The Sacred Knowledge question.

Originally posted by Nygdan
OR, set them to tasks to accomplish in order to get the knowledge, let that 'judge' them. Indeed, why should it just be given up to someone who happens to ask for it? And what if the knowledge isn't the answer to anyones questions, but is gained in the quest.

Who is it that said "somethings cannot be tought, they must be learned" ?

nygdan that was a total dodge... you know what i meant. who chooses what those tasks are? god didn't come down and give us tasks to do written out to test someones worthiness of knowledge. therefore that means its humans who make up those tests... what if the test for worthiness consisted of killing someone? was that god's idea of someone who needed knowledge, or somethig real messed up that humans decided? this is supposed to be a ritorical question, but i bet you can't admit that you really don't know gods will... or else you wouldnt keep arguing this point.

and by the way STAY ON TOPIC! READ THE SUBJECT OF THE THREAD AND POST ABOUT IT!

Originally posted by Nygdan
And what if the knowledge isn't the answer to anyones questions, but is gained in the quest.

In times like this, my friend, I wish you weren't a moderator so I could vote for you for Way Above. I think what you just wrote there sums up the Tao, Dharma, and Path of Return perfectly.

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by Nygdan
And what if the knowledge isn't the answer to anyones questions, but is gained in the quest.

In times like this, my friend, I wish you weren't a moderator so I could vote for you for Way Above. I think what you just wrote there sums up the Tao, Dharma, and Path of Return perfectly.

Does the knowledge change if the quest changes? I mean does one attain the same enlightenment via Tao, Dharma, and Path of Return?

Originally posted by hexrain1
nygdan that was a total dodge... you know what i meant.

?
I wasn't trying to dodge your question, how have I failed to answer it?

who chooses what those tasks are?

A method entrusted from time immemorial.

god didn't come down and give us tasks to do written out to test someones worthiness of knowledge.

Existence itself makes these tests. The specific forms are variable, and that variety results, in some forms, freemasonry, in other forms, sufism, in others, the mysteries, etc etc.

this is supposed to be a ritorical question, but i bet you can't admit that you really don't know gods will

I flat out admit, in case anyone suspected otherwise, that I know no will of any god.

... or else you wouldnt keep arguing this point.
I am not trying to argue a point. The question is, what determines if a person deserve 'the knowledge'. Rather than having 'some guy' recognized as an authority doling it out to us all as he pleases, groups like the freemasons have make use of this old technique of setting people to task. Literally, the Initiate must pass The Test to get Knowledge, that knowledge isn't simply printed out on index cards and handed out after a person completes their quest. The knights on their errands didn't get the grail as some physical reward merely because they rescued some floozy.

I think what you just wrote there sums up the Tao, Dharma, and Path of Return perfectly.

That makes it almost sound like I know something! When do I find out the "Will of God" eh!?!

rotarychris7
I mean does one attain the same enlightenment via Tao, Dharma, and Path of Return?

I would think that enlightement is enlightenment, no? I have no idea what 'True Enlightenment" actually is, but I'd imagine that there aren't 'many enlightenments' (this doesn't mean to say that Taoism or buddhism are wrong, and only Sufistic enlightenment is right, but rather, they're the same). No?

Osbert, I didn't know there was a Gnostic Catholic Church. I would have thought the two would be at odds with each other. Actually, I have noticed that there is just about any brand of Catholic you could imagine, even Jesuit Catholics.

I have noticed most times threads discussing the Masons get sidetracked pretty easily. It seems there is a regular group of defenders or distractors who step in before anything tooooo interesting comes up and comes out. Or is it just me?

Sincerely, I believe this happens because we Masons are finicky about the discussion proceeding normally whilst it's still packed to the brim with bull excrement.



We're trying hard to deny ignorance, but I guess we sometimes labour the point...

Originally posted by interestedalways

I have noticed most times threads discussing the Masons get sidetracked pretty easily. It seems there is a regular group of defenders or distractors who step in before anything tooooo interesting comes up and comes out. Or is it just me?

Not just you and you appear to be correct, Masons will only address certain issues; a bit like Jews who will rarely talk about circumcision with non Jews, some subjects are just too sensitive.

On the other hand Eleusian Mysteries are quite a delicate issue and Masons are sworn to silence on many occasions.
Secrets are one of the main attractions and one of the reason people join.

Personally I love the Greek Mysteries and I understand their original intention, unfortunately there are ingredients and rituals that just cannot be made public or it will shake the very foundations of Masonry.

I personally was only sworn to silence about the modes of recognition, and I'm part of a regular Masonic Lodge. What topics, specifically, are you suggesting that Masons are sensitive/silent about?

I'd love to help further your understanding of Freemasonry, and I'm sure Appak and Masonic Light would as well. Understanding beats ignorance, eh.

Speaking of ignorance. As ignorant as I probably am concerning these Greek mysteries/secrets you claim to have, I somehow doubt they would shake Masonry to its core. Freemasonry has survived a great deal worse - unshaken.

BUT

I would be more than happy for you to put your money where your mouth is and prove me wrong. Don't be cryptic... Spill the beans and advance your credibility, my friend.

Originally posted by Roark
I personally was only sworn to silence about the modes of recognition, and I'm part of a regular Masonic Lodge. What topics, specifically, are you suggesting that Masons are sensitive/silent about?

In hindsight I mildly regret using the word Masonry because I am making of all the grass (thin, fair and thick) one bundle.
I really meant a secret societies of similar inclination, from Fama Fraternitas, to Oto to Fraternitas Rosicruciana Antiqua.

I keep forgetting that Masonry is just the training ground for many orders.

It is not up to me to tell you, you must ask those you think are wiser than you in these matters.Perhaps Appak or Masonic Light but they will not tell you if they know and cannot tell you if they don't know.
Most Masons, on their own admittance, have lost the Word.

Personally I have a healthy respect for secrets and also I would not "cast pearls to swine" to quote your friend's earlier post.

Originally posted by interestedalways
Osbert, I didn't know there was a Gnostic Catholic Church. I would have thought the two would be at odds with each other. Actually, I have noticed that there is just about any brand of Catholic you could imagine, even Jesuit Catholics.

The Gnostic Catholic Church is entirely different from the Roman Catholic Church. The Gnostic Catholic Church is the religious body for Thelemites (disciples of the religion instituted by Aleister Crowley, the Thelemic Prophet). The Gnostic Catholic Church ordains clergy, celebrates the Gnostic Mass, baptizes communicants, performs weddings, and other sacerdotal functions similar to Christian churches.

Concerning the Jesuits, all of them are Roman Catholics. The official titile of the Jesuits is the Society of Jesus, and one must be a loyal Roman Catholic to join that Order. It was originally created to help lead the Counter-Reformation, but in more modern times is primarily involved in things like missionary work, education, and charity.

Hello all,

Originally posted by TrinitymanCould you elaborate on how you know this and I don't?

bc] What makes you think that conventional sources are going to lay it all out on the line like the Monday wash?

That's not to say that it isn't there, or that it can't be found. Recall that the Templars felt the wrath of the Church and the French Monarchy. Recall too, that the Conquistadores went into Central America (c1513 +/- not to colonize) but to destroy. Augustus Le Plongeon wrote about Free Masonry (and please spare the nonsense about how he's wrong) and some of it's origins in Central America.

So what could the Templars have found that would draw thousands to their ranks, would have angered the Church, and would lead eventually to the destruction of the civilizations in Central America?

The start of the answer is in what the ancient civilizations knew: The celestial science of the ancient Egyptians

cs
.

Originally posted by beforebc
Hello all,

Originally posted by TrinitymanCould you elaborate on how you know this and I don't?

bc] What makes you think that conventional sources are going to lay it all out on the line like the Monday wash?

Who determines what is conventional and what is not? Too many people seem to dismiss 'perceived wisdom' because it doesn't fit with their personal model of How Life Works. Conventional sources have been published, tested by peers, discussed, revised and sometimes a consensus reached by acknowledged experts in the field. It is publically available for criticism. Unconventional sources are published on personal websites with no recourse, no critisism, no idea of what the individuals credibility, history, experience or agenda might be. Or they are published and dismissed as crackpot, after due analysis.

That's not to say that it isn't there, or that it can't be found. Recall that the Templars felt the wrath of the Church and the French Monarchy. Recall too, that the Conquistadores went into Central America (c1513 +/- not to colonize) but to destroy. Augustus Le Plongeon wrote about Free Masonry (and please spare the nonsense about how he's wrong) and some of it's origins in Central America.

That's nice. Perhaps you might like to provide a link to his site, together with the reasons why you find him to be a credible and believable author; and why you prefer to believe his hypothesis in lieu of mainstream conventional thought.

So what could the Templars have found that would draw thousands to their ranks, would have angered the Church, and would lead eventually to the destruction of the civilizations in Central America?

The start of the answer is in what the ancient civilizations knew: The celestial science of the ancient Egyptians

And this has what exactly to do with freemasonry?

Originally posted by TrinitymanThat's nice. Perhaps you might like to provide a link to his site, together with the reasons why you find him to be a credible and believable author; and why you prefer to believe his hypothesis in lieu of mainstream conventional thought?

Than go with conventional thought -

.

How about two questions with firm answers.....

Are Freemasons associated with or a continuation of Knights Templar?

What was the severed head symbolic of?

Originally posted by interestedalways
How about two questions with firm answers.....

Are Freemasons associated with or a continuation of Knights Templar?

What was the severed head symbolic of?

Ah... firm answers...

OK.

1. There is no definitive answer to this question, as (masonic) historians argue either way, and the evidence is not conclusive. My personal belief is that some part of the legacy of the Templars exists within modern speculative freemasonry, particularly within the Templar degrees, but that Templarism did not evolve into freemasonry per se.

So... yes and no to the two parts of the question.

2. Not sure about the severed head. Have you got a piccy, or a website to put this into context?

Originally posted by Masonic Light
The Gnostic Catholic Church is entirely different from the Roman Catholic Church. The Gnostic Catholic Church is the religious body for Thelemites (disciples of the religion instituted by Aleister Crowley, the Thelemic Prophet). The Gnostic Catholic Church ordains clergy, celebrates the Gnostic Mass, baptizes communicants, performs weddings, and other sacerdotal functions similar to Christian churches.

Well perhaps we both have our biases... but please, lets' consider a few things before giving A. Crowley more credit than he deserves.

The Catholic Gnostic Church rituals of Thelema were not invented by the clever Hanasmuss Aleister Crowley, even though he popularized them.

The original O.T.O. practiced them before A. Crowley ever joined; and also, that Arnold Krumm-Heller's Fraternitas Rosicruciana Antiqua(F.R.A.) practiced them as well.

These same rituals had to have been practiced in the Egyptian Masonry of Cagliostro too.



Again:

LINK:

"The phrase: "Whosoever calls you Thelemites will not commit any injustice so long as he knows the word with perfection," belongs to the Gnostic Church and is not the property of Aleister Crowley or anybody else!

And if Aleister Crowley betrayed his oath by printing the sacred rituals of the Gnostic Church for the public that is not our problem, but his! The Cosmic Law already heard his case and sentenced him."




"In the superior worlds there is a Gnostic Church, the Cathedral of the Soul. In this cathedral rituals are carried out Fridays and Sundays at dawn or whenever necessary for the good of humanity. Many devotees gather at the Praetor in Astral Bodies. There are also some athletes of the Jinn science who carry their physical body to the Praetor. Thus, all of these devotees have the fortune of receiving the bread and wine…

The Gnostic Church preserves the entire Secret Doctrine of the Adorable Savior of the world. The Gnostic Church is the religion of happiness and beauty. The Gnostic Church is the virginal trunk from which Romanism and all of the other sects that adore Christ came forth. The Gnostic Church is the only church that preserves, in secret, the doctrine that Christ taught from his lips to the ears of his disciples...

We must not forget that there are rituals of Light and of Darkness. We possess the secret rituals of the Adorable Savior of the World.

Neither we scorn nor do we underestimate any religion. All religions are precious pearls linked on the golden thread of Divinity. We only affirm that Gnosis is the flame from which all religions of the Universe come forth. That is all."


- Perfect Matrimony by Samael Aun Weor

The term "Thelema" was used by some of the Gnostics and Church Fathers hundreds and hundreds of years ago as well.


And by Francois Rabelias:


en.wikipedia.org...

We, the Gnostics, can visit Nirvana even with our body of flesh and bones. Obviously, modern Theosophists will laugh at us because they know naught about these things. The unique thing that they have in their heads is an arsenal of theories. But in practicality, they are nothing but eunuchs of understanding, morbid mystics, and fornicating sybarites. I still remember a Theosophist who was a member of a Black Lodge. How terrified he flew away from a park in Cartagena(South America) when I told him that he was consciously working in the astral plane(typo?). This is the breaking point of negativity from Theosophists. They horrify themselves simply with thinking of awakening the consciousness. They are only interested in having their heads filled with “cockroaches” and in living their life asleep. Nevertheless, they say that some day they think they will enter Nirvana. Foolish boasters of wisdom, know that only those who have already passed through the High Initiation, only those who have given their last drop of blood for this humanity, will enter into Nirvana.

All men long for the High Initiation; yet, they can only reach the altar of the High Initiation with the virile member in the state of erection (explanation in next chapter).

Therefore, the Gnostic always lives heroically, always triumphant and always a rebel, like the heroes of Rabelais, who knew nothing of weakness.

The Gnostics yearn for Nirvana, but they know very well that they carry Nirvana within their sexual glands. Thus, they want to Self-realize it within themselves by means of courage.


- Samael Aun Weor's The Revolution of Beelzebub

[edit on 17-8-2006 by Tamahu]

Originally posted by interestedalways
Well, do you think the Masons are connected to the Knights Templar?

About the Gnostic Divinity IAO, The Masonic Templars and John the Baptist: ELIAO who is HELIOS, SOL, the Solar Logos.


Written by a early 19th Century Druid and FreeMason:

Godfrey Higgins' Anacalypsis


It requires no very great exertion of the imagination to form an idea in what manner the ignorant and fanatical devotees, when they applied the worship of the Lamb that taketh away the sins of the world to the man Jesus, should seize hold of and apply to him every doctrine, rite, or ceremony, which the idle traditions of the vulgar attributed to the Lamb in different countries where they happened to prevail. The God Sol, Mithra, and IAO, being the same as the Lamb of God, it seems natural enough that the ceremonies, &c., of the being passing under those names should be adopted by his followers. Hence it is that we find them all mixed together in the worship of Jesus. And, as the worship under the name of Mithra prevailed most in the different Western countries of the world, it is not surprising that his peculiar doctrines and ceremonies should most prevail in the new religion.

We have seen that Mr. Bryant, Dupuis, and others, have shewn that the worship of the constellation of Aries was the worship of the Sun in his passage through that sign, and this connects with the worship of the Lamb the different rites which were used by different nations in the worship of the God Sol—the Dominus Sol—under the different names of Hercules, Bacchus, Mithra, Adonis, &c., &c., their baptisms, oblations of bread and water, their births, deaths, resurrections after three days, and triumphs over the powers of hell and of darkness. In all this can a person be so blind as not to see the history of the God Iaw, IHS, Ihsqj, the a and w—the incarnate God—the Lamb of God sacrificed to take away the sins of the world ? As might be expected, we find this Saviour originally described and adored under the form of a Lamb. In many places of Italy, particularly at Florence, he is described as a Lamb, with the cross held by his fore-leg. But, in most places, these representations have been destroyed in compliance with the bulls or decrees above-named, which unwittingly let us into the secret, which, without them, we might have guessed at, but could not have certainly known.

Over the high altar of the cathedral at Mayence, on the Rhine, is a golden lamb, as large as life, couchant, upon a book sealed with seven seals, and surrounded with a glory. Over the high altar of the cathedral of Bon, also, there is a Lamb in silver, as large as life, couchant on a book, sealed with seven seals, and surrounded with a golden glory. In the gateway of the Middle Temple in London may be seen one of these Lambs : he holds a cross with his fore-leg, and has the sun for his head, with a lamb’s face. This is a relic of the ancient Knights Templars. In the late repairs of their building the lawyers have shewn much good taste in not destroying it. I rejoice that such of my countrymen as cannot go abroad, may see the remnant of the ancient superstition at home. I advise the Masonic Templars to add this to their eight-point red cross.

In other words, the Solar Logos, Christ, is not only worshipped in Christianity; but also in the "pagan" religions as well.

And that there is a Universal Secret Doctrine that the Brothers of the Temple-that manifests in the physical plane through various Orders, Religions, Sects, etc.-preserves throughout the Ages.

I believe they are and if they are, in fact, then didn't they find secrets in a temple and worship a severed head? If it is not a secret what was represented by the head? John the Baptist?

The severed head represents the elimination of the ego.

The Fourth Day of Genesis

If we imagine the Tower of Babel, with its confusion of tongues, this Tower represents the head.

Master Samael Aun Weor states the top of the Tower is the Moon – we have to understand this psychologically.

The moon is that mechanical mind that we have within.

The mechanicity of nature is always acting through our animal mind.

The world, the society in which we live in, is mechanical – it is controlled by the intellectuals. The robots of the Antichrist, or better say, the Intellectuals, demand to have a career in your intellect in order to survive in this mechanical society.

The intellectual animal mind is the intellect without solar light.

The intellectual animal mind in esotericism is called the Anti-Christ.

Christ is the Light of the world (Christ is not any particular person). That which is the Christ is beyond the mind.

The Cosmic Christ, the solar light, has to create and illuminate the solar mind of the initiate, so that he can comprehend the Verb, the Word of God.

The mind of the terrestrial people only sees the three dimensions, with the five senses.

We have to place the Solar Light, Christ, in our minds in order to perceive beyond the three dimensions and in order to control the animal mind; this has to be learned in Sexual Alchemy.

The whole work that we have to perform in the path of Initiation is The Absolute control of the mind.

This is not easy, but it is not impossible either– the absolute control of the mind is possible with the help of Christ: the Path, the Light and the Life.

The Fourth Day of Genesis is related with the Sun (Helios, the Solar Mind) and with the Moon (a permanent, cognizant center of gravity). We have to comprehend what these symbolize; as well as the stars (spiritual virtues of the Elohim or Cosmocreators).

When we talk of the Man, we say Manas, which is mind in Sanskrit.

The Solar Mind is just a vehicle of the Being.

Helios is related to the word Helium, which is the main element in the sun.

Elijah or Elias is Eliao in Hebrew: “EL” means God in Hebrew and “IAO” is the Verb, the prophet of the highest, the Christ-sun.

Elias symbolizes the Solar Mind of any prophet that comprehends the solar language of the Christ-Sun.

It is one thing to create the Solar Mind; it is another thing to perfect that Solar Mind; to acquire such a perfection, the elimination of the ego is required and indispensable.

All the Powers or virtues of the Solar Mind shine in the Monad, as stars in the heavens of the Spirit. These stars are related to the 24 Elders of the zodiac.

The four and twenty elders fall down before him that (through the Initiations of Fire) sat on the throne (the Cerebrospinal-Nervous-System), and worship him (the Cosmic Christ) that lives (in all those who make him flesh within) for ever and ever, and cast their crowns (Pranic spiritual gifts of their Father, Kether) before the throne (the Cerebrospinal-Nervous-System), saying:

Thou art worthy, O Lord (of the Fourth Initiation of Major Mysteries), to receive glory and honor and power: for thou hast created all things (all Solar Bodies through the Initiations of Solar Fire), and for thy pleasure (for thy garment) they are and were created.” - Revelation 4: 10-11

“Zealous of the knowledge” (Zealous of the things of the spirit), Elias the Solar Mind has the zealous of the things of God, thus he defend them because he knows that the truth cannot be comprehended by the animal mind.

John the Baptist, IEOUAMS, the seven vowels, the Verb of the man with Solar Mind who preaches in the wilderness is the incarnation of Elias (the solar spirit). He prepares the way for the Lord, the Solar Christ, the Solar Light.

Every Prophet always teaches through his solar mind. The Solar Mind is a vehicle of the Solar Light, the Christ.

The Solar Mind symbolizes the Sun, Helios, Elias, a vehicle of the solar light, the Cosmic Christ.

John 1:19-27:

And this is the record of John (IEOUAMS, the seven vowels, the Verb of the man with Solar Mind who preaches in the wilderness), when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, who art thou?

And he (the Solar Mind) confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the (Cosmic) Christ.

And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias (Helios, the Solar Logos)? And he said, I am not.

Art thou that prophet (Gedulah, the Innermost)? And he answered, No.

Then said they unto him, who art thou? That we may give an answer to them that sent us. What says thou of thyself?

He said, I am the voice (IEOUAMS the seven vowels, the Verb of the Solar Mind) of one (Spirit or Monad) crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord (the Innermost), as said the prophet Isaiah.

And they which were sent were of the Pharisees (who worship what they do not know but think they do know).

And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizes thou then, if thou be not that (Cosmic) Christ, nor Elias (Helios, the Solar Logos), neither that prophet (Gedulah, the Innermost)?

John (IEOUAMS, the seven vowels, the Verb of the man with Solar Mind) answered them, saying, I baptize with water (since I was born from the waters of Yesod): but there stands (Shaddai El Chai, the) one in the midst of your (sex), whom ye know not (because you are fornicators);

He (Shaddai El Chai) it is (Solar Fire), who coming after me is preferred before me (because it comes from the Ain Soph Aur, the Cosmic Christ), whose shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose.

The real prophet is Gedulah, the Spirit, the Innermost, that talks through the Solar Mind.

The wilderness is humanity that does not have the water of truth; they need the knowledge (Daath). Through his Solar Mind is how the prophet gives water to the thirsty. The soul is always asking for the water of knowledge.

Make straight the way of the Lord (the Innermost), as said the prophet Isaiah.

Only walking on the path of Renunciation based on Psychological Death and Voluntary Sufferings is how one makes straight the way of our Lord the Innermost. The Mind has to develop humbleness; the latter is attained when one comprehends the ego of Pride in the 49 levels of the mind.

John preaches in Judea and always wears the skin/ leather of a camel. The camel is a symbol of the Karma that we are carrying on our back. Thus by preaching the Word in the wilderness of our life is how we pay the karma that we owe.

Matthew 11: 11:

Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women (in the Ninth Sphere) there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist (because he represents all the Solar Bodies of the Earthly Man IEOUAN from Malkuth to Tiphereth, the Intuitive Mind): notwithstanding he that is least in the Kingdom of Heaven is greater than he (because one needs to pass through the total elimination of Nahemah, Herodias, that symbolizes the egos and the Karma of Adultery, as well as Herod that symbolizes our mental sexual degeneration).

Thus only Salome, the Animal Soul (Nephesh) can be absorbed by our Being on the condition of being purified in the sexual dance of the Seven Veils.

Herod is our animal mind that John preaches against.

The egos of the seven capital sins are disintegrated after having the mind passed through the decapitation in each one of the seven bodies: 7 x 7 = 49 times. This is how the Great Whore (the animal mind, Nahemah, Jezebel, Herodias) is eliminated and the Interior Buddha, the illuminated one, achieves the total control of the whole mind.

The dragon Mara must be comprehended and eliminated in Meditation.

We need to know ourselves in order to be beheaded.

We need the Fire of the Kundalini, the Flaming Sword, to perform the beheading.

When we annihilate the ego, we then crystallize the stars in our own heaven (our Consciousness). Each star is a Virtue that connects our consciousness to the Elohim, the Cosmocreators.

Before creating within our interior our own Sun, Moon and Stars, we are just marionettes move by the mechanical forces of nature.

Whether the sacrifice of the Christic Drama manifests as violent physical death or not; the symbolism, and the Internal Sacrifice is always there.

Solar Conscience



There exist changes in the lunar conscience and there exist changes of consciousness. Every improvement in the lunar conscience originates changes within it. These types of changes in the lunar conscience are superficial and useless. What we need is a change of consciousness. When we dissolve the lunar consciousness then the solar consciousness is born within us.

It is necessary for the sinning Adam to die within us so that Adam Christ can be born within us. We grasp the flaming sword when we liberate the solar electronic energy that is enclosed within the seminal atoms. .

Perseus descends into the Flaming Forge of Vulcan in order to decapitate the sinning Adam (Medusa) with his flaming sword. John the Baptist is decapitated and Christ is crucified in order to save the world. The slaughter of the innocent children (the Initiates) is a repetitive action throughout the Initiation. This is how the solar consciousness is born within us; this type of consciousness contains in itself the knower, the knowledge and the known thing, three in one and one in three. The solar consciousness is omnipresent and omni-penetrating. The solar consciousness liberates the Human Being from the fatal wheel of the centuries.