Can anyone answer this ??

Ori ginally posted by shihulud
Where do you get this ascending chain of conciousness and intelligence from? What pattern shows that there is a supreme being? Where do you get this information from? Your logic has lost me - First its OK to assume that there are intelligent life forms everywhere but not OK to assume that there is NO supreme being - where's the logic in that? Lets reverse it and assume there is a god but no intelligent life anywhere - is that logic?
G

I get the ascending chain of consciousness and intelligence from all of the life forms around us....insects to man and everything in between. Each creature has its particular level of consciousness and intelligence. From this pattern of intelligent life forms I infer that the pattern continues throughout creation but we are not able of observe the continuation of this pattern because we are bound to this one little planet.

It would be grossly illogical to observe such a vast variety of living conscious creatures and then assume that it all ends here. I contend that this extensive "pattern" of conscious creatures with varying degrees of intelligence are a small section of a great chain of such life forms that has at its highest end, which is actually its Origin -- the Supreme Intelligence which is God.

So because you infer and contend that intelligence expands to a supreme being I'm Illogical for disagreeing?
What about here on Earth with Beer Elves - the most intelligent species on our planet and also the universe. They are more supreme than your god, have done much more to help mankind than your god and there is more than one of them. In fact they probably created your god because they are so superior to everything.
If you dont believe me ask your god, he'll tell you.


G

Originally posted by shihulud
So because you infer and contend that intelligence expands to a supreme being I'm Illogical for disagreeing?
What about here on Earth with Beer Elves - the most intelligent species on our planet and also the universe. They are more supreme than your god, have done much more to help mankind than your god and there is more than one of them. In fact they probably created your god because they are so superior to everything.
If you dont believe me ask your god, he'll tell you.
G

Shihulud, you are illogical because you don't apply logic in your thinking...not because you disagree with me. All you do is disagree. You never present any logical reasons for disagreeing. Probably because you haven't any. LOL!

Here's what I've come to believe over the years. There is no God the way the Bible or the Koran or Tora describe it. God is not a beardy old man sitting on a cloud. God didn't create the universe, God IS the universe. God is the whole, the sum of every living (and dead) thing in the universe, and thus we are all part of God.

The planets, the stars and everyting else in the universe is made from the same particles that at some point originated at the same place (if you believe in a big bang type scenario). So if the whole universe expanded from one single point, then we can all be said to be one. Hell, even science pretty much agrees that every human on the planet is related somewhere way back.

So God cannot help us or save us from evil, as he is only the sum of all of us. Jesus might well have been the son of God, but so are the rest of us, so stop looking for a salvation in priests, prophets etc. You make your own destiny.

Originally posted by DrLeary
God didn't create the universe, God IS the universe.

My position is the opposite of yours. To me, God is the Creator, and the cosmos is His Creation. I can easily understand, however, why you believe the created universe is God. I think it is because the universe is so immense and beautiful, and it reflects the beauty of the Holy One who created it.

The planets, the stars and everyting else in the universe is made from the same particles that at some point originated at the same place (if you believe in a big bang type scenario). So if the whole universe expanded from one single point, then we can all be said to be one.

This origin of the universe from a single point indicates that it has a single source. I believe that single source to be its Creator -- God.

So God cannot help us or save us from evil, as he is only the sum of all of us. Jesus might well have been the son of God, but so are the rest of us, so stop looking for a salvation in priests, prophets etc. You make your own destiny.

Since God is the Creator of everything that exists, He is greater than everything that exists. Therefore, He can indeed save us from evil and from anything else. Men are mere creatures like everything else in creation and may be smaller and less powerful than some of the other creatures in the universe. Some of those creatures may be evil(demons), and may seek to harm man. In such a situation man needs God to save him since he is apparently not as powerful as such foes.

I say apparently because I am not sure that demons, some or all, are actually more powerful than man. In some cases, they may not be, but of one thing I AM certain, and that is that God is more powerful than all demons....even collectively.

That's cool SkyWay!=) We could probably argue both ways about the true nature of God, but I think there are nearly as many ways to look at it as there are people in the world.

What about other religions? Are buddhists waiting for the return of Buddah? Another reincarnation of Krishna? Will Muhammed - peace be with him - be back? I think alot of religions are waiting for some kind of second coming...

Originally posted by DrLeary
That's cool SkyWay!=) We could probably argue both ways about the true nature of God, but I think there are nearly as many ways to look at it as there are people in the world.

I agree with you that every person has a slightly different perception of God. This is because we are all unique individuals. It is also the reason that everyone of us sees the world, and everthing in it, in a unique way. We can know the same person and yet see that person in different ways. This also happens when we read the same book, or see the same movie, or listen to same song....every person may enjoy and absorb their contents in personal/unique ways.

What about other religions? Are buddhists waiting for the return of Buddah? Another reincarnation of Krishna? Will Muhammed - peace be with him - be back? I think alot of religions are waiting for some kind of second coming...

Yes. There is an expectation in almost every religion that their venerated teachers will return. In the Christian religion we consider Christ to be more than a Teacher, however, we consider Him to be God incarnate....and we have a sense that His return is very near! By very near I don't mean tomorrow or this year necessarily, but within the next 10 to 20 years, but no one can say for certain that it WON'T be TOMORROW! None of us really knows the day nor the hour.

Originally posted by SkyWay

Shihulud, you are illogical because you don't apply logic in your thinking...not because you disagree with me. All you do is disagree. You never present any logical reasons for disagreeing. Probably because you haven't any. LOL!

Wait a minute, So if I dont agree with what you say about intelligence and supreme beings then I'm illogical? My statement on beer elves is as valid as yours on god. Not that I believe in beer elves either (although their existence is still one of debate - see below) but the argument is the same - you say god is the most intelligent creator while I say that beer elves created your god and therefore more intelligent than your god. As you must have FAITH in beer elves just as you must have faith in god then I dont see why my statement is any more illogical than yours. Its just now that beer elves are better than god and you dont like it.

P.S. Beer Elves are the unseen creatures that turn your can of beer when you are holding it, so that when you drink it the beer misses your mouth and runs down your chin. They also make you drop your beer and spill it everywhere - This is to give the elves some beer. You must have felt their presence before??

Originally posted by DrLeary
I think alot of religions are waiting for some kind of second coming...

I think most of them are waiting for the first coming LOL. But I like your god is the universe post - not an entity but an energy of creation , nice.

G

[edit on 24-8-2006 by shihulud]

Originally posted by tommy1979
I'm was a roman catholic for the first 20 yrs of my life. So i'm aware that many people especially christians await the return of Christ. I don't want to hear about the " end of days", or nuclear war, etc..... How about the everyday misery and suffering in the world. The millions of depressed people, hungry, alone, etc. Wouldn't now be a good time for God to show up and help his people........

God never left His people, His people turned their back on him. He allows us free choice, and some people think they can do better on their own - I feel sorry for them - but you can't force them into seeing things for what they are.

Originally posted by tommy1979
Why not now? i'm just making a statement, i'm not saying we've suffered more than others, but when is enough

Enoughs been enough for a long dang time! Problem is, people want the freedom to be gay, the freedom to buy/sell sex and make and watch porn, people want to take what they think is coming to them ... people are corrupt. That's the bottom line.

[edit on 24-8-2006 by SkyWay]

Originally posted by shihulud

Originally posted by SkyWay
Shihulud, you are illogical because you don't apply logic in your thinking...not because you disagree with me. All you do is disagree.

Wait a minute, So if I dont agree with what you say about intelligence and supreme beings then I'm illogical?

Shihulud, read what I wrote, and then read your reply to it in the quotes above.

You seem to be replying to something I did not say. I clearly stated in the quote above that you don't use logic in your statements. THAT is why you are illogical.
For someone who boasts so much about being logical, you use logic very little. You also seem to have difficulty understanding what you read.

you say god is the most intelligent creator while I say that beer elves created your god and therefore more intelligent than your god.

There is evidence and logic in support of the assertion that an intelligent Creator (God) exists -- the design and orderly functioning of the universe.

There is no evidence nor logic in your whimsical notion about beer elves.
You seem to apply much more whimsy than logic in your thinking.

P.S. Beer Elves are the unseen creatures that turn your can of beer when you are holding it, so that when you drink it the beer misses your mouth and runs down your chin. They also make you drop your beer and spill it everywhere - This is to give the elves some beer. You must have felt their presence before??

Too much beer, rather than elves, can make you messy and cause you to spill all over yourself. It can also make you think you are seeing elves...among other things. Of course, this is what I have been told since I don't drink alcoholic beverages.


[edit on 24-8-2006 by SkyWay]

I would like to answer your questions in a more scientific way. I do not see God as someone or something outside of here, or somewhere else or existing as a single entity.
We have through Quantum Physics found Pure Energy. All the descriptions of Pure Energy matches exactly with the biblical God or Father of All, considering it takes Pure energy to create any forms or beings. In another thread of mine... OBSERVATION
I explain how we manipulate pure energy and how God is everywhere... etc...

"Awaiting Christ"
"Awaiting Love"
= The Exact same sentence...
People don't understand love at all.. Love is All Pure energy, all energy period. But its energy observed in a all encompassing manner not ignoring any part of the pure energy (god) present.

So it really isn't a matter of Pure energy or God showing up to 'save' his people... because Pure energy/God is everywhere all at once.... Its a matter of Observing things with Christ, or with love... Hence the only way to heaven is through Christ, through observing things with LOVE, all encompassing, PRO life, in all aspects and manipulating energy into higher forms (turning killers/rapists) into better people, instead of locking them up, (ignoring their energy, or god)

Originally posted by SkyWay
There is evidence and logic in support of the assertion that an intelligent Creator (God) exists -- the design and orderly functioning of the universe.
There is no evidence nor logic in your whimsical notion about beer elves.
You seem to apply much more whimsy than logic in your thinking.

[edit on 24-8-2006 by SkyWay]

Skyway I was being sarcastic about the beer elves (although you never know if the wee buggers exist). I can see NO evidence to support a claim of an intelligent creator even with the 'design' of the universe. There is about as much evidence for beer elves as there is for a god so if your god created the universe then my beer elves created him. You dont know if its true or not.


G

A good parable my cousin told me kind of applies, but before I get to that I would like to explain the same thing everyone else has been saying .. lol
God is pure energy, which forms all things... therefore in every kind of form God exists... God is in everything and of everything, just like saying pure energy is in everything and of everything.. this being quantum science.... now for the parable

ITS LIKE a tree, trying to be a rock
we think we're a rock, because we're told we're a rock
but in fact we are a tree pretending to be a rock
just be a tree
we (trees) have roots, rocks dont have roots

some people might get that, I know others won't but I suppose it just means that we are pretending to be something because thats what we are told we are, human fleshy things, when in fact we are pure energy, or quanta, which is pure awareness...

I would like to point you in the direction of my thread which applies to this subject, I have refined the older version
Information on Creating Reality, (Observation)



[edit on 25/8/06 by dnero6911]

Originally posted by shihulud
Skyway I was being sarcastic about the beer elves (although you never know if the wee buggers exist). I can see NO evidence to support a claim of an intelligent creator even with the 'design' of the universe. There is about as much evidence for beer elves as there is for a god so if your god created the universe then my beer elves created him. You dont know if its true or not.
G

I know you were being sarcastic, and I was being flip.

Seriously though, I think that we interpret evidence differently. To me, the universe provides more than enough evidence to prove the existence of an intelligent Creator....without even considering miraculous cures, and signs, and apparitions, etc. The way I see the universe, if IT can't convince anyone who looks at it closely of intelligent design, then probably there isn't much, if anything, that will.

Even scientists can draw different conclusions from the same set of facts. It's understanding the same things differently.

Time will prove that my interpretation is the correct one. The proof is getting closer every day. EVERYONE shall see the return of Jesus Christ in glory! But some will rejoice, while others will be unprepared.

And regarding the elves...the only elves I have ever seen were in movies such as those produced by Walt Disney, and not in any bar.

Originally posted by SkyWay
Seriously though, I think that we interpret evidence differently. To me, the universe provides more than enough evidence to prove the existence of an intelligent Creator....without even considering miraculous cures, and signs, and apparitions, etc. The way I see the universe, if IT can't convince anyone who looks at it closely of intelligent design, then probably there isn't much, if anything, that will.

Even scientists can draw different conclusions from the same set of facts. It's understanding the same things differently.

Time will prove that my interpretation is the correct one. The proof is getting closer every day. EVERYONE shall see the return of Jesus Christ in glory! But some will rejoice, while others will be unprepared.

And regarding the elves...the only elves I have ever seen were in movies such as those produced by Walt Disney, and not in any bar.

I totally agree that we should all make up our own minds (however some people like to be told what to think and believe) based on the understanding of the given information. You see god in things and I dont, I agree to disagree on these points but the thing that I dont understand and dislike about most believers is your last paragraph. Basically your saying "I'M RIGHT AND YOUR WRONG JUST WAIT AND SEE".
How long must we wait then? Will you be alive to see it? If its taken 2000 years to get this far why cant it be another 4000 years? What happens when NOTHING happens and if your interpretation is the wrong one? I suppose you last sentence would ring true then as well "But some will rejoice, while others will be unprepared."


G

Originally posted by shihulud
I totally agree that we should all make up our own minds (however some people like to be told what to think and believe) based on the understanding of the given information.

Of course we should make up our own minds. That is why we were created with freewill. All I am doing is presenting my understanding of this universe we are all living in for your consideration. Then it is up to you to choose whether you accept it or not. But we must all realize that there are always consequences for the choices we make, and we must be prepared to accept those consequences -- Heaven or ?

You see god in things and I dont, I agree to disagree on these points but the thing that I dont understand and dislike about most believers is your last paragraph. Basically your saying "I'M RIGHT AND YOUR WRONG JUST WAIT AND SEE".

This describes everyone, including yourself, who has convictions that are not shared by everyone else. I believe in my views as much as you are convinced of yours. I am just stating it directly.

How long must we wait then? Will you be alive to see it? If its taken 2000 years to get this far why cant it be another 4000 years? What happens when NOTHING happens and if your interpretation is the wrong one? I suppose you last sentence would ring true then as well "But some will rejoice, while others will be unprepared."

By the looks of things going on in the world at this time, I am quite certain the human race does not need to wait another 4000 years for the fulfillment of Biblical prophecies pertaining to the return of Christ. In fact, I think these prophecies will occur within 10 to 20 years. But then, again, this involves my interpretation of evidence in the world which you may interpret differently. Time will prove who is right. The clock is ticking.....

Originally posted by tommy1979
I'm was a roman catholic for the first 20 yrs of my life. So i'm aware that many people especially christians await the return of Christ. I don't want to hear about the " end of days", or nuclear war, etc..... How about the everyday misery and suffering in the world. The millions of depressed people, hungry, alone, etc. Wouldn't now be a good time for God to show up and help his people........

Dear Tommy,

What makes you think Christ will return in flesh and save everyone, when people have decided to ignore him? And where do you suppose he might be 'hiding' during all this pain and suffering? Has he gone anywhere?

Blessings,
Cinosamitna

[edit on 27-8-2006 by Cinosamitna]

A lot of the hype about the end of days comes from the protestant movements of the 1830s and 1840s. I really do not see in Revelations anything that says a physical, world-wide, evil-induced situation will prompt Jesus to return.

I get the impression that humanity is not a man turning the knob on a safe and when the right combination is hit, Jesus will pop out. I do know that people die; therefore, we will each have our end of days. If I look at the book that way, I see myself as going through personal tribulations that I have caused and that I must fix.