head and force them to become extremists. You may have never talked face to face to a Muslim in your entire life, even.

But your bigoted words demonizing all of Islam reach others who will do even less research than yourself. These people in turn amplify those words of hatred, and commit evil acts against otherwise innocent people. They might not even be Muslim, they might just look like one to an ignorant redneck that doesn't know the difference between an Indian and a Iranian.

Those actions will inflame the anger and resentment towards the non-Muslim world, and the next time a moderate voice hears one of their friends or relatives say the are considering extremist measure, they might just turn a blind eye, because of the treatment they themselves received from the likes of you and people who listen to you.

Hatred begets more hatred.

Now, I wouldn't be so ignorant as to imply that all the violent extremists out there are the result of bigotry, I couldn't even begin to apply any kind of statistic to it. However, bigotry is a source of extremism, and is absolutely a cause for terrorist actions being allowed to go unchecked. That is for certain.

So, in essence, yes, you do create violent extremists, with your hate-filled words.

Originally posted by Heckman
How many times have I asked for people to read the Quran them self and gather their own opinion?

I posted links to 3 different translations.

Again I SAY READ IT FOR YOURSELF..

I have. The whole thing. A few times. I've spoken about Islam at great lengths with Muslim friends and even members of the FoA (Fruits of Islam). I've asked some of these same questions, and actually listened when I was answered, and discussed them with Ministers, Rabbis and Priests to great lengths. I have gained a far better understanding of Islam than any extremist, and I'm not even a Muslim.

Have you done any of these things?

Or did you just read a few select passages you ran a quick keyphrase searches on and use them to justify your existing hatred?

Originally posted by Heckman
No ... I have never declared anyone "the enemy" again you are trying to put words from your own "rule the world" mentality in my mouth...

Don't bring my quest for World Domination into this. It doesn't apply. And yes, if you persist in your attempts to demonize Islam because of how you perceive the Qu'ran to be, then yes, you are making an enemy of 1 billion people. So I suggest maybe you re-evaluate your approach to this topic.

To say that the Islamic world is at its peak of extremism now is inaccurate. It would be better to say that it has not emerged from extremism since its inception.

622-632 the first empire of Muhammad you can read about the battles in the quran.

632-661 empire of four caliphs (this is where Islam split between Shi'ites and Sunni

661-750 The Umayyad Caliphate empire based from Damascus and conquered North Africa turkey India , part of china , Afghanistan to the Indus river in modern-day Pakistan. Along with parts of Europe Spain, Portugal and southern France where they were stopped by Charles Martel (this is before the crusades)

750-1290 The ABBASID DYNASTY empire based from Bagdad defeated the Umayyad caliphate empire which retreated to Spain and established the Umayyad EMIRATE OF CORDOBA The Abbasid empire weakened by the crusades was destroyed by the Mongols in 1290 when they took Bagdad.

750-1492 Umayyad EMIRATE OF CORDOBA based in Spain. They remained in Portugal until 1492.

1526-1857 The Mogul Empire conqured India abd was Defeated by the British Empire in 1857.

1290-1924 The Ottoman Caliphate Empire conquered Constantinople and advanced into the Balkans and Hungary Iraq Arabia and Egypt. The title of caliph was abolished in 1924. Bin Ladden and his followers point to this as a reason for war.


Here is a list of EUROPEAN countries that most people do not realize were conqured and occupied by Muslims

Spain 800 years, Portugal 600 years, Greece 500 years, Sicily 300 years, Serbia 400 years, Bulgaria 500 years, Romania 400 years, Hungary 150 years... Italy, Austria, Bosnia, Croatia, Wallache, Albania, Moldavia, Armenia, Georgia, Poland, the Ukraine, and eastern and southern Russia

The past is not the present and war will never fix the problem of violent Islam.
To anyone that thinks that I am somehow calling for genocide or war are completely incorrect. I have never once and will not ever call Muslims "the enemy" solely on their religion

I have shown how the Quran is used to promote and justify violence.
Again I did not create violent Muslims and I did not write the calls to war in the Quran. Muslims that are violent DO justify themselves in the Quran.

I believe the solution to counter violent Muslims must be based on:

Freedom of religion

Equal rights of all races and religions

Along with the support of governments that promote these things.

Defiantly NOT a war against "radical Islam" because this only causes so called peaceful Muslims to take up arms for their Muslim brothers whom are being attacked (persecuted)

The solution also lies in peaceful Muslims that truly believe in peace.. Since the Quran can and IS so easily used to justify violence and slaughter , peaceful Muslims if they truly believe in peace ,and if they truly believe that the Quran teaches peace , they should VIGILANTLY teach their peaceful views to the rest of the Muslim world. They should speak out FORCEFULLY against the violence and killings of innocents. They should speak out FORCEFULLY against forced conversions to Islam and they should teach equal rights, and freedom of religion.


[edit on 30-8-2006 by Heckman]

And because so few people actually read the whole thing, and learn the real message of the religions, they go along with whatever misinterpretation is parroted to them by others

I'm not the one posting misinterpretations parroted to them by others

Again I asked how many times have I asked people to read it for themselves and develop their own opinion ???

I have posted links for those willing to read the Quran...

But your bigoted words demonizing all of Islam reach others who will do even less research than yourself. These people in turn amplify those words of hatred, and commit evil acts against otherwise innocent people. They might not even be Muslim, they might just look like one to an ignorant redneck that doesn't know the difference between an Indian and a Iranian.

You really have a very active imagination.


[edit on 30-8-2006 by Heckman]

Originally posted by Heckman
To say that the Islamic world is at its peak of extremism now is inaccurate. It would be better to say that it has not emerged from extremism since its inception.

Here is a list of EUROPEAN countries that most people do not realize were conqured and occupied by Muslims ...

Ok, well, let's take a look at the largest empires in our history since you are so transfixed about empires being a representation of brutality...

Largest empires by landmass
Contiguous and overseas empires

# British Empire - 36.6 million km² (under King George V in 1921) [3]
# Mongol Empire - 33.2 million km² (achieved in period 1238-96 under Khublai Khan) [3]
# Russian Empire - 22.8 million km² (considering multiple Russian rulers as one entity) [4]
# Spanish Empire - 19 million km² [5]
# Qing Empire - 14.7 million km² [6] or 12 million km² [7] [8]
# Arab Empire - 13.2 million km² [9] or 11.1 million km² [10] (under the Umayyad Caliphate)
# French Empire - 12 million km² [11]
# Portuguese Empire - 10 million km² [12]
# Brazilian Empire - 8 million km² [13]
# Persian Empire - 7.5 million km² [14]

en.wikipedia.org...

It seems that 6 of the 10 largest empires in history by landmass were Christian, 1 is Muslim.

You also seem to want to ignore the fact that most of the countries in the Middle East did not achieve independence until the middle of the 20th century since they were essentially colonies of Christian countries until that time. Turkey would have been one too if they hadn't fought off the Greeks, British, French, Australians, etc.

As well, DJ Messiah has shown repeatedly your flawed interpretation of the Qur'an and your taking it out of context. I invite everyone to see for themselves the Qur'an, 3 different translations of it too, at this website...
www.usc.edu...

Just because you keep repeating yourself doesn't make it truth.