Can someone explain Radical Islam?

Originally posted by krossfyter
some say that islam is having problems keeping up with modernity.

"There are others, however, who view modernity with suspicion, seeing it not only as a Western concept which threatens Muslim values, but also as a sinister attempt by Western powers to dilute and weaken Islam."
news.bbc.co.uk...

could it be that what you are seeing by radical islam is a response because of modernity?

Except for the Arabian Gulf part whereby the wealth of the world currently resides. Abu Dhabi is the world's richest city; Doha is the world's most boring city; Dubai is the new center of the world, and Riyadh is expected to join up with Sydney, Toronto and Zurich in 2020 as the capital of Saudi Arabia transfroms itself into a Beta world city.

Originally posted by risitar

Originally posted by krossfyter
some say that islam is having problems keeping up with modernity.

"There are others, however, who view modernity with suspicion, seeing it not only as a Western concept which threatens Muslim values, but also as a sinister attempt by Western powers to dilute and weaken Islam."
news.bbc.co.uk...

could it be that what you are seeing by radical islam is a response because of modernity?

Except for the Arabian Gulf part whereby the wealth of the world currently resides. Abu Dhabi is the world's richest city; Doha is the world's most boring city; Dubai is the new center of the world, and Riyadh is expected to join up with Sydney, Toronto and Zurich in 2020 as the capital of Saudi Arabia transfroms itself into a Beta world city.

are you giving me an example of islam assimialating well with modernity?

Originally posted by krossfyter

Originally posted by risitar

Originally posted by krossfyter
some say that islam is having problems keeping up with modernity.

"There are others, however, who view modernity with suspicion, seeing it not only as a Western concept which threatens Muslim values, but also as a sinister attempt by Western powers to dilute and weaken Islam."
news.bbc.co.uk...

could it be that what you are seeing by radical islam is a response because of modernity?

Except for the Arabian Gulf part whereby the wealth of the world currently resides. Abu Dhabi is the world's richest city; Doha is the world's most boring city; Dubai is the new center of the world, and Riyadh is expected to join up with Sydney, Toronto and Zurich in 2020 as the capital of Saudi Arabia transfroms itself into a Beta world city.

are you giving me an example of islam assimialating well with modernity?

Only facts were given and we are naive in think that either Europe or the relatively new United States of America is better than a religion that has some one billion members. The oil in the Middle East is a geographic miracle of sorts and even though the countries Iraq and Iran have so far chosen to utilize such resourses for their go-nowhere ambitions of war, the Arabian Gulf has done the exact opposite. I mean, the world's biggest mall, world's tallest structure, and most luxurious hotel has to stand for something right? It shouldn't come as a shock of just how much money such people currently have to which Russia isn't the only country that uses the now pricey commodity with the full bravado of their core strategies.

Originally posted by risitar

Originally posted by krossfyter

Originally posted by risitar

Originally posted by krossfyter
some say that islam is having problems keeping up with modernity.

"There are others, however, who view modernity with suspicion, seeing it not only as a Western concept which threatens Muslim values, but also as a sinister attempt by Western powers to dilute and weaken Islam."
news.bbc.co.uk...

could it be that what you are seeing by radical islam is a response because of modernity?

Except for the Arabian Gulf part whereby the wealth of the world currently resides. Abu Dhabi is the world's richest city; Doha is the world's most boring city; Dubai is the new center of the world, and Riyadh is expected to join up with Sydney, Toronto and Zurich in 2020 as the capital of Saudi Arabia transfroms itself into a Beta world city.

are you giving me an example of islam assimialating well with modernity?

Only facts were given and we are naive in think that either Europe or the relatively new United States of America is better than a religion that has some one billion members. The oil in the Middle East is a geographic miracle of sorts and even though the countries Iraq and Iran have so far chosen to utilize such resourses for their go-nowhere ambitions of war, the Arabian Gulf has done the exact opposite. I mean, the world's biggest mall, world's tallest structure, and most luxurious hotel has to stand for something right? It shouldn't come as a shock of just how much money such people currently have to which Russia isn't the only country that uses the now pricey commodity with the full bravado of their core strategies.

no ones saying one side is better then the other. i didnt say that. if you are implying i said that... you are mistaken.

im simply offering a theory of why radical islam is what it is.

if you can counter that point please do. bringing up points about where islam countries...areas are working in modernity doesnt negate the theory of why radical islam is what it is.

perhaps provide me with a view that states why radical islam is what it is that has nothing to do with it in regards to modernity... id be willing to hear it.

It's very clear Radical Islam is real and not a fabrication of the West, as many people would like to believe. Just look around the world and tell me what "religous group" is involved in all the terrorist acts? Yes, there are those who will say Israel and the Mossad are responsible also, but, let's get real now.

The fact of the matter is Radical Islamist are the ones to blame for the world's sorry condition now, We here in the west like to think America is to blame for the sad conditions in the Mid-East, It's just the Jihadist who can't get along with their neighbors, or anyone who does'nt bow down to Allah who are causing the malaise in the MiddleEast.

I suspect Russia, China, and Saudi Arabia are responsible for the terrorist acts around the world using "Jihadist" as their proxy warriors. Just as Israel uses America as it's "proxy warrior."

TERRORISM IN THE QURAN

Muhammad taught his followers to oppress or kill non-Muslims. Generally, Jews and Christians were allowed to live as such, provided they paid a special tax. This tax is Jizya, a tax revenue given to the Muslims to make up for revenues they lost from no longer dealing in pagan activities. If the Jews and Christians refused to pay this extortion tax they would have to convert to Islam or be killed. Non Jews or Christians (idolaters or pagans) had to convert to Islam or be killed. Generally they didn't have the option of paying the tax. Here is the verse that teaches Muslims to oppress Jews and Christians:

"Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, (which is Islam that abolishes all other religions ) of the people of the Book, (meaning the Jews and the Christians ) until they pay the Jizya (the tax imposed upon them) with willing submission and feel themselves subdued. (with humiliation and submission to the government of Islam.) 9:29 ." (Commentary in parenthesis is from the Tafsir Al-Jalalein. i.e., Al-Jalalein Interpretation of the Koran.)

The order to kill Christians and Jews is in that verse. It is clear that Muhammad ordered his followers to fight those Christians and Jews to convert them or pay the Jizya, and if they don't convert or pay, do you think that he told the followers to let them go in peace? It is very clear: convert... or pay with submission ... or die.


answering-islam.org.uk...

Originally posted by ivanterrible


Do you have the credentials for Silas333?

Originally posted by ivanterrible
"Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, (which is Islam that abolishes all other religions ) of the people of the Book, (meaning the Jews and the Christians ) until they pay the Jizya (the tax imposed upon them) with willing submission and feel themselves subdued. (with humiliation and submission to the government of Islam.) 9:29 ." (Commentary in parenthesis is from the Tafsir Al-Jalalein. i.e., Al-Jalalein Interpretation of the Koran.)

The order to kill Christians and Jews is in that verse.

Actually the Qur'an is very clear in saying not to start any fighting but to fight those who fight against you and to accept monetary compensation as an offer of peace and of a gift for protection.

002.190
YUSUFALI: Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.
PICKTHAL: Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors.
SHAKIR: And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits.

The Qur'an is also very clear about not forcing people to Islam:

002.256
YUSUFALI: Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.
PICKTHAL: There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower.
SHAKIR: There is no compulsion in religion; truly the right way has become clearly distinct from error; therefore, whoever disbelieves in the Shaitan and believes in Allah he indeed has laid hold on the firmest handle, which shall not break off, and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.

www.usc.edu...

Your above quote for Sura 9, verse 29 is only meant to apply to those who fight against Muslims. If you actually read Sura 9 you will see this:
www.usc.edu...

[edit on 20-8-2006 by Jamuhn]

Originally posted by Jamuhn



Thanks Jamuhn. I appreciate your help in clarifying these
Talk Radio arguments spewing forth from the ignorant.

Originally posted by johnlear
Originally posted by ivanterrible


Do you have the credentials for Silas333?

Silas 333, is that some code-name? what are you talking about?

Originally posted by Jamuhn


Actually the Qur'an is very clear in saying not to start any fighting but to fight those who fight against you and to accept monetary compensation as an offer of peace and of a gift for protection.




Your above quote for Sura 9, verse 29 is only meant to apply to those who fight against Muslims. If you actually read Sura 9 you will see this:
www.usc.edu...

[edit on 20-8-2006 by Jamuhn]

We can exchange views on the "Koran" all night, the point is Radical Islam! I notice people always want to not accept it as the Terrorism problem, Why? Answer:
Because, we"re used to not "offending" peoples religious beliefs, the exception being Christianity of course.

The facts speak for themselves, whether you want to believe the "illuminati" is behind Terrorism, the CIA/Mossad, NWO, whatever, it comes down to Radical Islam, why is it so hard to believe?

There is no such thing as radical Islam, there are only idiots who try to use Islam to justify there disgusting behaviour. You get these idiots in every religion but the media wants you to hate Islam and all Muslims to sell advertisements and help Bush. I don't bunch all Christians with the ones who go to our troops funerals and say God hates them and call them fags, so why should i group all Muslims with their idiots?

These idiots will look through their religious books and find a sentence or two that can easily be misinterpreted and they use it for their own means. You can find such sentences in all religious texts, the Bible has many but you have to read what come before and after such sentences to realize their true meaning.

Originally posted by ivanterrible

Originally posted by Jamuhn
Actually the Qur'an is very clear in saying not to start any fighting but to fight those who fight against you and to accept monetary compensation as an offer of peace and of a gift for protection.

We can exchange views on the "Koran" all night, the point is Radical Islam! I notice people always want to not accept it as the Terrorism problem, Why? Answer:
Because, we"re used to not "offending" peoples religious beliefs, the exception being Christianity of course.

So why do you bring up the Qur'an if you have no intention of discussing it? There is no definitive answer on what causes terrorism, since terrorism can occur from Columbia to Ireland to the Middle East. In the case of Islamic terrorists, it derives in part from a radical interpretation of religion (and even many western philosophers!), but not only that which I take is what you are trying to postulate. It derives also from socio-economic conditions as well as personal issues of the terrorists themselves.

But, if you want to try to use the Qur'an to show that Islam supports terror, then I will point out why the Qur'an doesn't support terrorism. In my humble opinion, it would be wise not to bring up Qur'anic verses if you will just change the subject when someone rebuffs you.

[edit on 20-8-2006 by Jamuhn]

Originally posted by ivanterrible

Silas 333, is that some code-name? what are you talking about?

Thats the anti-muslim web site you posted on your anti-muslim tirade. Silas333 is the guy writing all that. I wondered whether or not he had any credentials or was just another Israeli plant. Thanks anyway.

Originally posted by Jamuhn



So why do you bring up the Qur'an if you have no intention of discussing it? There is no definitive answer on what causes terrorism, since terrorism can occur from Columbia to Ireland to the Middle East. In the case of Islamic terrorists, it derives in part from a radical interpretation of religion (and even many western philosophers!), but not only that which I take is what you are trying to postulate. It derives also from socio-economic conditions as well as personal issues of the terrorists themselves.

But, if you want to try to use the Qur'an to show that Islam supports terror, then I will point out why the Qur'an doesn't support terrorism. In my humble opinion, it would be wise not to bring up Qur'anic verses if you will just change the subject when someone rebuffs you.

[edit on 20-8-2006 by Jamuhn]

I never changed the subject, You finally came around to even acknowledge that Terrorism exist in the Muslim world, To simply deny that the Koran has nothing to do with terrorism is not being honest, yes, you can provide the Koranic verses to make your point, and, yes, I can too make my points, but, it'll be tedious and just end back to square one, therefore I'll post the links I've reviewed and leave it to the viewer to decide, I provide, they decide, fair enough? And please don't take this as a attack on your personal beliefs in the Koran, It's my opinion, and mine alone, and I stand by them!

www.crossroad.to...

just a few sites to review.

www.exposingsatanism.org...


What is the significance of these photos you ask? well, you tell me, my understanding of the "cube" will only bring more anger toward me, so I'll leave it to you to uncover the meaning of the "cube."

Originally posted by ivanterrible

just a few sites to review.
www.exposingsatanism.org...

Ivan, Ed Decker who wrote the incorrect and unsubstantiated anti-muslim diatribe at the website you suggeted we review has been described by his associate Dick Baer, "Ed has a penchant to sensationalize, embellish on facts and center on bizarre issues to try to shock people (February 25th, 1993 Salt Lake Tribune). Critics also point out that he was excommunicated for adultery and wife abuse.

I would respectfully suggest that if you are going to continue to post anti-muslim propanganda that you choose a source that has some credibility which, I doubt, you will find.

I certainly welcome debate with you but not if your only objective is to present anti-muslim propanganda. As a matter of fact I have never seen you concede a single point.

Let me further respectfully suggest that if you cannot behave like an adult that you find another thread or forum to spread your hate and venom. Thank you for your understanding.

Originally posted by ivanterrible
just a few sites to review.

www.exposingsatanism.org...

What is the significance of these photos you ask? well, you tell me, my understanding of the "cube" will only bring more anger toward me, so I'll leave it to you to uncover the meaning of the "cube."

Your website about "exposingsatanism" is written by a Christian who is bent on sensationalization and demonizing any religion except for his own. He uses quotes from the Bible to talk about Islam, strange they don't say anything from the Qur'an...

If you really want the truth about Islam, I recommend picking up a Qur'an instead of visiting websites written by non-Muslims that only try to demonize the religion for their own personal gain. Go talk to a Muslim or visit an academic site.

The "cube" is actually called the Kaaba.

According to the Qur'an, the Kaaba was built by Ibrahim (Abraham) and his son Ismail (Ishmael [2]).

en.wikipedia.org...

[edit on 20-8-2006 by Jamuhn]

There seems to be some pretty extreme views here - on both sides.

I do not believe the Qur'an is behind what is being called "Radical Islam". I think the evidence supports the conclusion that a minority of people are misinterpreting small portions of the Qur'an to justify violence and what we call terrorism.

It is important, I believe, not to lump everybody together. That includes not lumping together all Muslims, or all Radio Talk Show Hosts or listeners, all Neo-Cons, all Old Conservatives, or all Liberals.

Much of the news media does tend to show mostly the violent elements of the Muslim world because violence sells and gets the most attention - unless, of course, somebody confesses to murdering Jon Benet Ramsey.

I do not believe one can, rationally and unemotionally, equate defending this country at the risk of life and limb with terrorist activities. I understand that may help to explain how some potential suicide bombers might feel, but blowing oneself up with a bunch of potential innocent people is obviously self defeating and not morally equivalent to the actions of the vast majority of our brave men and woman serving in the military. And, even if it were morally equivalent (which it is not), that would mean that the United States is not more reprehensible than others as some seem to imply by seeming to complain about the U.S.

To answer the initial question as to why radical islam: A minority of key people are misinterpreting small portions of the Qur'an to justify violence and what we call terrorism; people are brought up believing these misinterpretations; people feel hopelessness and perceive they are being invaded; people believe they will die as a martyr for the cause. Obviously, the full answer is much more complicated.

If people want to respond that Muslims are just evil or that the United States' policies are evil or that George Bush is as fault - these answers are too simplistic and rather lazy (imo).

Originally posted by Blarney63

To answer the initial question as to why radical islam: A minority of key people are misinterpreting small portions of the Qur'an to justify violence and what we call terrorism; people are brought up believing these misinterpretations; people feel hopelessness and perceive they are being invaded; people believe they will die as a martyr for the cause. Obviously, the full answer is much more complicated.

You bring some very good points to the table here Blarney63. The following statements by simtek23 and ivanterrible are fraught with hate and ignorance. They would do well to read and understand your comments as the answers to the problems in the middle east will not be easily solved nor will comments like those below help in any way. I would respectfully request that simtek 23 and ivanterrible post an apology for their insensitive, innaccurate and inflammatory posts.

Simtek 23
Radical Islam - The effect of tightening the rag to tight around ones head and cutting off the blood supply to the brain. Usually followed by the need to go out and kill yourself and attempting to take as many innocent people with you, and then attempting to justify it.

Have you ever noticed that you don't see the leaders of these Islamic morons (the radicals) willing to strap a bomb to their sorry butts and die for the cause.

ivanterrible
The fact of the matter is Radical Islamist are the ones to blame for the world's sorry condition now, We here in the west like to think America is to blame for the sad conditions in the Mid-East, It's just the Jihadist who can't get along with their neighbors, or anyone who does'nt bow down to Allah who are causing the malaise in the MiddleEast.

I will get the ball rolling here by apologizng for my insensitive and inaccurate comment equating serving in the milllitary with suicide bombers. Your turn simtek23 and ivanterrible. Thanks.

If you really want to know the history of radical Islam, watch the first of the three-part BBC documentary "The Power of Nightmares."

Google the title and you'll find it in many places all over the Internet. Where you won't see it is on US TV.

Radical Islam is a very recent phenomenon, and like certain other political movements, it is not wholly based in the religion, but instead uses the religion to build a 'base' of followers.

Just as you can find passages in the Christian Bible that seem to justify killing of non-believers, so will you find them in the Q'ran. That does not mean that all Christians or Muslims believe in killing non-believers.

You will also find murderous Christian sub-sects like the Army of God and Christian Identity among Christians -- plus people who are sufficiently sympathetic to terrorism that they would hide someone like Eric Rudolph for five years in their community.

We can have a dialog about radical Islam, but let's be accurate and fair.