Israel lost war first time

Originally posted by pavil
Show me multiple instances of Israeli violation of Lebanese territory without some prior provocations by either Hezbollah or Palestinian elements. That Lebanon did not fill the vaccuum in Southern Lebanon is the main cause of the current crisis, which incidentally, was one of the the causes of the initial 1982 Israeli invasion. Having armed militas in your country, doing whatever they want is never a good idea, especially when those militias wage war against a neighboring country, who is the military power in the region.

The UN is not the "general world" for you I take it.

OK here is the the report from the General World for you. I didn't need this to know what I have heard through word of mouth to be true.
I was too lazy to look through all the reports but in a nutshell this is all of them that I got from a Blogsite and I will link the UNIFIL site as well

This guy sorted them all out.
nevadathunder.com...

Interim report of the secretary-general on the UN Interim Force in Lebanon, April 30, 2001:

“Since the resolution was adopted [i.e., since Israel’s withdrawal], the situation has remained essentially unchanged, although there were further developments in the dispute over Shab’a farms area. As before, there were frequent minor ground violations of the Blue Line. There were, in addition, almost daily violations of the line by Israeli aircraft which penetrated deeply into Lebanese airspace. I have been in touch with the parties concerned and other interested parties to urge respect for the Blue Line and to avert further escalation.”

Report of the secretary-general for the period from July 18, 2000, to Jan. 18, 2001:

“Israeli violations of Lebanese air space, which had resumed after Hizbollah’s attack on 7th October, continued on an almost daily basis.”

UNIFIL LEBANON Documents


Are you going to count Sheepherders as Hizbollah and fishermen as being an antagonistic force?

Mod Edit: Reduced Excessive External Quote.

[edit on 14/8/2006 by Mirthful Me]

No WAY!

Haha, just joking. Good find!


Just get ready for some tiresome "That dude who wrote and reported that is clearly an anti-Semite and so's yer momma!" comments.

Originally posted by Jakomo
No WAY!

Haha, just joking. Good find!


Just get ready for some tiresome "That dude who wrote and reported that is clearly an anti-Semite and so's yer momma!" comments.

That word anti-semite has kind of lost its punch. its bandied about so much and for the worst reasons, mostly when you think Israel is wrong.

I wasn't worried that they would think the site was anti-semetic but that UNIFIL itself was anti-semetic and that they were pro-arab and that its all lies.

Originally posted by ThePieMaN
Are you going to count Sheepherders as Hizbollah and fishermen as being an antagonistic force?

No of course not but if you look at this, it's something different:

27 May 2006 - An IDF soldier was wounded when Katyushas were fired at an army base at Mt. Meron in the upper Galilee.



7 Oct 2000 - Kidnapping: Three IDF soldiers: Adi Avitan, Omer Soued and Binyamin Avraham were kidnapped by the Hizballah from the Mt. Dov sector
.www.mfa.gov.il... F-4274-B80D-6BBD1803E8A7,frameless.htm?NRMODE=Published

There are 17 other incidents where either someone one killed or wounded by attacks from the Lebanese side of the border

And even in your sources you see things like:

“Israeli violations of Lebanese air space, which had resumed after Hizbollah’s attack on 7th October, continued on an almost daily basis.”

A cycle of disruptions and armed exchanges across the Blue Line commenced on 5 May.

Your sources seem to have left out this in an early 2003 UN report (probably an oversight on their part):

can't external source it due to PDF file:
Paraphrasing:
Jan 21 Hezbollah launches 56 mortar rounds.

Hezbollah increased the number or anti aircraft guns, one which was in close proximity to UNIFIL post 8-32 for several months.
daccessdds.un.org... ?OpenElement

Here's from Jan to July 2002

Again Paraphrasing due to PDF file: (and again, probably and oversight)
March 30 to April 13 2002,
UNIFIL records 152 anti tank missiles, 1,246 mortars, 28 Kasuskas, 11 surface to air missiles and hundreds of small arms rounds in the Sheba farms area.

daccessdds.un.org... ?OpenElement

Those UN reports are full of details, those were the only two I had time to look at and there was more in each of those reports even. There has been enough "antagonistic forces" around for Israel to take notice and action. Don't make it sound like Israel is attacking Shepards in response to rocket attacks.

It really comes down to Lebanon not taking control of their own land in the south of Lebanon. Let's hope this ceasefire allows them to do that finally.

Originally posted by pavil
And even in your sources you see things like:
“Israeli violations of Lebanese air space, which had resumed after Hizbollah’s attack on 7th October, continued on an almost daily basis.”

A cycle of disruptions and armed exchanges across the Blue Line commenced on 5 May.

Your sources seem to have left out this in an early 2003 UN report (probably an oversight on their part):

Thats why I left it there. I saw the Hizbollah attack, but you are still going on as though Israel was never guilty. They recorded about 10,000 incursions by Israel, and about 100 by Hizbollah. Flying at low altitude causing sonic booms is not an act of kindness Pavil..I don't know where you are from but its just not done. Do you know how much damage a jet fighter can do flying over residential areas? Thousands of homes in a big huge swath can get damaged. The houses there are not all like brick and mortar houses in the USA.

I also put the link directly to the UNIFIL site so that anyone can check.



[edit on 14-8-2006 by ThePieMaN]

Originally posted by ThePieMaN
Thats why I left it there. I saw the Hizbollah attack,

Well…then of course you do realize there is more than one “attack” by Hezbollah listed throughout the years of reports you linked...in fact there are numerous Hezbollah attacks…and as documented the vast majority are instigated by Hezbollah…period.

Originally posted by ThePieMaN
They recorded about 10,000 incursions by Israel, and about 100 by Hizbollah. Flying at low altitude causing sonic booms is not an act of kindness

First off…Hezbollah is NOT the Lebanese military…Hezbollah’s acts are not those of Lebanon…or are they?

Mentioning UN interim field reports…not all Israeli air incursions involved “sonic booms”, get that strait……Furthermore, a “sonic boom” is a far more desirable option than dropping bombs and missiles…the point gets across…yes? It’s not hard to cognitively understand this is it?

Hezbollah has staged attacks, cross border raids, military campaigns, kidnappings (not just this year's), launched thousands of documented missiles and mortar rounds, exploded ‘road side bombs’…all prior to this buffer conflict…the UN reports acknowledge Israel as responding and NOT instigating through report after report, year after year…check your own UN source …oh yeah…the current ceasefire recognizes Hezbollah as the aggressor/instigator…correct?

Secondly…who exactly is “they” that have come-up with this 10:1 ratio?...a majority of the Israeli incursions involved reconnaissance, not martial action… and specifically reconnaissance of a group of self proclaimed militants…any nation that has the air resources and capability would do the same especially given the extesive martial works that were being implaced, year after year (or do you think the Lebanese government would gleefully provide pictures?) …the remainder of the incursions were in response to attacks into Israel or against the IDF…

Originally posted by ThePieMaN
I also put the link directly to the UNIFIL site so that anyone can check.

Use it.

mg

Originally posted by missed_gear
First off…Hezbollah is NOT the Lebanese military…Hezbollah’s acts are not those of Lebanon…or are they?

Seems like you're missing a gear there... *looking at name* missed_gear... I had no idea, now that's just funny.


[edit on 14-8-2006 by AnAbsoluteCreation]

I hold no sympathy for Hezbollah or any other terrorist group. Further more, I would agree that countries that provide safe harbor to these groups be dealt with. And that is exactly what Isreal set out to do.

This will be a short lived cease fire. The Hezbos will continue. Without a conflict with Isreal, they are rebels without a cause.

Isreal has not lost this war, and this war will continue, as it has for decades.

I am dissapointed that Isreal buckled under the pressure of world opinion. They should have carried on until all objectives were met.

Hezbollah wrote a check it couldn't cash. Olmert warned, and acted on that warning. I respect that. Isreal was defeated by world opinion, not Hezbollah.

Why are people so pro lebonon? Do you think they care about civlians when they bomb a bus or restaurant? If not then why are they making a fuss about their civilains they are not we are. As far as I AM CONCERNED THEY WOULD BLOW up their own just to get the propaganda in their favour. If Lebanon want to help get rid of the terroists too before they make another 10years of revenge attacks and it starts all over again. The war has not ended there is more to come Isreal is not defeated its still a nation and its still here, I think I know who has more losses and the world sympathied with them.

Originally posted by The time lord
Why are people so pro lebonon? Do you think they care about civlians when they bomb a bus or restaurant? If not then why are they making a fuss about their civilains they are not we are. As far as I AM CONCERNED THEY WOULD BLOW up their own just to get the propaganda in their favour. If Lebanon want to help get rid of the terroists too before they make another 10years of revenge attacks and it starts all over again. The war has not ended there is more to come Isreal is not defeated its still a nation and its still here, I think I know who has more losses and the world sympathied with them.

Whats that about bombing Buses and Restuarants? I think you've got the wrong country, mate.

Hezbollah rarely, if ever, uses suicide attacks and then only against military targets. I mean, they might all just be silly ragheads to you, but there are different groups and and different people's in that part of the world.

I think your confused with the terrorists in Hamas, you know, the Palestinians?

28 Apr 2001 - A 60 year-old Israeli man was found stabbed to death in Kfar Ba'aneh, near Carmiel in Galilee. The terrorists responsible for the attack were apprehended in July. Six members of a Hezbollah-linked Palestinian terrorist cell responsible for the murder were arrested in July. The murder was the initiation rite of the organization.

This is just one account, guess this terrorist organsation is has more rank than hamas to get in usually as lack of trust to do so palistinians join in the fun to fight with them.

Yes they do fight Isreal's army does not mean they are not terrorists and uaually at the expence of using human shields. www.washingtonpost.com...



[edit on 14-8-2006 by The time lord]

So what about I kidnap British soldier because UK has invaded China in 1840? A militry force being one country stride over border to attack soldiers even kidnapping them who belong to other country, don't you think that is national terrorism?
Even far in China we know clearly this war waged by Iran who are behind the curtain because of nuclear station crisis is being imminent.

Originally posted by The time lord
28 Apr 2001 - A 60 year-old Israeli man was found stabbed to death in Kfar Ba'aneh, near Carmiel in Galilee. The terrorists responsible for the attack were apprehended in July. Six members of a Hezbollah-linked Palestinian terrorist cell responsible for the murder were arrested in July. The murder was the initiation rite of the organization.

[edit on 14-8-2006 by The time lord]

I highlighted the important part there. It would not be unknown for Hezbollah to have contacts with the palestinians, as alot do reside within Lebanon now, but it is a far stretch to say a Palestinian Group (I'm guessing Islamic Jihad) IS Hezbollah, which is Leabanese.



[edit on 14/8/06 by stumason]

Originally posted by The time lord
Yes they do fight Isreal's army does not mean they are not terrorists and uaually at the expence of using human shields. www.washingtonpost.com...

Brilliant reply

Originally posted by ThePieMaN
The UN asked that in the spirit of the cease fire that they stop now if possible. What does israel do? Get in a few shots by dropping bombs all along the Syrian-Lebanese border killing people for the last few days. Frikkin LOSERS killed a woman and her 3 children. Bombed a bridge killed civilians then came back and bombed the rescuers trying to help them. The word coward is even too good a word for these animals.

Are you really paying attention to whats going on ThePieMan? BOTH sides were fighting continuously until the cease fire. This includes Israel and this includes Hezbollah. I sense your bias, and its ok to choose a side, but just state the facts.

As far as Israel losing the war. I think thats a misjudgement. There is something a lot larger going on. A larger plan in place. I think Israel is doing exactly what they want. To tell you the truth, I do not believe that Hezbollah can honor the cease fire. Even if they do, it will be short lived. Irans decision comes in a little over a week. Hezbollahs largest missle threat and first responce to bombings of Irans nuclear sites has been weakened on the direct border of Israel and Lebanon. That is Israel most direct threat in response. Syria has not threatened to attack Israel is Iran is bombed. Israel was enabled politically for a short time to create a buffer for itself. It needs a temporary border while this Iran thing is figured out.

Originally posted by stumason

Originally posted by The time lord
28 Apr 2001 - A 60 year-old Israeli man was found stabbed to death in Kfar Ba'aneh, near Carmiel in Galilee. The terrorists responsible for the attack were apprehended in July. Six members of a Hezbollah-linked Palestinian terrorist cell responsible for the murder were arrested in July. The murder was the initiation rite of the organization.

[edit on 14-8-2006 by The time lord]

I highlighted the important part there. It would not be unknown for Hezbollah to have contacts with the palestinians, as alot do reside within Lebanon now, but it is a far stretch to say a Palestinian Group (I'm guessing Islamic Jihad) IS Hezbollah, which is Leabanese.



[edit on 14/8/06 by stumason]

Well my friend, how or say what will you define I come to your country just kill or kidnap your soldier without reason or reason is your country has invade my country before when 1911 or so?

Originally posted by AnAbsoluteCreation
Seems like you're missing a gear there... *looking at name* missed_gear... I had no idea, now that's just funny.

:lol

I'm glad your laughing at the the destruction of Lebanon due to the hubris of Hezbollah, even though I don't know what exactly you are laughing at. I'm pretty sure that most of Lebanon is not laughing due to the damage that Hezbollah has wrought upon their country, since they are not the elected government of Lebanon.

When will you face facts, Lebaonon was evacutated by Israel in mid 2000, acknowledged by the UN, and stlll Hezbollah continued to attack them on Israeli occupied land, claming a piece of Lebanese land, even though the UN had acknowledged Israel's leaving Lebanon proper and had deterimined Sheba Farms as belonging to Syria at best historically, since it was captured from Syria, not Lebanon, in the 1967 war and the preponderance of pre 1967 maps show it to be Syrian.

To keep making it sound as if the state of Israel has territorial ambitions on Lebanese territory is plain wrong. Lebanon's central government's continued lack of control of it's Southern border, through no fault of anyone except the Lebanese government and thrid party milita's, is the main reason for this current problem. Research your history. Lebanon and Israel have always had defined borders.

Originally posted by emile

Well my friend, how or say what will you define I come to your country just kill or kidnap your soldier without reason or reason is your country has invade my country before when 1911 or so?

Sorry matey. I know english isn't your strong point but I don't follow. i think I know what your asking, but it is confusing and I want to answer you properly..

When will you face facts, Lebaonon was evacutated by Israel in mid 2000, acknowledged by the UN

Actually, according to the UN, Israeli patrols have violated the Blue Line on pretty much a daily basis since 2000. Israeli snipers have also been shooting Lebanese from across the border, most recently a 15yo shepard in February.

Far from being an "unprovoked" attack, Hezbollah's battle with the patrol that lit off this round of hostilities was part of a tit-for-tat exchange that's been going on since 2000, and it's not even clear that the shootout happened inside Israeli territory.

Originally posted by xmotex

When will you face facts, Lebaonon was evacutated by Israel in mid 2000, acknowledged by the UN

Actually, according to the UN, Israeli patrols have violated the Blue Line on pretty much a daily basis since 2000. Israeli snipers have also been shooting Lebanese from across the border, most recently a 15yo shepard in February.

Nice how you chopped my quote and felt free to only answer part of it. What about the rest of it?